Video Footage Safe Thread

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Yeah i see what you mean. Pros all end up the follow through in the same position woth the upper arm horizontal pointing forward and lower arm almost vertical above that.

Unfortunately the tables are public tables with some errors and machine can't shoot faster. I could make it shoot lower by angling it with a wedge though

1. The robot should not shoot lower, it should shoot higher. You want the ball to bounce. It is better to practice strokes in the beginning with slower high balls than to practice with skidding low balls. You want the ball to bounce then you hit it.
2. Don't try to copy the pros in abstract, post a video you doing a flat hit and then we can tell you what to do to get to a topspin. "Trying to hit like a pro does" without placing it in the context of how you generally hit the ball is the source of a lot of trouble. The pros stay extremely low and lean forward. Mere mortals do not need to finish so high most of the time because they don't lean as far forward.

 
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Yeah. No need to change the robot or the angle. That is the equipment you have. Find the table that is the least messed up so the bounce is as good as you can get it. For the rest, what NextLevel said. I was just pointing out that the robot and the bounce are two things that are not ideal for you. When you can't change them, you do what you can.

I did think of one other thing:
Self hitting may be a good alternative to the robot.

In that video, for self hitting FH, I am all the way to the side of the table so I can take the ball while it is over the table. Also, I am letting the ball bounce 2x rather than rushing to take it on the first bounce. To me, this feels almost like I am taking a ball that is coming towards me even though it is a self hit. Also, how I bounce the ball, it is bouncing towards the back edge of the table. With a bucket of balls you can jam your hand in there and grab a bunch. And you can get a rhythm with how I am self hitting. It may be worth trying to see if it is useful.
 
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Yeah. No need to change the robot or the angle.

Or, as NextLevel said, making it shoot a little higher. And I agree with NextLevel that you definitely don't want it to aim lower. You just want a ball to practice the stroke. Which is why I thought of self hitting.

 
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Btw i don't know why I finish so high on the flat hits (first 20 seconds of video). It felt like I would finish much flatter but I'm still lifting the bat pretty high.
 

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Hey Dominik,

I actually really like the top spin you are getting. In an amateur matches, spin beats speed every day.

Some quick observations…..

1. Get lower. You are a big guy like me, and whilst you’ll never get as low as the shorter guys, you would still benefit from being a little lower.

2. Regarding the “flat” hits that NL and Carl mentioned, you’d be amazed at just how “flat” it should be (a lot of people struggle with this).

I think part of the issue is how slow the ball is coming to you. By the time it’s ready to be hit, it’s dropping a lot, forcing you to lift.

If you imagine a clock, your bat is starting around the 5 o clock mark, and it’s finishing at 11 or 12 o clock.

When I “knock up” with someone before a game, those initial FH to FH’s are more like 3 o clock to 9 o clock (4 to 10 at the very most).

The speed and timing of the ball gives it enough topspin to go over the net, you don’t need to add additional topspin by lifting or spinning the ball.

Try setting the robot to hit them quicker (the same sort of pace that you see people knocking up before a game).

Other than that, great progress!

 
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Btw i don't know why I finish so high on the flat hits (first 20 seconds of video). It felt like I would finish much flatter but I'm still lifting the bat pretty high.

NDH said it all, so read what he said carefully. You are a hardworking guy, I wish you could get good coaching in person.

Get closer to the table, get a bit wider and try to not drop the paddle or straighten the arm - keep the elbow at the bottom of the stroke throughout the stroke. When you flat hit, your paddle should not drop below your elbow. The bend in your elbow should be the lowest point in your whole arm.

Slap the ball a bit. Don't brush or spin it, slap it a bit. You can do light topspin but you need to slap the ball. Your arm is finishing high partly because you are not slapping the ball and you are trying to spin it.

 
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https://youtu.be/-z6_LpU3Zx8


Made a new video FH and BH. Still doesn't look pretty but I feel I can swing faster and get more spin on it.

Playing with a ball is too difficult. Better to just play in the air first. It seems like you are holding hard in the racket, so the forearm is tense. Need to relax to get movement in the elbowjoint. Try to think that the elbow do not need to go much further than your body so try to stop the elbow and let the forearm snap forward. Could basically just start with holding your biceps with the other hand and just snap the forarm together and back. Once again i want to emphasize that by playing with a ball this will take much much more longer time to get good. It is just too difficult. Playing only in the air, without a ball in front of a mirror or the camera you will develop much much more faster. Then the next step would be make the robot send balls at really low frequency so you have the time to do correctly. Since the spin comes mostly from the forearm exercises at third step would be, standing far away so the ball drops, then you need to create an arc.Can probably do this by yourself by dropping the ball at the floor then loop. Need to have the ball lower then the net so you need to create and arc, which is possible by using the forearm. Also half long balls will be good as well since you need to use the forearm to get the spin to get the ball over the net and you do not have the room to use the whole body.

Rememeber that every time you do "less correct" the body will learn and remember that.

I hope you can understand what i mean, i feel a bit limited when i write in english. Keep up the hard work!

 
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I think I made a bit of progress. I did some flat hits first but here in the video like next level suggested and in the end I added some loops. You think it is a bit better too?

https://youtu.be/hQsLg5zFLw8

Btw i don't know why I finish so high on the flat hits (first 20 seconds of video). It felt like I would finish much flatter but I'm still lifting the bat pretty high.

Not sure this is different from what anyone else said. If you are doing a basic drive (flat hitting), rather than looping, and the robot is feeding you topspin, then I believe you would want your racket much higher on the backswing. To me it looks like you are dropping the racket on the backswing as if you are trying to lift backspin over the net. If the racket drops that low, it sort of has to end high.

Also, if you are trying to hit flat, ideally you would be catching the ball at the top of the bounce or on the rise rather than hitting it while the ball is dropping.

I do believe what Lula is talking about is generating spin and looping. So, what he is saying makes sense to me too in the context of looping. But if you are trying to hit flat (a basic drive) I don't think you would want to drop the racket down so low on the backswing.

 
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This here would be a flat hit, right?
https://youtu.be/rt9gbpZGQGM
I might get into trouble for saying it is not a very good one (way too much arm), but yes it is a flat/counter hit - it is one with the old celluloid ball when you could get away with stuff. If you want a video model, I prefer this one:

https://youtu.be/PteXPY1V6Vw?t=23

Look at what Dima does at the beginning. Boll is doing it too, but his style is not standard and is probably affected by having to hit inside out.

 
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By the way, whatever one may think of different looping styles, note how low Dima's elbow is throughout his forehand topspin. There is room for different techniques depending on the player, but no one is going to recover quickly close to the table if your arm is above your head on the finishing position on the basic stroke.

Edit: Boll is counterhitting and blocking here:

https://youtu.be/PteXPY1V6Vw?t=195

The below was one of my favorite videos for a while:

https://youtu.be/MyDcNpdOjg8?t=24
 
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By the way, whatever one may think of different looping styles, note how low Dima's elbow is throughout his forehand topspin. There is room for different techniques depending on the player, but no one is going to recover quickly close to the table if your arm is above your head on the finishing position on the basic stroke.

Edit: Boll is counterhitting and blocking here:

https://youtu.be/PteXPY1V6Vw?t=195

The below was one of my favorite videos for a while:

https://youtu.be/MyDcNpdOjg8?t=24
Great examples, and yeah, how low Ma Long's elbow stays too when he is looping.

 
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Great examples, and yeah, how low Ma Long's elbow stays too when he is looping.

Dima definitely finishes low with the elbow and is very compact but doesn't ma long lift the elbow a bit? Not like I did of course but it seems like his upper arm often ends up like shoulder high. Or do I see that wrong?
I'm not trying to be argumentative,I just want to understand what I see.

https://youtube.com/shorts/QkWTcbE8_i0?feature=share

Screenshot%2020221129%20073743%20com%20google%20android%20youtube%20jpg.jpeg

 
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It will be a good discussion. As this is in relation to an important fundamental technique and the questions are very good, is it possible to make the discussion in a separate post with correct title to make an easy reference for anyone self-learning forehand drive being able to search it online?

Dominikk85, very good questions. Keep going, trying to raise more challenging questions to the experts and making it a better discussion.
 
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By the way, whatever one may think of different looping styles, note how low Dima's elbow is throughout his forehand topspin. There is room for different techniques depending on the player, but no one is going to recover quickly close to the table if your arm is above your head on the finishing position on the basic stroke.

Edit: Boll is counterhitting and blocking here:

https://youtu.be/PteXPY1V6Vw?t=195

The below was one of my favorite videos for a while:

https://youtu.be/MyDcNpdOjg8?t=24

It's an interesting discussion and I’ve thought about how high my finishing position is prior to the latest comments. It was always a bit too high for my liking, but it’s difficult to change. So what to focus on to change it?

In the same clip from above when ML is counterlooping:

3tsBtPA.png

That to me looks about the same as my elbow on loop against block, unless the angle is deceiving me. So on bigger shots I guess it's not the end of the world to end up with the elbow a little higher.

One counterloop I do in this video at 1.30 I take lower because the ball clipped the net, so my elbow doesn’t go as high. But it also feels strange taking the ball this low. Is this how it should look?
https://youtu.be/jC0GdVRmB70?t=90

Could be that I'm so used to engaging some upper arm from the past it's hard to get more of my body do the work so I compensate by still using some upper arm + body but then sacrificing recovery time.

 

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it’s difficult to change. So what to focus on to change it?

Doesn't this kind of feel like TJing? I mean, you say it's difficult to change, is this the best use of your limited training time?

Other than looking beautiful in freeze-frames, how many more points will you win if you make this fh finish position lower?

 
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Dima definitely finishes low with the elbow and is very compact but doesn't ma long lift the elbow a bit? Not like I did of course but it seems like his upper arm often ends up like shoulder high. Or do I see that wrong?
I'm not trying to be argumentative,I just want to understand what I see.

https://youtube.com/shorts/QkWTcbE8_i0?feature=share

Screenshot%2020221129%20073743%20com%20google%20android%20youtube%20jpg.jpeg


That finishing position from Ma Long and Rich is a salute position. If you finish with a salute position, with the upper arm largely on the same side of your body, that is fine. Your practice video did not reflect a salute position.

The main issue isn't so much where the arm finishes but how the body was used to move the shoulder joint through the stroke. Using the upper arm a bit is inevitable, but the temptation if you are learning is to *use it more*, when the way to get power is to use the core/whole body to move the shoulder joint so that the upper arm works less (it still works, but it shouldn't be where you are getting most of power). A Salute position usually is a good sign that you are not overusing the upper arm. Not a perfect sign, but usually a good sign.

First of all, Ma Long is playing further back from the table than you are. If you focus not on just the still shot of the finishing position and you look at the whole Ma Long stroke, he rotates his torso over his right knee to power the backswing stroke. *Not his upper arm*. So he is hitting the ball with his whole body. Dima who is taller, is doing the same, he just isn't getting as much leverage because he doesn't use the arm the same way.

If you look hard enough, you will find shots with Quadri Aruna and a few other players finishing with their upper arm wrapped over their heads on some shots during rallies. This is not *Base* technique for most of these players. Everyone makes compromises or slight changes to base technique to adapt to certain balls. But the base is usually a standard stroke vs block, powered mostly by using the torso/core/legs with a good finishing position for recovery.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with arguing, in fact, I sometimes hesitate to bring in video of good players hitting the ball because it can give very wrong impression and there are some very good player who hit the ball their own way, mimicking them with their fitness level and technique is often asking for trouble. As long as your technique is not causing injury and is using a kind of helicopter motion, there are many options. But what isn't correct is using the upper arm in isolation from the body and swinging upwards with the upper arm is usually a sign that something has gone very wrong in figuring

 
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So basically if the upper arm gets pulled up passively by the weight of the forearm at the end of the stroke it is fine but if you rip the shoulder/upper arm up to try to generate spin it is bad?
 
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