Video Footage Safe Thread

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I have a bucket but it was used as phone tripod:)


Regarding upper body essentially keep upper body vertical (side to side direction - of course there should be some forward lean) and just use knee and hip flexion to get down?


it seems some pros have some side bend like Dima sometimes but others are more upright

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Some of these things are the reasons why people get back injuries, despite their fitness level (Dima and Timo and even Zhang Jike are not exceptions and I am also speaking from personal experience). You have to be careful with what you copy from people. Carl has explained to you that it is very different to drop the body with a lunge and then play this shot (which is still dangerous even then to the back) and to make it a part of your base stroke. It might feel good for a while but when the discs slip, unlike those guys, you aren't getting paid millions to compensate for the issues that follow.

One of the things people miss is that a lot of pros play even their base topspins with sidespin so that they don't have to drop the racket so much - they get more forward power and kick. Here is one of my favorite examples here. He clearly has one of the best forehands in the world and you aren't doing what he is doing.

https://youtu.be/57JKkvlny34?t=21

The way I try to teach the forehand topspin, rightly or wrongly I really don't care that much anymore, is to encourage people to expose as much paddle to the ball with their hitting technique. Then you adjust from there by going through the ball with maximum surface area exposed while closing the paddle a bit more and brushing it slightly more - it adds some sidespin or corkscrew, but you can fix that with minor adjustments. Not saying I am right or wrong, and sometimes we project too much, but you are trying to do a lot to look like a good player, but if you watch the good players, they make good contact with the ball. They only brush really heavy backspin balls and that is when they are out of position. On many of the balls you are lifting, you should really be able to play through the ball with spin. If you want to drop your paddle, you need to work on your legs and get your body low and play the same stroke that you played when you were high, not ruin your back. When you ruin your back, you aren't making the money they make for doing so. Always remember that.

 
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I actually noticed that hitting the ball slightly on the outside with a bit of side spin makes looping a bit easier for me but I ditched that because I thought it would be better to learn a clean "12 to 6" spin loop first.
 
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I actually noticed that hitting the ball slightly on the outside with a bit of side spin makes looping a bit easier for me but I ditched that because I thought it would be better to learn a clean "12 to 6" spin loop first.

No one does a clean, 12-6 loop, the people who do can't hit the ball hard once it has topspin on it or have to let it drop. You can hit the ball with a full contact, but then you have to hit it slowly, But the real thing is to be able to hit the ball straight. you can do that even if isn't a clean loop. You can see Gionis do it.

 
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So no loop really has pure north to south topspin?

There are approximations of it per the math yes, but in reality no, especially if you are hitting the ball hard. When you swing your arm, does the paddle go north to south? All your joints are circular. What most people care about is hitting the ball fairly straight with topspin. How you do this might not result in what you think is truly north to south topspin but is a good approximation. But you can get something like it even if you hit the ball on the side as long as you follow through fairly straight. That is my point.
 
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I'm not sure if anyone here can comment on your style. Your fh pips smash swings look too long and loose to work reliably, but they clearly do work great. It sounds like health and fitness are your limitations right now.

Thanks for the feedback, it definitely will elicit some changes! It's not the first time I've heard of some of the feedback, but that's excellent. More trained eyes = more impetus to change when fitness allows. The swing size is a new one [it was said when I used MX-P on the FH, but not specifically for the pips]...

On the Pips swing, I'm thinking that a bigger swing is acceptable when I have more time [to graduate the swing speed and angle more precisely] - when I have less time.. small movement is preferred? With these SP's, you get a bulk of your power from a short, small action, so for me the long action is something to work on, but also it definitely makes countering topspin 'easier' to hit through so there is a 'reason' for it. Intelligent use case, I guess?


If you want something to work on maybe the quick, over the table pips attacks? Like you do a lovely one at :21 in the video, and follow up with a smash. At :33 you push a third ball with the pips and he pushes it back. Most opponents with experience vs pips will not push back your pips push, so it would be better if you are comfortable opening on that receive.



Absolutely, I love that you recognized that type of shot.. the over-table attack as is shocking to deal with for most opponents - you get a passive return to the over-the-table attack, and a follow-up smash is inevitable.. its an advantageous play, especially playing the dead ball to the backhand [handcuffs]. Interestingly, you can hit through topspin, backspin or no-spin, as long as you have good feeling and deal with the spin [or lack of], and the more height to work with the easier it is - but you can do it even on balls below net height as long as you take the speed off.



Also using pips it isn't usually advantageous to get into heavy backspin rallies. So if you mostly served backspin when you played double inverted, you could practice serving more long, and also dead and topspin or side-top serves. Anything that will get you a long ball, preferably a bit high. Because your fh pips smash is really wicked. And your inverted backhand is no joke either.


I definitely overpush - its a conscious move to save energy at the moment. As I hopefully better and fitter, I will have to unlearn that skill for longer balls, especially if I want to reach a really high standard. One interesting thing I've noticed though.. is that the combination rubber, combined with being able to push dead / light / heavy on the SP side without much tell, is that misreading of spin means you get some high balls from pushing. Players a decent chunk 'better' than me heavily struggled against my totally fatigued corpse even when my goal was to just serve ...and keep pushing until a high ball or they top-spinned a ball, but I think once you reach something equivalent to say a 2400+ level, that'll be rarer. You get this same 'uncertainty' when you loop, so there's no specific reason to just push - people can't read the spin on the loop [its so dependent on my acceleration at contact, which they a) Don't realize b) Don't observe c) I can hide this well even if a) and b) don't apply. Finally, even if they follow a) b ) and c), they are putting a lot of focus and that means they may not be prepared for other things.

The only other benefit of pushing aside from creating mistakes / high balls due to misreading the quantity of spin, is the open up loops [when they come] are often high arc - very easy for me to counter on FH, and either block or counter on my BH, but it shouldn't be some rally I actively try to engage in, as you say. Just a pattern of play I can use on low frequency, where I happen to have some hidden advantages [so many players open slow, topspinny to counter their uncertainty, and I love those balls].

[If we use Falck as a model, he tends to loop most long balls, but he does have some love for pushing a little more than the average double-inverted player, even against the top 5/10, who are obviously much more punishing / aware of how to deal with his style.] - I don't want to entirely throw out a pattern of play, whilst agreeing that it'll potentially hurt me against strong players who are used to this style / very strong players...and I just had a cybershape [carbon master] arrive in the mail. So creative pushing might stay in a reduced form :) [i'm very happy with my current blade, its just cybershape might be like putting on the FH SP...revolutionary for me. There's just so much feeling when you push, but I do want to reduce it by 60-70%!


So if you mostly served backspin when you played double inverted, you could practice serving more long, and also dead and topspin or side-top serves. Anything that will get you a long ball, preferably a bit high. Because your fh pips smash is really wicked. And your inverted backhand is no joke either.


I tended to use the same serves I was using in the match, however I lost a lot of spin from the layoff / playing against beginners so I didn't realize [Simon and the others on screen were down for a tournament]. The next best players here are around 1400 level, although a small town 40 mi away has 1 good and 1 top player [no stadium there, and they don't like travelling to train :(].

The point is to get high balls back. So I do serve long more ['exploitative serving], but I did start practising [Simon and my mentor who was visiting] both said my serving had gotten very weak. The long serves were slow and not long, and I either need to keep it short, half long or LONG [last 2-3 inches of the table]. Getting a lot of spin, or using the pips to serve [can generate a lot of kick and spin with the pips, or light/dead spin to confuse with same action] gets the ball high now. Then Bh/Fh to sweep up!

So I've put a lot of work into creating a lot of different types of subterfuge, whilst having better precision / length on the serves, and doubled the spin on the 'spinnier' serves - it just makes the game so simple - serve well and 3rd ball.

I guess here's a 20s clip of what you've described - me pushing [to get me in trouble], but a shackling hit to the BH to get back some control...and then some long-gone physicality to show that yeah, my BH is no joke :)



 
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Some edited footage from my first coaching session today with a focus on FH. I took up TT around 5 months ago, coming from a significant tennis background as documented on another thread. FH has been a major weakness compared to my BH which is pretty strong.

I appreciate a couple of points:
  • This is obviously already a coaching session but any observations are absolutely welcome and appreciate
  • I'm pretty inconsistent at present as you might expect, but hoping to nail the mechanics early and develop good muscle memory
  • I have had two surgeries on my lumbar spine so rotation is not 100% possible, but I can achieve some

I'll continue to upload more from future sessions.

Thanks

 
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Some edited footage from my first coaching session today with a focus on FH. I took up TT around 5 months ago, coming from a significant tennis background as documented on another thread. FH has been a major weakness compared to my BH which is pretty strong.

I appreciate a couple of points:
  • This is obviously already a coaching session but any observations are absolutely welcome and appreciate
  • I'm pretty inconsistent at present as you might expect, but hoping to nail the mechanics early and develop good muscle memory
  • I have had two surgeries on my lumbar spine so rotation is not 100% possible, but I can achieve some

I'll continue to upload more from future sessions.

Thanks

Something doesn't look quite right but I am not sure the right comments to fix it since you have the spinal injuries and this might be pretty good because of those. It will be hard to make commentary without understanding how you feel about your stroke and what you are trying to do. IF you hit some backhands as well, it might help understand your injury impact a little better.

 
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Hi Antse7en,

Like a lot of players starting out, you often impact ball too far in front and are in 4x4 LOCK mode moving hips, upper body and arm pretty much locked together.

Think more of a whip with a timed sequence. Of course, that isn't the sole articulation needed to get you to instantly perform a whip today, but it is the thing you need to achieve.

Wait for the ball a little longer. Dont be tight. don't try to hit ball moving the shoulder around so much.

I think a Korean coach duo did a vid on just that.

You be using TOO MUCH SHOUDLER You !!! (tabletennisdaily.com)

and this vid too. This is from Korean ex-pro.
Don't Move that Elbow and Upper Arm All Around You !! (tabletennisdaily.com)
 

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Hey Antse7en,

Are you actually getting coaching from Eli himself or another coach at eBatt?

I know this goes against every fibre of the idea of this thread (which, I was a big supporter of having something like this), but if you have a top quality coach (even if it’s not Eli, I don’t think there are any bad coaches at eBatt), I feel you should simply listen to them, and ignore anything online.

You run the risk of over thinking, and trying to correct something that someone on here has pointed out, that perhaps your coach doesn’t want you to focus on right now.

Appreciate it’s a bit of a cop out to say that, but I really think it would help you in the long run.

That being said, if you can post update videos, it would be really useful for others to see the sort of progression you get with good quality coaching.

If you can manage to take on board some of the comments, whilst still doing 100% of what your coach is asking you, you’ll do great.

 
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Something doesn't look quite right but I am not sure the right comments to fix it since you have the spinal injuries and this might be pretty good because of those. It will be hard to make commentary without understanding how you feel about your stroke and what you are trying to do. IF you hit some backhands as well, it might help understand your injury impact a little better.

To be honest this was the beginning of 'major surgery' on my forehand, from top to bottom as I was hitting everything either very flat (slap), or, cocking my wrist and flicking to achieve some topspin with nothing else moving.

This exercise was aiming to focus on footwork, rotation, brushing the ball, and bringing my arm back before snapping closed close to my forehead. It's definitely not easy, and especially being so different to 20+ years of tennis muscle memory.

Fair to say I need a lot of work and patience in all areas of the game but that's the fun part of the process - learning!
Hi Antse7en,

Like a lot of players starting out, you often impact ball too far in front and are in 4x4 LOCK mode moving hips, upper body and arm pretty much locked together.

Think more of a whip with a timed sequence. Of course, that isn't the sole articulation needed to get you to instantly perform a whip today, but it is the thing you need to achieve.

Wait for the ball a little longer. Dont be tight. don't try to hit ball moving the shoulder around so much.

I think a Korean coach duo did a vid on just that.

You be using TOO MUCH SHOUDLER You !!! (tabletennisdaily.com)

and this vid too. This is from Korean ex-pro.
Don't Move that Elbow and Upper Arm All Around You !! (tabletennisdaily.com)

Thanks for sharing this. I'll have a look at the videos and digest some of the commentary. I'm back coaching again next week so I can discuss some aspects with my coach.

It's interesting you mention contact point being too far in front as this is something I was/am conscious of doing as when I started out I was contacting far too late and close to my body.

Hey Antse7en,

Are you actually getting coaching from Eli himself or another coach at eBatt?

I know this goes against every fibre of the idea of this thread (which, I was a big supporter of having something like this), but if you have a top quality coach (even if it’s not Eli, I don’t think there are any bad coaches at eBatt), I feel you should simply listen to them, and ignore anything online.

You run the risk of over thinking, and trying to correct something that someone on here has pointed out, that perhaps your coach doesn’t want you to focus on right now.

Appreciate it’s a bit of a cop out to say that, but I really think it would help you in the long run.

That being said, if you can post update videos, it would be really useful for others to see the sort of progression you get with good quality coaching.

If you can manage to take on board some of the comments, whilst still doing 100% of what your coach is asking you, you’ll do great.

Hey NDH. I'm not with Eli (he's actually abroad at the moment) but instead Guy - he seems a great coach with a fountain of knowledge and importantly a very clear communication style. I'm experienced with high volume and pretty technical coaching (tennis and clay pigeon shooting) and don't underestimate the importance of synergy and communication.

I think you make a great point re: not taking too much info on board at one time and potentially confusing or diluting messaging from Guy. At the same it would be good to take comments and observations back into the sessions to potentially be discussed.

I'll definitely continue to upload clips from the sessions - they're really happy for them to be recorded I actually grabbed 2 hours of video in total. I'm back again next week for a 1:1 in addition to attending the developmental Christmas camp the week after.

 
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The important thing to understand for you is: in the base technique of the pros you are comparing your stroke to:
1) They already have rotation in their stroke.
2) They are not overusing their upper arm in their base stroke.
3) They set up for the ball that is coming to them, so, when the ball is light to medium topspin, they are not so low, when the ball is heavier topspin, they loop over the ball, and when they are further from the table they are taking bigger swings.
4) Because they already have rotation in their strokes and know how to use their legs, when they are going to spin heavy backspin and get really low, they will add some extra lateral flexion, but it will not replace the rotational aspect of the stroke, it will be added to it.

And you do not already have the rotational aspect of the stroke in your base technique and are starting by replacing rotation with lateral flexion. And, for some reason, regardless of what kind of spin is on the incoming ball, you are dropping your racket as though you are getting ready to loop heavy backspin. It is worth sorting this stuff out and understanding when you want to keep your racket higher and when you need to get low, bend your knees much more and add that lateral motion to the rotation.

So more the second rather than the first turn in this video?

https://youtube.com/shorts/HKEdAZv5KbQ?feature=share

 
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Some edited footage from my first coaching session today with a focus on FH. I took up TT around 5 months ago, coming from a significant tennis background as documented on another thread. FH has been a major weakness compared to my BH which is pretty strong.

I appreciate a couple of points:
  • This is obviously already a coaching session but any observations are absolutely welcome and appreciate
  • I'm pretty inconsistent at present as you might expect, but hoping to nail the mechanics early and develop good muscle memory
  • I have had two surgeries on my lumbar spine so rotation is not 100% possible, but I can achieve some

I'll continue to upload more from future sessions.

Thanks

It was fun to see you use your body more through the clip. I agree with NDH. At this stage it sounds like your coach is mostly trying to get you to stop doing bad things. With only five months of bad habit development that shouldn't take so very long. But while he is doing that it might be counterproductive for randoms on the internet to make suggestions. You have a coach whom you trust. Just listening to the chat he does sound like a really positive guy. I loved that he told you some of the shots you missed were still good because your technique was better. You are on the right track, please do share more videos so we can see you improve.

 
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Hey Antse7en,.....I feel you should simply listen to them, and ignore anything online.

It was fun to see you use your body more through the clip. I agree with NDH. At this stage it sounds like your coach is mostly trying to get you to stop doing bad things. With only five months of bad habit development that shouldn't take so very long. But while he is doing that it might be counterproductive for randoms on the internet to make suggestions. You have a coach whom you trust. Just listening to the chat he does sound like a really positive guy. I loved that he told you some of the shots you missed were still good because your technique was better. You are on the right track, please do share more videos so we can see you improve.

I also agree. Too many cooks. And if you have a real coach, people online won't help as much as someone who works with you and has a plan for your development already in the works.

@NDH, I feel like your comment was perfectly inline with the idea of this thread. :) Good posts from both NDH and Brs.

 
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Also very difficult to know anything about the guy that gives advice, their knowledge and experience so important to be critical.
I also think especially Americans seems to have a lot of focus on the coach own playing ability which i think is very misleading. Be good at playing and coaching is two different things.
I also believe it is good to try to change some things and not try everything at once, very difficult to be good at anything then.
 
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I also think especially Americans seems to have a lot of focus on the coach own playing ability which i think is very misleading.

This is kinda the overall attitude in USA, but what are saying Lula is EXACTLY how Chinese parents view it. If the coach was NOT either USATT 2700+, a former province champ, or CNT A or B Team... then they want NOTHING to do with that coach. If some 2000 USATT slappie blocks 2700's loop for a winner even in practice the Chinese parents will lose respect for that coach and look for another coach.

Being good at playing and coaching is two different things.

That is 1000% CORRECT. This is even MORE TRUE as you coach adult learners. The same elite champs who the parent crowd hires do a TERRIBLE job when coaching adult learners. Their approach is almost just like how they train kids, who learn totally different.
 
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Also very difficult to know anything about the guy that gives advice, their knowledge and experience so important to be critical.

This is probably the truest sentence of Lula's post.

It is also a very obvious observation... but on the forums, many of those asking advice are new to the forum and have not seen the posting history of those giving advice, so there is literally zero clue for them...

Anyone remember Greg Lett's fabulous comedy vid where a USATT 1000 slappie is trying to give advice to a PRO player? I remember the days of about.com forum where an admin successfully got Werner Schlager to come out and give advice... and the same crowd tried to tell him how to play or give advice. Comical, until Werner Schlager had enough and never came back.

You saw that a LOT on TT forums. A lot of that is the 1000 level player being enthusiastic and wanting to share and help, some of it is a case where the one posting doesn't know much, but believes they know a lot and is dying to tell the world about it. Some of it is where the poster doesn't know, doesn't care, and gives advice anyway.

It is true that a 500 level player can see something and be right.

What Lula is expressing here I believe is the main reason why Carl setup the "Safe Video" thread where he authorized a limited number of known quality commenters to reply on the vids and give advice. The know-it-all, but know-next-to-nothing crowd can get really cruel with new posters.
 
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This is probably the truest sentence of Lula's post.

It is also a very obvious observation... but on the forums, many of those asking advice are new to the forum and have not seen the posting history of those giving advice, so there is literally zero clue for them...

Anyone remember Greg Lett's fabulous comedy vid where a USATT 1000 slappie is trying to give advice to a PRO player? I remember the days of about.com forum where an admin successfully got Werner Schlager to come out and give advice... and the same crowd tried to tell him how to play or give advice. Comical, until Werner Schlager had enough and never came back.

You saw that a LOT on TT forums. A lot of that is the 1000 level player being enthusiastic and wanting to share and help, some of it is a case where the one posting doesn't know much, but believes they know a lot and is dying to tell the world about it. Some of it is where the poster doesn't know, doesn't care, and gives advice anyway.

It is true that a 500 level player can see something and be right.

What Lula is expressing here I believe is the main reason why Carl setup the "Safe Video" thread where he authorized a limited number of known quality commenters to reply on the vids and give advice. The know-it-all, but know-next-to-nothing crowd can get really cruel with new posters.

Yeah, when I tell people that I will only take seriously the comments of someone whose play I have seen, it isn't necessarily about their playing level, but more about understanding how they see table tennis and whether they have struggled enough with the sport to understand how to communicate what they think. It is easier to write about playing like Ma Long than to play like Ma Long, but it takes someone who has tried to understand that.

for kids, mimicking adult play is one of the biggest parts of their learning, so I am okay with the bias for top level coaches for the looping juniors. As you said, language and empathy makes the adult process more complicated.

 
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What Lula is expressing here I believe is the main reason why Carl setup the "Safe Video" thread where he authorized a limited number of known quality commenters to reply on the vids and give advice. The know-it-all, but know-next-to-nothing crowd can get really cruel with new posters.
Gazackly.

 
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