What is the spinniest ESN hybrid rubber for Joola Flash ball? (seamless ball)

[Zwill]

I don't have too much experience with ESN hybrid rubbers, only ever used Tibhar K2 extensively and while it's a pretty good rubber I always felt the topsheet is weak on it and doesn't generate much spin. However it did very well on shots where I tried to maximize impact.
I'm wondering what is the rubber that works the best with the Joola Flash ball. It's important since 95% of the clubs here use that ball specifically.
I want to use the rubber only on FH on a blade with koto surface and outer carbon. Pure carbon, not woven like ALC or ZLC. It is a fast blade so I am not too worried about the speed of the rubber, but more about the spin capability with the Flash ball.
I care about the mass, hardness of the sponge and pimple structure of the rubber. I don't want anything over 53-54g cut so that would be around 76-77g uncut 170x170mm.
I like both the Tenergy 05 and Hurricane style pimples, probably would prefer the Hurricane style as the K2 is more like the Tenergy 05, just sticky and it is not very impressive in the spin generation, but it is an "old" hybrid rubber so maybe in the last few years lot of progress has been made...?
Regarding sponge hardness I'm looking at 50-57deg and I don't mind if the rubber topsheet is on the tad softer side since the Flash ball feels a bit lighter than others so it can stretch a softer topsheet easier. Or am I thinking wrong? H3 has around 33deg topsheet hardness and D09c is 31deg. Tenergy 05 is again around 33deg. These are all "shore A" btw and not my measurements but they are real measurements.

I also know that various brands have basically the same rubber with a slightly different hardness or whatever.

A few rubbers that seem like an option:

Rakza Z EH: 53-57deg sponge, topsheet 28deg hardness. Basically a normal T05 style topsheet with stickyness added. Someone on mytt has mentioned it spins the Joola Flash really well. Problem is that it is a bit heavy rubber and possibly boosted. Lot of Japanese rate it very highly so it is one of my top picks.

Rhyzen ZGR: 50 deg sponge, 32 deg topsheet. It has H3 style topsheet with small pored sponge. Not much review about it, but some Japanese rate it very well. On paper it looks great. Since Joola is the "co-designer" I would assume it works well with their balls. It's not so heavy either, and usually small pored rubbers aren't that boosted. I could be wrong tho.

Some other rubbers that could be also good.
Donic Bluegrip C2, Xiom Omega China "Light", Joola Dynaryz ZGR ( these 3 seem to be basically the same, with around 55 deg sponge and 35deg topsheet). They are heavy and medium pored so might be boosted quite a bit too.

Joola Golden Tango PS, Bluegrip R1: 50 deg medium pored sponge at 29deg hardness. I think these are like the K1 and K2 from Tibhar, just with a medium pored sponge. The Golden Tangos are said to be lifting the ball quite a bit so it might be suitable with an outer carbon blade with koto top ply. They are not so heavy, around 50g cut.

There are some new rubbers too like the Victas V>20 double extra which is to me like a bit harder Rhyzen ZGR or the Tibhar K3 which again is something similar to me. Don't fancy that many report that their K3 feels dead after a few weeks.

In the end it boils down't to Rakza Z EH or Rhyzen ZGR on paper. But I'm open to suggestions, maybe I am getting it all wrong.

 

[CLV]

In our club we play with joola flash.

I´ve played a whole season with rakza z(not eh) with an innerforce koto blade and it´s a good match for me. Got good arc and plenty of rotation.

Before the season i tried rhyzen zgr. It´s good rubber but as with all my experiences with joola rubbers: not so durable. After 2 months they just die ....




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[OldUser]

Hi,

I think you should also consider the Victas Triple Double Extra, it's a mix between D09C and Friendship Battle 2 Provincial Blue Sponge. It's livelier than the B2 but does not catapult the ball as much as the D09C, to me it was the perfect hybrid to use on a Viscaria for example, so I guess it would suit a true carbon outer blade with koto. It was surprisingly good for FH blocks, didn't had to work that much to get efficient passive or active blocks, as it is probably the main weakness of sticky/tacky rubbers in general.

Yeah I know... it is not a ESN made rubber as your title mentioned, but it's really a good rubber.

If you're not searching for speed, I would suggest the regular Rakza Z in max thickness then: it felt livelier with more spin and control than the EH version to me. I've used it on whatever inner or outer carbon blades, either koto or limba, it's really good as CLV said.

 

[Way Zooted]

Golden Tango and the PS version seem to be a favorite of the Joola reps that I've met.

 

[Zwill]

In our club we play with joola flash.

I´ve played a whole season with rakza z(not eh) with an innerforce koto blade and it´s a good match for me. Got good arc and plenty of rotation.

Before the season i tried rhyzen zgr. It´s good rubber but as with all my experiences with joola rubbers: not so durable. After 2 months they just die ....

Probably the normal Rakza Z would be fine, but people who tried both vouch more for the extra hard so I would probably get that from the two. The only problem with it is the mass. ~54g is no joke for a sheet. But I'm glad it works well with the Flash ball.

I think you should also consider the Victas Triple Double Extra, it's a mix between D09C and Friendship Battle 2 Provincial Blue Sponge. It's livelier than the B2 but does not catapult the ball as much as the D09C, to me it was the perfect hybrid to use on a Viscaria for example, so I guess it would suit a true carbon outer blade with koto. It was surprisingly good for FH blocks, didn't had to work that much to get efficient passive or active blocks, as it is probably the main weakness of sticky/tacky rubbers in general.

Yes, the TDE is an interesting rubber, but very heavy too, I think even heavier than the Rakza Z EH. Also it has some durability issues if I remember like bubbling up. I tried B2 before too, I like to test Chinese rubbers, but unfortunately that's on me. My club won't (can't) get me such rubbers, even the TDE would be a stretch.

Golden Tango and the PS version seem to be a favorite of the Joola reps that I've met.

Funnily enough the Golden Tango PS is the recommended rubber by the blade maker too, due to it's higher arc. I like it since it's the lightest among Rhyzen ZGR and Rakza Z and I think the pimple shape is the same as Rakza Z so it's more of a "stickified" tensor. The K2 was more like a boosted Hurricane.

 

[Zeen]

Difficult to say honestly. I have a lot of experience with joola flash and various rubbers but can't answer confidently. Depends on your goals, whether you go for mainly spin or speed to win the point. But if you play pure carbon I don't see you going primarily for spin, as it is not optimized for that. And then it doesn't really matter which hybrid to go for. Don't go too hard sponge, it's not necessary with flash. When it comes to esn, any modern high throw hybrid around 52,5 deg should be fine. But imo, Chinese topsheet will be better for heavy spin with flash ball. H3 or tg2 with booster works well. My team plays with flash and I use d09c, but it's essentially just a high quality consistent boosted tg2. So don't overthink too much and just pick something among the usual suspects.

 

[Zwill]

Difficult to say honestly. I have a lot of experience with joola flash and various rubbers but can't answer confidently. Depends on your goals, whether you go for mainly spin or speed to win the point. But if you play pure carbon I don't see you going primarily for spin, as it is not optimized for that. And then it doesn't really matter which hybrid to go for. Don't go too hard sponge, it's not necessary with flash. When it comes to esn, any modern high throw hybrid around 52,5 deg should be fine. But imo, Chinese topsheet will be better for heavy spin with flash ball. H3 or tg2 with booster works well. My team plays with flash and I use d09c, but it's essentially just a high quality consistent boosted tg2. So don't overthink too much and just pick something among the usual suspects.

Yes, I also think medium hard sponge and topsheet combo would be the best for the Flash ball. D09c was quite good, but it's hard work to use it well with the Flash ball. I prefer the H8-80 more, probably becuase it is a bit softer and more technically versatile rubber.
Well I like finishing everything quickly if the setup allows it. This is what I enjoyed in the K2, it was very good for killing balls. But it was not so good on slow opening loops, and I can't remember how it did against defenders. I prefer fast blades since when I kill something I don't want it to come back especially if I pivot.
I guess I will get the Golden Tango PS, since I really don't find anything negative about it and the maker recommends it too so it must go well together with the blade.

 

[IB66]

Don’t forget Xiom Tau 2, still fairly heavy, but has more bounce than H8-80, less than RZ EH, durability seems good as well. Good spin capabilities. Should be fast enough on your carbon blade.
Often forgotten about but a very good rubber!!!

 

[CLV]

Don’t forget Xiom Tau 2, still fairly heavy, but has more bounce than H8-80, less than RZ EH, durability seems good as well. Good spin capabilities. Should be fast enough on your carbon blade.
Often forgotten about but a very good rubber!!!

Not an easy rubber to get when based in europe ...

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[IB66]

Not an easy rubber to get when based in europe ...

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Yes, agreed!! Could be worse at present as well.
mine took a few weeks to arrive from Hong Kong.

 

[vvk1]

Yes, I also think medium hard sponge and topsheet combo would be the best for the Flash ball. D09c was quite good, but it's hard work to use it well with the Flash ball. I prefer the H8-80 more, probably becuase it is a bit softer and more technically versatile rubber.
Well I like finishing everything quickly if the setup allows it. This is what I enjoyed in the K2, it was very good for killing balls. But it was not so good on slow opening loops, and I can't remember how it did against defenders. I prefer fast blades since when I kill something I don't want it to come back especially if I pivot.
I guess I will get the Golden Tango PS, since I really don't find anything negative about it and the maker recommends it too so it must go well together with the blade.

Slow opening loops are not what they used to be since the switch to plastic balls. K2 has been my FH rubber for exactly 3 years now. Nothing I've tried - Dignics 9c, Rakza Z EH nor K3 - came even close as a worthwhile replacement. D9C felt too mushy and not tacky enough, both Rakza Z and K3 are not tacky enough/too bouncy (neither has the same dense sponge like K2). K2 Pro (see review here http://www.dku51.com/article-12456.html) sounds promising though.

 

[Zwill]

Don’t forget Xiom Tau 2, still fairly heavy, but has more bounce than H8-80, less than RZ EH, durability seems good as well. Good spin capabilities. Should be fast enough on your carbon blade.
Often forgotten about but a very good rubber!!!

Yep, good call I kinda forgot about the TAU 2, but as mentioned not easy to get in EU. I tink it's also like the K2 and Bluegrip V1, dense sponge with a sticky T05 type topsheet. These rubbers are on specs interchangable.

Slow opening loops are not what they used to be since the switch to plastic balls. K2 has been my FH rubber for exactly 3 years now. Nothing I've tried - Dignics 9c, Rakza Z EH nor K3 - came even close as a worthwhile replacement. D9C felt too mushy and not tacky enough, both Rakza Z and K3 are not tacky enough/too bouncy (neither has the same dense sponge like K2). K2 Pro (see review here http://www.dku51.com/article-12456.html) sounds promising though.

For sure opening loops are not the same, I myself really liked the K2 on quick loop kills, it's a fantastic rubber for that. I haven't seen any that matches it so far.
But there are occasions when you can't do that. Like when serve receiving the ball's 3rd bounce would be right on the edge of the table. You either just push the receive or wait the ball to come out and let it drop a little under the table and do a "classical" loop. For that some sponge compression "effect" is needed to be annoying. If you don't have sponge compression the loop just becomes too high over the net and it can be smashed. With dense and hard sponges you really have to hold back in these cases not to make the ball high but then your spin will be quite weak too and it can be controlled. Some Chinese players suck quite badly at "classical opening loops" with their H3. FZD and LJK comes to mind.
If I use a normal non-tacky tensor rubber I can use the sponge compression to control the arc height of the ball and make it very spinny at the same time. So it is possible to do even with the new ball.
If I try to remember the K2 was actually much better with the DHS DJ40 ball than with the Flash, the DHS ball just stretched the topsheet more. Maybe these dense sponges are not so great with the Flash ball.

 

[Zwill]

Well this is "my" thread, at least I was the person starting it so I can revive it without receiving any mean stares, right?

I have tried a "few' ESN made hibrid rubbers in the past several months. Tibhar K2, Joola Golden Tango PS, Rakza Z EH, Donic Bluegrip C2, Tibhar K3. From Tibhar K3 I have only veeeeeeeeery few limited experience.

Few things:
K2, Golden Tango PS and Rakza Z seem to have a very similar topsheet. They don't follow the short pip, thick top layer philosophy of D09c or C2 or K3. Also the stickiness is achieved by covering the rubber with some sticky goo.
GTPS and Rakza Z EH are pretty unbouncy, they give you no catapult, and they are quite heavy.
Tibhar K2 feels solid do to it's superdense sponge, that sponge is like rubber, but the very nice kind of rubber. It's about 10% lighter than Rakza Z and 6-7% lighter than GTPS. Spinwise I don't feel much difference between any of these to be honest.

Donic C2 and Tibhar K3. These seem to follow D09c or H3 philosphy, short and thin and dense pips, and thicker top rubber layer.
Let's start with C2 since I have more experience with it. It's lighter than Rakza Z EH, by about 5%. It's topsheet durability is very questionable. You can see visible wear marks after 1-2 hours of play and after 10 hours it looks ugly. This visual degradation is more apparent on black than red sheets. C2 has not much catapult effect, it tries to imitate H3 BS as it hits trough the blade. If you are looking for this and THIS ONLY it is not a bad rubber. It makes very good spin, better than the previous ones and it is more spin insensitive at the same time so countering with it is easier.
I would pair this rubber with very fast blades like Super Viscaria, or ZLC blades to be honest.

Tibhar K3, so I have very little experience but what I can tell immediately is that it is. It is actually very soft, and quite catapulty compared to everything else listed here. It is softer than D05, it is in between D05 and T05 in hardness, but it is similarly sticky as C2. It is light, about 50g cut, which is a 1-2g heavier than D05 or T05 and about the same weight as MX-S, D09c, 2-3g lighter than GTPS or C2.
K3 has a pretty strong catapult effect that other hybrids don't have. Not even D09c.
I think K3 is not boosted at all, it has rubber smell out of the package, it reminds me of V>15 in smell and V>15 extra is not boosted either hence it doesn't shrink.
K3 feels like a pretty good rubber for its price. Sure except for D09c or T05, everything I mentioned is cheaper than K3 but I would put K3 on the same level as G-1 in terms of cost/performance and everything else is below them.

I would totally use K3 on my backhand over G-1. I am very much considering this. I can understand why the Lebruns changed to this on both sides and also why Kenta Matsudaira likes it on BH.

My lovely girlfriend is sending me Piny Fang Cui rubbers with pink sponge, Gan is vouching for those a lot. I am very curious to compare them. They should be rubbers not needing boosting so, right up the alley of these.

 

[thomas.pong]

You just performed perfect CPR on ye old thread!

Thanks for your comparison review of these rubbers.

I can vouch for K3 as well, felt quite good on my friend's Viscaria, great cost/performance indeed à la G-1.. Tempted to try K2 now after your praise.

Looking up Piny Fang Cui rubbers right now, let us know what you think once you've tried them!

Still playing with Young Shine Dingtian on your FH?

 

[OldUser]

To me the spinniest thing for a flash ball is a french CRS... ( thomas.pong will understand that joke )

 

[guni4you]

I really like K3 on my Viscaria. Lot of spin on brush loops, great for short touches and lot of power away from the table.Coming from 09c really like it ( used 09c for two years and loved it, but find K3 even better). Moreover, my paddle feels a lot lighter when I changed from 09c to K3 on forehand. Havent used the joola ball, but with double fish and DHS ball feels amazing.

 

[Antonlan]

I played K3 for around 6 months. Compared to Rakza Z it’s faster with lower throw and much lighter than Rakza Z (not to mention Rakza Z extra hard). Speed is similar to D09C I would say but the throw and spin is lower.

My problem with K3 is durability. For me, playing 4-5 hours per week (at best), the rubbers lasted shorter than comparable hybrids. The cost is higher with K3 than D09C and Rakza Z by some distance.

Now playing with Dragongrip which feels promising. Will see about durability though…

 

[Zwill]

You just performed perfect CPR on ye old thread!

Thanks for your comparison review of these rubbers.

I can vouch for K3 as well, felt quite good on my friend's Viscaria, great cost/performance indeed à la G-1.. Tempted to try K2 now after your praise.

Looking up Piny Fang Cui rubbers right now, let us know what you think once you've tried them!

Still playing with Young Shine Dingtian on your FH?

The Dingtian is so fun to use, but it's so bouncy on touches... Rakza Z EH is much better on touch play, I think it is marginally spinnier too but it's a lot more effort to use. There can be a pretty significant hardness difference between RZEH, I have a red sheet and a black, the red is much softer, and easier to use. The black is really hard work.
The biggest downside of RZEH is its weight, 54-55g, it's a heavy bastard. That being said the Dingtian boosted is also around 53g, but the K3 is 50g. K2 also around 49-50g.

The G-1 is very good for backhand, I would not wanna change on that. It's about 48g cut at 2.0mm which is about the weight of T05.

The Pinyi rubber is also supposed to be a heavy bastard at 54-55g, but I will see. I can deal with about 195g racket in total but I would prefer something in the 190g range. I could go with V11 Extra or Aurus Select at 2.1mm on BH, I'm pretty sure Aurus Select would be fine, but with G-1 I feel that extra umph if I put in the effort, I can't remember Aurus Select having that.

 

[thomas.pong]

I played K3 for around 6 months. Compared to Rakza Z it’s faster with lower throw and much lighter than Rakza Z (not to mention Rakza Z extra hard). Speed is similar to D09C I would say but the throw and spin is lower.

My problem with K3 is durability. For me, playing 4-5 hours per week (at best), the rubbers lasted shorter than comparable hybrids. The cost is higher with K3 than D09C and Rakza Z by some distance.

Now playing with Dragongrip which feels promising. Will see about durability though…

My friend complained about K3's durability as well, guess it's a Tibhar thing.

 

[thomas.pong]

The Dingtian is so fun to use, but it's so bouncy on touches... Rakza Z EH is much better on touch play, I think it is marginally spinnier too but it's a lot more effort to use. There can be a pretty significant hardness difference between RZEH, I have a red sheet and a black, the red is much softer, and easier to use. The black is really hard work.
The biggest downside of RZEH is its weight, 54-55g, it's a heavy bastard. That being said the Dingtian boosted is also around 53g, but the K3 is 50g. K2 also around 49-50g.

The G-1 is very good for backhand, I would not wanna change on that. It's about 48g cut at 2.0mm which is about the weight of T05.

The Pinyi rubber is also supposed to be a heavy bastard at 54-55g, but I will see. I can deal with about 195g racket in total but I would prefer something in the 190g range. I could go with V11 Extra or Aurus Select at 2.1mm on BH, I'm pretty sure Aurus Select would be fine, but with G-1 I feel that extra umph if I put in the effort, I can't remember Aurus Select having that.

Yea, the Razkas are heavy, that's their only downfall, I'd recommend R7 more otherwise but tend to recommend G-1 or C-1 now instead.

The Fastarcs are just great rubbers and they last so long!