Which Chinese players would have the highest peak ELO rating all time?

[TensorBackhand]

Supposing we tracked ELO rating for pro players, which Chinese pro players would have the highest peak ELO rating? I'll take a stab, but I'm also no TT historian. I just want to know the absolute best players in terms of performance

1) Ma Long
2) Zhang Jike
3) Wang Liqin
4) Ma Lin
5) Fan Zhendong

 

[blahness]

I think Ma Long is definitely the highest but will leave it to a math wiz

 

[zeio]

The rating points of the others when a specific player was WR1 should've been listed for a fuller picture. Look up yourself if interested.

ITTF
2008/01 12965 WH, https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/109961/SEN/M;SINGLES
2008/09 12934 MLin, https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/105648/SEN/M;SINGLES
2010/01 12830 ML (WR1 for the 1st time), https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/105649/SEN/M;SINGLES
2007/06 12739 WLQ, https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/109974/SEN/M;SINGLES
Between 2007/01 and 2010/02, 10000 points were added to all players
2016/10 3453 ML
2012/08 2993 ZJK, https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/110553/SEN/M;SINGLES
2017/06 3346 FZD (WR2, first reached WR1 in 2018/04), https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/121404/SEN/M;SINGLES
2014/07 3116 XX, https://ranking.ittf.com/#/rankings/progress/110267/SEN/M;SINGLES
Since 2018/01, merit-based world ranking system has taken effect

Ratings Central
2005/05/16 3294±73 WLQ, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=5076
2012/01/17 3267±78 ML, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=13551
2003/11/12 3218±47 MLin, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=5377
2012/05/16 3198±57 ZJK, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=5930
2004/03/01 3182±66 WH, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=5385
2022/03/07 3178±84 FZD, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=64427
2012/06/27 3175±58 XX, https://www.ratingscentral.com/HistoryGraph.php?PlayerID=30230
We only consider a player to be ranked if the player has a standard deviation that is smaller than 100. This is because otherwise their playing strength is relatively uncertain. This is just our convention; there is nothing magical about a standard deviation of 100.

p.s. Added XX.

 

[Amayzde]

Supposing we tracked ELO rating for pro players, which Chinese pro players would have the highest peak ELO rating? I'll take a stab, but I'm also no TT historian. I just want to know the absolute best players in terms of performance

1) Ma Long
2) Zhang Jike
3) Wang Liqin
4) Ma Lin
5) Fan Zhendong

Zhang Jike isn’t gonna be rated n2. He didn’t win that many ittf tournaments. Only the big ones.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Zhang Jike isn’t gonna be rated n2. He didn’t win that many ittf tournaments. Only the big ones.

How would you rate the players based on peak ability in theoretical matchup?

 

[Dr Evil]

Probably Ma Long in 2015. Lost only one match (to Shang Kun) in international competition all year.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

My top 3 would likely be WLQ, Ma Lin, Ma Long, no specific order.
ZJK and Wang Hao would surely close off the 2 remaining spots

the earlier players can't have high ELO, due to stronger foreigners back then. So this would affect KLH and LGL's points.

FZD won't feature on my top 5.

 

[Dominikk85]

My top 3 would likely be WLQ, Ma Lin, Ma Long, no specific order.
ZJK and Wang Hao would surely close off the 2 remaining spots

the earlier players can't have high ELO, due to stronger foreigners back then. So this would affect KLH and LGL's points.

FZD won't feature on my top 5.

Would WLQ be competitive now with his bad backhand though? His forehand was insane but his BH was kinda weak, almost like a penhold player playing SH. Ma Lin might have a similar issue, he had a RBP but it wasn't great.

Love WLQ and Ma Lin but not sure such a forehand dominant game would work with the modern ball.

Ma Long also is a bit forehand dominant but he worked extremely hard to improve his BH and thus it is much better than the BH or Ma lin and WLQ.

 

[Sims]

Would WLQ be competitive now with his bad backhand though? His forehand was insane but his BH was kinda weak, almost like a penhold player playing SH. Ma Lin might have a similar issue, he had a RBP but it wasn't great.

Love WLQ and Ma Lin but not sure such a forehand dominant game would work with the modern ball.

Ma Long also is a bit forehand dominant but he worked extremely hard to improve his BH and thus it is much better than the BH or Ma lin and WLQ.

It's not about competitive now, it's about his ranking from his era transkated and compared to other rankings.
I can't figure it out myself but zeio has linked lots of good numbers up there.

 

[dingyibvs]

It's not about competitive now, it's about his ranking from his era transkated and compared to other rankings.
I can't figure it out myself but zeio has linked lots of good numbers up there.

Right, having a high ELO means being the most dominant for the longest time while playing, so that'd be Ma Long by a long shot. WLQ would probably be number two. Everyone else is fighting for number three.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Would WLQ be competitive now with his bad backhand though? His forehand was insane but his BH was kinda weak, almost like a penhold player playing SH. Ma Lin might have a similar issue, he had a RBP but it wasn't great.

Love WLQ and Ma Lin but not sure such a forehand dominant game would work with the modern ball.

Ma Long also is a bit forehand dominant but he worked extremely hard to improve his BH and thus it is much better than the BH or Ma lin and WLQ.

i wouldn't say WLQ backhand is weak.

They were in an era where the speed and spin was much stronger and BH they could just block it while rely on FH to play 80% of the table.
Today, the ball is slower and less spin, and require more 2 wing approach.

Should both of them (+ Ma Lin) feature in this era, with the ball slower and less spin, I am sure the BH quality would also increase.

Back then, it was a FH dominated era and you don't have many that can use BH to beat FH in rallies.

 

[rpb23]

Would WLQ be competitive now with his bad backhand though? His forehand was insane but his BH was kinda weak, almost like a penhold player playing SH. Ma Lin might have a similar issue, he had a RBP but it wasn't great.

Love WLQ and Ma Lin but not sure such a forehand dominant game would work with the modern ball.

Ma Long also is a bit forehand dominant but he worked extremely hard to improve his BH and thus it is much better than the BH or Ma lin and WLQ.

Forehand dominant doesn't automatic mean a weak backhand.
A monster backhand loop is not the necessity of a good backhand. It's only for a great backhand or backhand dominant players.

 

[SlowPower]

I started a topic weeks ago where I asked if its possible to let a KI calculate matches between former and actual champions.
Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[Dominikk85]

i wouldn't say WLQ backhand is weak.

They were in an era where the speed and spin was much stronger and BH they could just block it while rely on FH to play 80% of the table.
Today, the ball is slower and less spin, and require more 2 wing approach.

Should both of them (+ Ma Lin) feature in this era, with the ball slower and less spin, I am sure the BH quality would also increase.

Back then, it was a FH dominated era and you don't have many that can use BH to beat FH in rallies.

Good point. I have always wondered why penhold players of the 70s and 80s didn't develop RPB, but they probably just didn't need it as they could dominate with serve and forehand. Maybe developing a RBP even would have made them weaker if they had relied on RPB instead of stepping around and going for the 3rd ball kill every time.

WLQ probably would have worked more to improve his backhand had he played 10-15 years later.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Good point. I have always wondered why penhold players of the 70s and 80s didn't develop RPB, but they probably just didn't need it as they could dominate with serve and forehand. Maybe developing a RBP even would have made them weaker if they had relied on RPB instead of stepping around and going for the 3rd ball kill every time.

WLQ probably would have worked more to improve his backhand had he played 10-15 years later.

also back then, there was speed glue.
the backhand punch can be very fast.
but again, the earlier.

WLQ biggest threat won't be his BH (i'm sure he, without improvement will still be top 10 in the world easily in terms of playing level).
how problem would be best out of 5 games. he needs time to rev up his body and once the body is hot, there is no stopping him.

 

[TTFrenzy]

Supposing we tracked ELO rating for pro players, which Chinese pro players would have the highest peak ELO rating? I'll take a stab, but I'm also no TT historian. I just want to know the absolute best players in terms of performance

1) Ma Long
2) Zhang Jike
3) Wang Liqin
4) Ma Lin
5) Fan Zhendong

If we are talking about PEAK ELO performance on a single tournament based a player's opponents like chess then 1997 wttc waldner 2011 wttc zhang jike and 2017 wttc ma long are probably equal in my eyes. If we are talking about retaining high ELO points throughout a period then ma long is obviously by far(?) no1. Wang hao will also come pretty close (don't let 2nd places fool you, wang hao has the best record against non chinese players)


The reason I selected strictly wttc is because I consider it the most difficult tournament of all, but one could argue that ma long is the best who didnt drop a single set in world teams (2012? or 2014 I think)

Overall if we approach this question strictly with a mathematical formula like how elo works in chess, then 1997 waldner is the best ever (again taking into consideration the difficulty of the tournament, singles are more difficult). And after that comes ma long in the world teams, both of them not losing a single set throughout the tournament

 

[zeio]

For the CNT, the team edition of WTTC is easier than its individual counterpart because the lineup could be changed to avoid certain match-ups. At WTTC 2012, LGL avoided ML vs Boll (2-0 -> 2-3 at WTTC 2010) and instead went with ZJK, who ultimately won 3-2. ML has always had a hard time playing Boll.

And if ML from WTTC 2017 is equal to the other two, then ZJK from WTTC 2013 should be equal as well, if not greater. ZJK was in poor form leading up to the event but everyone still avoided him in the warm-up tournament at home and ML was the clear favorite. By the same reasoning, WLQ from WTTC 2005 (untouchable) and WTTC 2007 (fended off RSM in SF and was down 1-3 in games, 1:7 in G5 vs MLin in F) should be equal as well.

 

[TTFrenzy]

For the CNT, the team edition of WTTC is easier than its individual counterpart because the lineup could be changed to avoid certain match-ups. At WTTC 2012, LGL avoided ML vs Boll (2-0 -> 2-3 at WTTC 2010) and instead went with ZJK, who ultimately won 3-2. ML has always had a hard time playing Boll.

And if ML from WTTC 2017 is equal to the other two, then ZJK from WTTC 2013 should be equal as well, if not greater. ZJK was in poor form leading up to the event but everyone still avoided him in the warm-up tournament at home and ML was the clear favorite. By the same reasoning, WLQ from WTTC 2005 (untouchable) and WTTC 2007 (fended off RSM in SF and was down 1-3 in games, 1:7 in G5 vs MLin in F) should be equal as well.

You have a point, I tried to answer strictly from a "mathematical elo" point of view

In chess tournaments some players have exquisite performances here and there, for example a player who is normaly rated 2100 can have a performance of 2500-2600. It seems abnormal but it isnt. Same thing goes for table tennis

If we approach it from an "overall athletic peformance" combined with difficulty from several opponents on the way then my ranking would be as follows

1. zhang jike 2011 wttc, knocked out Joo sae hyuk, wang liqin, timo boll and wang hao, who was still at his prime, at his first attempt nonetheless

2. ma long 2017 wttc, chuang chich yuan, timo boll xu xin and FZD in the final

3. WLQ 2007, (2005 just seemed too easy lol) hou yingchao (he was a top defender back then), hao shuai, and finnaly beating an onfire RSM and eventually beating ma lin with a clutch performance

Decided not to include waldner's 1997 performance because it was a different game back then. Also I agree with you about world team championships, if you are a member of china it is easier to perform when you know that you have another two top players behind you to clean up the mess if you lose your match.

The only "nightmare" scenario for a chinese player in a team match would be to lose 2-0 or 2-1 & 2-2 and you are called to save the day, this unlikely scenario is the only one which can exceed a wttc singles final match in terms of difficulty