This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
I'm obviously in the state of mind that ITTF is very corrupt, doing everything they can to reduce the chinese dominance. In any case, this seems a little too obvious, it would be nice if someone could point out eventual mistakes I've done, or simply confirm the clear error in the new world ranking.

So the problem is that Timo Boll has retained his #8 ranking with his 12325 points, whilst Liang Jingkun dropped to #9 with a reduced 12190 points, loosing around 600 points. Jingkun played three tournaments in July and received 1125, 400 and 900 points for those respective tournaments, whilst Timo Boll entered no tournament that would give him world ranking points.

Anyone know how this could happen? It couldn't be because Timo is injured? Ma Long has been injured, hence loosing his deserved #1 spot.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jun 2017
56
37
194
Read 2 reviews
World ranking takes into account the best 8 results. Poins earned in a tournament last a year (expected WTTC, WTTTC and Olympics that last longer ). So this is no mystery, probably Timo had enough results to keep his ranking the same and LJK, besides his 3 participations, lost points because he gained less than he already had.

No, the real question is why does Hugo Caldeano earned 2000 points from WTTTC 2018 in Sweden (Brazil lost in quaterfinals) while Ma Long earned 1500 (China finished 1st), Mattias Falck earned 1750 (Sweden lost in Semifinal). Even within CNT players earned points differ : FZD 2000 and XX 1750.

You can see it here :http://results.ittf.link/index.php?option=com_fabrik&view=list&listid=69&Itemid=206

Click on best 8 results of a player.

I'm sure there is a logic explanation to this but still it looks really strange.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Takkyu_wa_inochi
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
Hmm okay, then I understand the ranking system a bit better, thanks guys!

Although it's strange, because when I look at Timo Boll's Best 8 result on the ranking website, results such as WTTTC from 2018 (more than 12 months ago) are accounted, but maybe they don't account this in the ranking, but it sure looks that way.

In any case, I suppose when November arrives and Timo Boll wouldn't have achieved any impressive results, he will loose his 2295 point from the Men's World Cup and loose ranking? AFAIK.

No, the real question is why does Hugo Caldeano earned 2000 points from WTTTC 2018 in Sweden (Brazil lost in quaterfinals) while Ma Long earned 1500 (China finished 1st), Mattias Falck earned 1750 (Sweden lost in Semifinal). Even within CNT players earned points differ : FZD 2000 and XX 1750.

I'm sure there is a logic explanation to this but still it looks really strange.

Yes this sounds even more strange and maybe the case I should be carrying
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jun 2017
56
37
194
Read 2 reviews
Hmm okay, then I understand the ranking system a bit better, thanks guys!

Although it's strange, because when I look at Timo Boll's Best 8 result on the ranking website, results such as WTTTC from 2018 (more than 12 months ago) are accounted, but maybe they don't account this in the ranking, but it sure looks that way.

In any case, I suppose when November arrives and Timo Boll wouldn't have achieved any impressive results, he will loose his 2295 point from the Men's World Cup and loose ranking? AFAIK.



Yes this sounds even more strange and maybe the case I should be carrying

There must be something in the rules explaining everything but I thought team events ranking points were based on team result. This must not be the case, sounds a bit stupid but anyway.
Just looked up some other players, it's a total mess :

China 1st place : ML 1500 ; XX 1750 ; FZD 2000.
England QF : Liam Pitchford 2000 ; Paul Drinkhall 750 ; Samuel Walker 1000.
Brazil QF : Calderano Hugo 2000 ; Tsuboi Gustavo 1250.
Belarus lost in group stage : Samsonov Vladimir 1360.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
Haha yeah Wtf, that's weird. Maybe you can assign a captain who gains more points? Maybe Xu Xin lost a match, or more games? Can't think of anything that makes sense haha.

And yeah I added the points on Timo Boll, Xu Xin, etc. It seems it's more than 12 months, maybe 18 or 24? Cause results from last year's april account as well. Maybe it's last WTTC, WTTTC, etc and 12 months for world tour events? I as well realized it's the 8 best results PLUS T2 events, so if your last 8 best tournaments gave you 10 000 points, you'd have 11 000 points totally if you had 1000 points from the T2 event.

There should be some sort of description for this algorithm :/
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2019
408
505
1,149
Haha yeah Wtf, that's weird. Maybe you can assign a captain who gains more points? Maybe Xu Xin lost a match, or more games? Can't think of anything that makes sense haha.

And yeah I added the points on Timo Boll, Xu Xin, etc. It seems it's more than 12 months, maybe 18 or 24? Cause results from last year's april account as well. Maybe it's last WTTC, WTTTC, etc and 12 months for world tour events? I as well realized it's the 8 best results PLUS T2 events, so if your last 8 best tournaments gave you 10 000 points, you'd have 11 000 points totally if you had 1000 points from the T2 event.

There should be some sort of description for this algorithm :/
There is a document on the ITTF website that explains everything. If you go to the ITTF Ranking web page and scroll down you'll see a link, ITTF 2019 World Ranking Regulation , it contains everything you want to know about ranking. Regarding duration:

1.4. The ITTF World Rankings period is the immediate past 12 months, except for: ITTF World Table Tennis Championships, ITTF World Junior Table TennisChampionships, ITTF World Cups, ITTF World Tour Grand Finals, ContinentalChampionships and Continental Cups which stay in the ITTF World Rankings untilthe next edition.​
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
Ah okay that makes sense, thanks for the explanation.


So basically, the points from your last WTTC, World Cup, Olympics, etc, will be valid until the next event has ended, but tournaments like world tours are only accounted for during 12 months. In addition, the T2 events will add bonus points straight off, lasting for 12 months as well.


So I guess the only confusion are those WTTTC points, Ma Long given 1500, different from his team mates, and less than some players who didn't even make the final, very strange indeed.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2019
408
505
1,149
Ah okay that makes sense, thanks for the explanation.


So basically, the points from your last WTTC, World Cup, Olympics, etc, will be valid until the next event has ended, but tournaments like world tours are only accounted for during 12 months. In addition, the T2 events will add bonus points straight off, lasting for 12 months as well.


So I guess the only confusion are those WTTTC points, Ma Long given 1500, different from his team mates, and less than some players who didn't even make the final, very strange indeed.
Points are given for each match a player plays at the WTTTC. From page 16 of the Ranking Document I previously linked to, for the Championship division, a player earns 250 points for each match won. Ma Long played 6 matches at 250 points each equals 1500 points.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
Points are given for each match a player plays at the WTTTC. From page 16 of the Ranking Document I previously linked to, for the Championship division, a player earns 250 points for each match won. Ma Long played 6 matches at 250 points each equals 1500 points.

Ah that makes perfect sense actually, so since China rotated a bit and played Lin Gaoyuan and Wang Chuqin a couple of games, I guess Ma Long sacrificed some points. Thanks for clearing that up!

You started out by claiming the ITTF to be obviously corrupt. A bold claim that requires substance. Where is it?

Not exactly what I said, though. I said that's my state of mind, a hint with the forthcoming text almost implying I am biased because that is my state of mind.

In any case I think it's quite clear ITTF are using all their tools they can to balance the scale between China and the rest of the world when it comes to table tennis. Just look at the ranking system, there's no way Hugo Calderano, Mattias Falck, Koki Niwa, Jang Woojin are better than all but 5-6 chinese players. Before the new ranking system, a player like Wang Chuqin would've stepped up much quicker, being amongst the top 5-6 players in the world, since they more points the higher ranked player they beat, a perfectly logical system, simply scrapped.

I can't prove this, but all the tournaments I watched this year have had "unlucky" draws for the Chinese as well, it theoretically could happen, but one must admit there's a problem when the WTTC final is between Ma Long and Mattias Falck, no offense to the non-chinese players, but that's not a indication of the best players, which people deem to think. I've heard many now saying Sweden is the second best table tennis country in the world, Mattias Falck is "amongst the best", this is the consequence since WTTC is the second biggest tournament.

Not to talk about Olympics, having only 2 players per nation, why shouldn't the best players compete in an individual sports event, why even limit to nations? It's absurd in my opinion.

I fear I may be a little biased, but I think this answers your question.
 
says Yes, and I'm looking for a new sheet of Rozena at 1.9.
says Yes, and I'm looking for a new sheet of Rozena at 1.9.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2017
2,714
2,548
8,001
Read 7 reviews
I fear I may be a little biased, but I think this answers your question.

To me you're showing that bias first and foremost, and your observations (while valid) are not free from the suspicion of confirmation bias.

But you're very clear on your bias, compliments for that. Yet I, personally, do not see the "pattern of malicious intent" that would make me think there's evil scheming going on.

A lot of rules try to safeguard fairness one way but introduce some form of unfairness in another. An example would be the limit imposed by nation on the number of players that can take part in a tournament; on the one hand, this provides the non-superpowers a foothold to step up from and prove their worth, but on the other it means a large group of players from dominant nations has a larger hurdle to take.

It's a balance, and it may not be the right balance at that — but that doesn't necessarily indicate a deeper conspiracy. At least, I wouldn't say it proves that.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
15,563
16,773
52,108
Read 11 reviews
First thing:

OLYMPIC GAMES: The choice of limiting countries to 2 players in singles in the OLYMPICS HAD NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with ITTF. That was the choice of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The ITTF's choice was: comply or let Table Tennis cease to be an Olympic Sport. The IOC did the same thing in gymnastics events in non group competition. The reason? The Olympic Committee felt that the Olympics is about WORLDWIDE COOPERATION AND GOODWILL, and it would not be good to have any one country win GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE thus blocking the possibility of any other country winning a medal. It had little to do with Table Tennis. The rule was implemented across sports where there was the potential for one country to win all the medals: where any one country could have enough entrants to win all the medals. So don't blame the ITTF for something that had nothing to do with and had no actual choice in the matter. Or do you think TT being dropped by the Olympics was a viable choice?

As far as the new ranking system, it is not perfect. But it was not implemented to punish any one country. It was implemented to promote the ITTF. All a player has to do is play in at least 8 Pro Tour tournaments in a year to have a chance of a high ranking. Players who do not have enough qualified tournament entries to have 8 results for their numbers are punished, not because of their country or their results. They suffer because they did not play in enough tournaments.

If the players you are talking about who you feel should be ranked higher played enough tournaments to be ranked higher, they probably would be if they placed well enough in those tournaments. Only the 8 best are used. So if a player plays in 20 as 12 bad results and 8 excellent results, they will be ranked higher than a player who plays in 6 qualifying tournaments and has very good results in all appearances.

The ranking system is not a rating system. It is a ranking system. Like they have in tennis. You have to play enough for your results to matter.

Blame the players who have not played in enough tournaments or the country's national team that does not send the players to as many tournaments. That is not the fault of the system. If the guys who could be ranked higher cared and wanted to be ranked higher, all they have to do is play in enough qualifying tournaments to have enough good results.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: yoass
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Aug 2019
6
0
6
First thing:

OLYMPIC GAMES: The choice of limiting countries to 2 players in singles in the OLYMPICS HAD NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING to do with ITTF. That was the choice of the International Olympic Committee (IOC). The ITTF's choice was: comply or let Table Tennis cease to be an Olympic Sport. The IOC did the same thing in gymnastics events in non group competition. The reason? The Olympic Committee felt that the Olympics is about WORLDWIDE COOPERATION AND GOODWILL, and it would not be good to have any one country win GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE thus blocking the possibility of any other country winning a medal. It had little to do with Table Tennis. The rule was implemented across sports where there was the potential for one country to win all the medals: where any one country could have enough entrants to win all the medals. So don't blame the ITTF for something that had nothing to do with and had no actual choice in the matter. Or do you think TT being dropped by the Olympics was a viable choice?

As far as the new ranking system, it is not perfect. But it was not implemented to punish any one country. It was implemented to promote the ITTF. All a player has to do is play in at least 8 Pro Tour tournaments in a year to have a chance of a high ranking. Players who do not have enough qualified tournament entries to have 8 results for their numbers are punished, not because of their country or their results. They suffer because they did not play in enough tournaments.

If the players you are talking about who you feel should be ranked higher played enough tournaments to be ranked higher, they probably would be if they placed well enough in those tournaments. Only the 8 best are used. So if a player plays in 20 as 12 bad results and 8 excellent results, they will be ranked higher than a player who plays in 6 qualifying tournaments and has very good results in all appearances.

The ranking system is not a rating system. It is a ranking system. Like they have in tennis. You have to play enough for your results to matter.

Blame the players who have not played in enough tournaments or the country's national team that does not send the players to as many tournaments. That is not the fault of the system. If the guys who could be ranked higher cared and wanted to be ranked higher, all they have to do is play in enough qualifying tournaments to have enough good results.

Didn't know about the Olympics, interesting.

Why do you think they removed the factor of whom you beat? I thought that was a great way to rise in the rankings, Wang Chuqin has slaughtered Harimoto 3 times in a short period of time, beaten Lin Yun-Ju with 4-0, beaten FZD, beaten Ma Long, and being stopped by the likes of Lin Gaoyuan to go down. He's still rank 20+. And maybe next tournament, when the Chinese have some sort of retreat or prepare for club tournaments, someone like Dimitrij Ovtcharov or Mattias Falck could grab a victory at a tournment, weighing so much more than Wang Chuqin's performances going through all sorts of stars. Something doesn't sit right there with me.
 
says Yes, and I'm looking for a new sheet of Rozena at 1.9.
says Yes, and I'm looking for a new sheet of Rozena at 1.9.
Well-Known Member
Jan 2017
2,714
2,548
8,001
Read 7 reviews
I don't like the ITTF either. But there is no reason to blame them for the stuff that isn't actually their fault. There are plenty of real things to blame them for.

Are you talking post-Shahara?
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
15,563
16,773
52,108
Read 11 reviews
Are you talking post-Shahara?

You are, of course, correct. Post Adham Sharara, there have not been many things I disagree with. I would say TT Extreme is one. But I am not sure that went anywhere.

I would say, the other was, in the 2016 Olympics denying that there was a problem with the balls when so many top players were complaining about the poor quality control, the ball feel changing drastically from batch to batch even though they were only using one kind of ball and then, the sheer number of broken balls including in the middle of points.

Back then, if Thomas Weikert had admitted there was a problem in the interviews rather than denying one had even existed, and if he had said the new Poly ball still needs some work, I would have had more respect for him. But he is way better than Sharara.

So, I agree. The real problems with ITTF were under Sharara.


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland
 
  • Like
Reactions: yoass
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
15,563
16,773
52,108
Read 11 reviews
Didn't know about the Olympics, interesting.

Why do you think they removed the factor of whom you beat? I thought that was a great way to rise in the rankings, Wang Chuqin has slaughtered Harimoto 3 times in a short period of time, beaten Lin Yun-Ju with 4-0, beaten FZD, beaten Ma Long, and being stopped by the likes of Lin Gaoyuan to go down. He's still rank 20+. And maybe next tournament, when the Chinese have some sort of retreat or prepare for club tournaments, someone like Dimitrij Ovtcharov or Mattias Falck could grab a victory at a tournment, weighing so much more than Wang Chuqin's performances going through all sorts of stars. Something doesn't sit right there with me.

The new system rewards how far in a draw you go rather than who you beat.

It is just a different reward system.

The flaws in the old system were present as well. You had players who had barely played any matches over the most recent 2 years in the top 20 and they were not playing matches because they would lose fewer points by not playing than by losing.

The old system sort of favored older players who could play a few tournaments a year and time them so they peaked and had a good performance.

The new system favors people who play as many tournaments as possible.

I think it would be fine for ITTF to use both a rating system and a ranking system.

But since the flaws in the old system were just as big as the flaws in the new system, but the old system rewarded players not playing as much and this system favors players who are more active in ITTF events, the new system may promote the growth of the ITTF better.

I would say, for that reason, it is worth giving the new system a chance.


Sent from my NSA SpyPhone from Sector 13D-SR13Z74 Sub Level 29X Fort Meade, Maryland
 
  • Like
Reactions: TT Guru and yoass
says Grand Consultant to the Office of Goon Squad
says Grand Consultant to the Office of Goon Squad
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
11,856
11,963
27,792
Read 27 reviews
Off course the system is rigged... why is there a system? A system "rigs" it all with clear cut schematics on how it all works.

It is gunna rig something some way no matter what way the wind blows.

You wanna keep it real, just ask the players who they dread to run into, that says a lot.
 
Top