Feedback on backhand topspin

[Lula]

I do not care about the side spin but I do care about hitting forward and getting the power forward. In my head I feel that if I hit the left side of the ball from my side I often hit down and up. Sidespin is okey as long as I hit forward.

What do you guys think about the body? Now I think a lot about the arm but I think I in general move the body little. Do believe that I need to get power from the body somehow if I want to hit harder. Find it hard to know how to do it and still play close to the table? Have so little time.
But I do feel that some players like franzizka seem to just rip the ball fast with forearm?

I also think I need to stop the stroke earlier, think I lose some power if I don’t? I think this can also can help in getting some motion in the arm before hitting the ball. Sometimes I think let the ball come to the racket to much and then start the stroke. I think this also will make it hard to move the arm fast. Would be good to be able to move the arm a bit faster. I think some penhold players do this by using the fingers a lot but I think this is difficult in the beginning?

 

[Dr Evil]

If someone is still interested haha.
Trying to put elbow more in front of and get racket a bit more towards belly. Still feel a bit stiff and I still think I should hit the right side of the ball a bit more. Could probably use a bit of body aswell.

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Does look a bit stiff. Relax your wrist on the backswing, let the racket tip drop a little towards the ground, and then snap back to your starting position (tip to the side) on contact. Easy spin that way without needing such a closed angle. I think your contact point and timing look good.

 

[Lula]

Does look a bit stiff. Relax your wrist on the backswing, let the racket tip drop a little towards the ground, and then snap back to your starting position (tip to the side) on contact. Easy spin that way without needing such a closed angle. I think your contact point and timing look good.

I think i try to something like that. I do think i need to try to get shoulder and elbow more in front of me and maybe turn belly in and/or start stroke a bit earlier so i can do some of the motion so i can stoop with racket on the side. Need to create some space. In my head i try to make power from elbow then stop the motion there to get wrist to go forward, but then i also think i need to start the stroke a bit earlier so i have the time to stop with the elbow. How do you think about this?
Also think i should go a bit more forward in the stroke.

 

[Archosaurus]

Your level is much higher than mine, so take it with a grain of salt, but to me it appears like you're using almost no body or legs at all.

I'm not saying that's wrong, just that I noticed it. I had major difficulties looping backspin and even fairly dead balls on the backhand without pushing a bit from my legs, although that was with the cel ball, so maybe it's different now.

 

[Lula]

Your level is much higher than mine, so take it with a grain of salt, but to me it appears like you're using almost no body or legs at all.

I'm not saying that's wrong, just that I noticed it. I had major difficulties looping backspin and even fairly dead balls on the backhand without pushing a bit from my legs, although that was with the cel ball, so maybe it's different now.

I think everyone can give advice about tabletennis, not about level. Yeah, i did some practice tonight and i really notice this aswell. Even when i try to focus on using body it do not really look like i use body. I felt it was much easier to get power from the old ball, probably much more important now to be able to use the body. I think i first need to bend legs well enough to be able to use body.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think everyone can give advice about tabletennis, not about level. Yeah, i did some practice tonight and i really notice this aswell. Even when i try to focus on using body it do not really look like i use body. I felt it was much easier to get power from the old ball, probably much more important now to be able to use the body. I think i first need to bend legs well enough to be able to use body.

I think level matters. If you can't do and have never done what you suggest yourself, advice can miss the mark. In this case I will only talk about what I have done. Either way it might be wrong.

Personally I advanced from slightly bent knees to crouching lower then standing back up. Perhaps 10-15deg knee angle change.

Then I added some body twist into the same motion. It allowed me to get backspin balls over the net.

You're looping against tospin, though, so this might be incorrect. FWIW I don't see pros use a lot of obvious body when looping topspin, apart from to adjust the position of the body relative to the ball.

 

[Dr Evil]

i try to make power from elbow then stop the motion there to get wrist to go forward, but then i also think i need to start the stroke a bit earlier so i have the time to stop with the elbow. How do you think about this?

I think about power generation the same. The most efficient way to transfer power from forearm to wrist is to stop the forearm motion and let the wrist snap forward. I don't think you need to start the stroke earlier. Instead, maybe a little more acceleration on the forward swing will give you more power and time to stop with the elbow.

 

[Lula]

I think level matters. If you can't do and have never done what you suggest yourself, advice can miss the mark. In this case I will only talk about what I have done. Either way it might be wrong.

Personally I advanced from slightly bent knees to crouching lower then standing back up. Perhaps 10-15deg knee angle change.

Then I added some body twist into the same motion. It allowed me to get backspin balls over the net.

You're looping against tospin, though, so this might be incorrect. FWIW I don't see pros use a lot of obvious body when looping topspin, apart from to adjust the position of the body relative to the ball.

I kindly disagree somewhat. How many coaches are better than their players? And my experience being a good player do not at all translate to being interested and good at coaching tabletennis. yeah, i think it is important against backspin. Just being a bit bounce in legs would help i think in topspin. But in do think there are not so much consensus in how players do good backhand. I would say elbow in front and out is most important but then again some players have it closer to the body. But i do think they use more body than we see a lot of the time. It at least looks like everything is connected, for me it almost looks like the arm is separate from the body. I also think many players have really fast equipment on backhand side which helps. Thanks for the feedback. Despite your level i find it really helpful and appreciated. Just nice in general that people takes their time and invest to write feedback.

 

[Lula]

I think about power generation the same. The most efficient way to transfer power from forearm to wrist is to stop the forearm motion and let the wrist snap forward. I don't think you need to start the stroke earlier. Instead, maybe a little more acceleration on the forward swing will give you more power and time to stop with the elbow.

Okey, yeah i probably need to move arm faster in general to get more energy in to the ball as well but first get the arm movement correct. In my head i feel like if i have a little more time, it would be the same with the body? like with the elbow and like the forehand. Push from legs/belly forward or from hip left and right, stop body, get movement from elbow, stop elbow and then wrist comes. Do not really know if it works like this in reality?

 

[Archosaurus]

I suggest looking at slow-motion video of people who most likely have a kinematically correct swing and taking notes and comparing freeze frames of both of you. Although my swings were never good, it's the way I developed some resemblance of kinematically correct swings without coaching, so maybe it has some benefit. Of course you will need to film yourself and compare a lot to have any chance of improvement in reality. Xu Xin is also an olympic athelete, so unless you're of a similar fitness level, maybe you'd have to modify some things. I'm sure you know both of these things, but I'm just writing it for completeness sake.

Looking at the above video, I can see a few things:

Wrist seems more relaxed on the backswing. I believe this because the blade's tip travels closer to his pelvis than yours does. It also starts lower, closer to the pant line of the shorts.

If you look at his butt, you can see it moves around a lot. This suggests the pelvis changes location or angle. It seems to me like a lot of the angular deflection happens in the hip joint, with the torso changing angle more than the legs. I think the legs do straighten slightly.

On some shots, he jumps by pushing off the ground. Before the shot, he jumps "forward" and does some kind of set; this helped me a lot in drills but I'm not sure how to use it in games or if I ever did. On some shots, he thrusts his hips forward, probably to adjust for the position of the ball.

His followthough* is straighter forward and ends with an open wrist. To me it looks like you are holding back slightly. This is exactly how my stroke was last time I played after a long hiatus, so maybe this is something that will improve naturally. You said you haven't played for almost a year, so that might be affecting it.

You identified a lot of this in the first post, so I think the only thing missing is to go and do it. Maybe film a few short videos where you don't worry if the ball goes in the net or hits the racket edge, and just focus on swinging how you imagine you should swing, with large, exaggerated motions to make sure you're doing them. Perhaps get your partner to feed you multiball a couple balls at a time so you worry less about keeping the ball in play because it's not a factor at all.

I'm sorry if I come off arrogant with this advice, but that's what I would do.

*Followthrough, not backswing.

 

[Lula]

I suggest looking at slow-motion video of people who most likely have a kinematically correct swing and taking notes and comparing freeze frames of both of you. Although my swings were never good, it's the way I developed some resemblance of kinematically correct swings without coaching, so maybe it has some benefit. Of course you will need to film yourself and compare a lot to have any chance of improvement in reality. Xu Xin is also an olympic athelete, so unless you're of a similar fitness level, maybe you'd have to modify some things. I'm sure you know both of these things, but I'm just writing it for completeness sake.

Looking at the above video, I can see a few things:

Wrist seems more relaxed on the backswing. I believe this because the blade's tip travels closer to his pelvis than yours does. It also starts lower, closer to the pant line of the shorts.

If you look at his butt, you can see it moves around a lot. This suggests the pelvis changes location or angle. It seems to me like a lot of the angular deflection happens in the hip joint, with the torso changing angle more than the legs. I think the legs do straighten slightly.

On some shots, he jumps by pushing off the ground. Before the shot, he jumps "forward" and does some kind of set; this helped me a lot in drills but I'm not sure how to use it in games or if I ever did. On some shots, he thrusts his hips forward, probably to adjust for the position of the ball.

His backswing is straighter forward and ends with an open wrist. To me it looks like you are holding back slightly. This is exactly how my stroke was last time I played after a long hiatus, so maybe this is something that will improve naturally. You said you haven't played for almost a year, so that might be affecting it.

You identified a lot of this in the first post, so I think the only thing missing is to go and do it. Maybe film a few short videos where you don't worry if the ball goes in the net or hits the racket edge, and just focus on swinging how you imagine you should swing, with large, exaggerated motions to make sure you're doing them. Perhaps get your partner to feed you multiball a couple balls at a time so you worry less about keeping the ball in play because it's not a factor at all.

I'm sorry if I come off arrogant with this advice, but that's what I would do.

I think maybe it is a bit different as well when he plays much further back in this video compared to me. Probably more relevant to swing bigger more freely and start with racket lower. Aswell more time to use the body. But I agree it is wise to look at better players and try to cope. Lebrun is probably best example of modern RPB. Yeah, i agree it is important to try to turn wrist a bit, relax arm(almost need to drop a bit then?) then swing freely and also get some momentum from the body. Really evident that xu xin used body more than me. . Feel like Lebrun have racket pretty high and go forward, almost a bit down. I believe that the able to swing freely and be relaxed probably also have something to do how i grip the racket and how hard it sits in the hand.
I also think multiball is good. Get a dead ball and learn to create power by myself. I know some coaches do this with a bare blade to get a dead ball.

No not arrogant at all. I appreciate the help.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think maybe it is a bit different as well when he plays much further back in this video compared to me. Probably more relevant to swing bigger more freely and start with racket lower. Aswell more time to use the body. But I agree it is wise to look at better players and try to cope. Lebrun is probably best example of modern RPB. Yeah, i agree it is important to try to turn wrist a bit, relax arm(almost need to drop a bit then?) then swing freely and also get some momentum from the body. Feel like Lebrun have racket pretty high and go forward, almost a bit down. I believe that the able to swing freely and be relaxed probably also have something to do how i grip the racket and how hard it sits in the hand. Thanks for the feedback.

I agree. You would probably need to feed yourself a similar ball and stand in the same spot. This video is from a while ago, and to me it seems like the game has changed since then. With that in mind, physics doesn't really change year after year, so there's a lot of similarities, especially when looping backspin.

Here is an example. I've snipped some images from the videos to compare. Of course it's not some scientific comparison, but I would be comfortable saying that there is more change in the height of the shoulders, maybe twice as much. Perhaps if you are able to replicate that, you can find something.

 

[Lula]

I agree. You would probably need to feed yourself a similar ball and stand in the same spot. This video is from a while ago, and to me it seems like the game has changed since then. With that in mind, physics doesn't really change year after year, so there's a lot of similarities, especially when looping backspin.

Here is an example. I've snipped some images from the videos to compare. Of course it's not some scientific comparison, but I would be comfortable saying that there is more change in the height of the shoulders, maybe twice as much. Perhaps if you are able to replicate that, you can find something.

View attachment 41018
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Yeah it seems like he uses body more also moves the left arm. Can imagine that if my left arm never moves i probably do not move the body? I also feel like he is able to create space between himself and the ball. I have been trying to do this by thiniking im trying to hug a pilatesball haha. I notice aswell it looks like my upper body is very folded forward. Maybe not as natural then to push from the legs? in my head it also should limit power? I think i many times bend tha back but not the legs haha

Will keep looking at Lebrun, i think he is a good example. Will try to practice some more and see hot it looks. will keep youn guys updated! Thanks for the help!

Edit: watching tabletennis live i notice that Calderano also create this space, but he seems to have wrist turned inward all the time. Also seem to push from the legs.

 

[Lula]

UPDATE:
have been having a massive mancold so have not trained anything.
Feel like i only have moved my arm so i am trying to play more with body and purposely try not to move the arm.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/m5ZF9sj1vUEspmGc9
Here i try to move belly in and out.

New video · Saturday, Apr 18 🎬

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Here i try to push from the legs up and down.

I think i need to do both of these. Just up and down and power goes to much up. Also need to acitive move the arm more. I still think i could hit more on the right side of the ball and forward. Or at least have wrist bent a bit longer.

Feedback appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Archosaurus]

To me it looks like there is more arc on the ball, so the quality has probably increased. Of course you can't really compare hitting into topspin with a human vs hitting into whatever that is with a robot, but it's not an easy change to make anyway.

From here I think you might need a trainer to correct it further. I'm just happy if I haven't misled you; I'm struggling with the exact same thing right now myself after coming back to the sport after so long...

 

[Lula]

To me it looks like there is more arc on the ball, so the quality has probably increased. Of course you can't really compare hitting into topspin with a human vs hitting into whatever that is with a robot, but it's not an easy change to make anyway.

From here I think you might need a trainer to correct it further. I'm just happy if I haven't misled you; I'm struggling with the exact same thing right now myself after coming back to the sport after so long...

I think i know well enought myself to teach the basics good to others, but i think it is easy to get a bit blind so good to hear what others say. I also think Also think technique is kind of relative, can do different ways as long as the quality is good. Probably good to do robot and multiball and just try to get good quality and adjust accordingly. Thanks for the feedback.
Edit: also think there are som different schools of thoughts with focus on different thinks so nice to hear what people say.