Switching from “learning rubbers”

[Haito]

I think that whenever you are selecting any kind of gear, you should not look at top line performance, but instead you should look at YOUR bottom performance in a match conditions.

 

[Archosaurus]

From my perspective the whole subject is missing the point a bit. I could get about the same ball from C53 and Hurricane 3, the limit was always my body and technique. The main difference was that when I played with H3 my legs would kill me the next day.

I tried to make a graph but it's probably not understandable. You understand my point, though. You can produce a similar performance with a rubber costing less than half the cost of the other one just by trying harder.

If you put Max Verstappen into a roadcar on eco tires, he's not going to make the tires produce more force more than a hobbyist driver in a Formula car, even if Max is using the car to the absolute limit and the hobbyist driver is under the limit. The Formula tire will probably be making more force even if driven quite poorly. There was a test a while ago where some guys put F1 slicks onto an MX5 and they were able to produce much better laptimes than with more normal tires, even if the F1 slicks were cold and not managing to warm up. The performance differences in the technology are immense due to the high input forces involved. You can make up for the difference with more efficient usage, but only so much.

I don't think it's like that with table tennis rubbers. At least it doesn't feel like high-end tensor rubbers are multiple times faster and spinnier than low grade Chinese rubbers, and things like Spinsight suggest it's not the case either.

 

[Tyce]

I tried to make a graph but it's probably not understandable. You understand my point, though. You can produce a similar performance with a rubber costing less than half the cost of the other one just by trying harder.

If you put Max Verstappen into a roadcar on eco tires, he's not going to make the tires produce more force more than a hobbyist driver in a Formula car, even if Max is using the car to the absolute limit and the hobbyist driver is under the limit. The Formula tire will probably be making more force even if driven quite poorly. There was a test a while ago where some guys put F1 slicks onto an MX5 and they were able to produce much better laptimes than with more normal tires, even if the F1 slicks were cold and not managing to warm up. The performance differences in the technology are immense due to the high input forces involved. You can make up for the difference with more efficient usage, but only so much.

I don't think it's like that with table tennis rubbers. At least it doesn't feel like high-end tensor rubbers are multiple times faster and spinnier than low grade Chinese rubbers, and things like Spinsight suggest it's not the case either.

Lol no it would be fun if F1 slicks were just way too difficult to handle for a mere mortal but that's just not the case - it's a crapton of rubber surface which if anything makes it easier to handle than road tyres.

Top line TT rubbers absolutely have a minimum skill (and coaching!) level required. Otherwise one will never get the hang of using their potential. The "problem" is that (mostly hybrids and China tacky) have certain properties that could be used to the advantage of the newbie player - yet relying on those properties will still never allow them to use those rubbers to their potential.
For example, some beginners LOVE D09c because it's soooo easy to play - yes, if you don't use any power it's a very predictable rubber, you don't get the bounciness and grabbing the ball with the topsheet is very easy. If you hit flat it's not too fast either. You could even say it's the ultimate beginner rubber! But playing this way, you're not even using 10% of the sponge's capabilities,
In fact, you might just as well be using Mercury 2, which is ~90% cheaper.

But, that's where the potential of the learning rubber ends, while the potential of the advanced rubber just starts. Sticking with too tame of a rubber in that regard will never allow you to make a step, just as much as putting on too advanced rubber will make it (at the very least) extremely hard to make a step.

 

[Archosaurus]

Lol no it would be fun if F1 slicks were just way too difficult to handle for a mere mortal but that's just not the case - it's a crapton of rubber surface which if anything makes it easier to handle than road tyres.

It's easier to generate force in an absolute sense, simply due to the huge performance difference; but easier to handle? Not even close. The lateral dropoff slope on a slick like that is multiple times that of a road tire, same with the thermal slopes. The peaks are also narrower. It's also a few times more camber and pressure sensitive. It's less load sensitive in a relative sense, but in an absolute sense it's also more load sensitive. They're harder to handle in every way if you're trying to optimize its behavior.

However most people can get both of them to under the optimal easily and without special skills. That was my point. Like you said, you might need special skills just to perform basic play with some table tennis rubbers. You don't need to be a racing driver to drive around the block on slicks.

 

[Haito]

I don't think it's like that with table tennis rubbers. At least it doesn't feel like high-end tensor rubbers are multiple times faster and spinnier than low grade Chinese rubbers, and things like Spinsight suggest it's not the case either.

I mean, the core point is "I am not Max Verstapen". My core point was actually that I prefer Rasanter C53 because I do not have to put as much work, BUT I am NOT making any more speed, power or spin (or whatever other arbitrary metric you want put there).

If you want to get more speed or spin, work on your technique, work on the relaxation and tension cycle during table tennis strokes. Analyze what your body is doing. Put all the work to allow you to strike harder.

If you want to use less of your muscles, only then I would upgrade the equipment.

If you do the second thing, without the first thing, you will end up in a loop of excuses and failures. Borrowed power always hits back...

I do not really want to hijack this thread to tell the story of my life, but I am recovered EJ. Once 6 months or so I replace my rubbers with whatever is in the ballpark. I had this one guy last week, who I played with for a year or so, finally I got fed up with his unstable forehand. I walked up to him, literally guided his hand through the stroke (with his consent ofc), and you will not guess. Guy who bought 3 rubbers last month started landing every, single, forehand topspin with good quality. With literally 3 minutes of proper instruction (stolen from the Chinese table tennis lady coach on YT, Global TT and one other channel).

 

[b3N]

Nope, I'll have to take your word for it, but I would still advise against it and here's why:

As a (fairly) new player, there is still a lot of room to grow. Mark V HPS is like a 50s race car on steroids: it's essentially a racing car, but simply not made for this game. You can adjust is with modern suspension and better tyres to make it much faster, but the problem is it's built on an old chassis.
The chassis (the Mark V topsheet) works nothing like modern ones. It has good grip, one of the best (if not the best) of its era, which makes that it can still come up not too far short in today's game - but it does come up short.

Compare it to a semi-modern tensor (Rakza 7 is 2010 and the first wave of Tenergy competitors) and we're talking conceptually different rubbers, built with a philosophy that is still applicable to today's game. You can learn basics with this type of rubber that are transferable to top range rubbers like Dignics and Zyre because in essence, those employ the same tensor effect.
You can't learn the same methods of applying spin with a Mark V topsheet, unless you also want to go and apply speed glue and get the effect that these newer rubbers are trying to emulate.

There's a player at my club, quite decent (better than me) but also quite a few years older than me, who switched from Mark V to R7 soft on his BH a few months ago and while he's still getting used to it, his balls are simply better quality. More spin, faster, he has a much easier time opening up and attacking. That's what a topsheet from this century does vs one that was made half a century ago. And the sooner you make this switch, the more you're going to be able to learn to play it like it's supposed to be played.

I understand club players, especially those who have been playing Mark V for a couple of decades, will simply keep with the fastest Mark V-like option they can get their hands on. And that's fair game! But they have hit a ceiling by sticking with that and will never be able to produce the quality of balls required to move up.

Rigan is an interesting suggestion. I had to read up on it because somehow it looks like an old rubber and I've always ignored it because of that, but it seems to be even more of a friendly entry into tensors (like Vega Intro or something). Good idea if the step to R7(s) feels too much.

I get that. I just thought the Original Extra is so slow, R7 would feel a bit mental as a step up. The super soft tensor rubbers aren't really a thing anymore with the poly balls and you could argue are a little outdated. Rigan is a few degrees harder than R7soft, and is obviously designed as a learning rubber for the new plastic ball (the topsheet is modelled on Mark V). But I've used Mark V HPS and can vouch for it - it's one of the top selling rubbers in Japan even in 2026, so that many people can't be wrong.
Rigan appears to be marketed specifically at a player like Petar, that's all I'll say. He's got too many opinions on here I'll leave it here lol

 

[Archosaurus]

I get that. I just thought the Original Extra is so slow, R7 would feel a bit mental as a step up. The super soft tensor rubbers aren't really a thing anymore with the poly balls and you could argue are a little outdated. Rigan is a few degrees harder than R7soft, and is obviously designed as a learning rubber for the new plastic ball (the topsheet is modelled on Mark V). But I've used Mark V HPS and can vouch for it - it's one of the top selling rubbers in Japan even in 2026, so that many people can't be wrong.
Rigan appears to be marketed specifically at a player like Petar, that's all I'll say. He's got too many opinions on here I'll leave it here lol

I looked at Mark V HPS as a backhand rubber to serve as a step up before going to a tensor, mainly because it's dramatically cheaper than something like R7 or Vega. Do you think that's true or is it more like a fast old style rubber?

 

[DrBean]

You're making multiple points, I think:

1) It's harder for a layman to extract max performance from a table tennis racket than it is for them to do so from a car. Or maybe less generally, from a rubber than a tire.
2) The difference between a fast rubber and a slow rubber is much smaller than say, a slick and a road tire.

However most people can get both of them to under the optimal easily and without special skills. That was my point. Like you said, you might need special skills just to perform basic play with some table tennis rubbers. You don't need to be a racing driver to drive around the block on slicks.

1) It is true table tennis tends to have a flatter learning curve than a lot of other activities, but in your example here you're taking someone off the street who presumably is rather familiar with basic vehicle operation, then comparing it to someone who has - if you're lucky - held a racket a handful of times at best in their lives.

2) If you're comparing rubbers like that then you would have to compare slicks vs intermediates as inverted vs short pips. The road tire equivalent of rubbers would be something like those on premade rackets with no spin at all. The difference then would not be as vast as you say.

You're also ignoring that pros can just hit harder, faster because they're more conditioned to table tennis, and table tennis has - while low - a baseline athletic requirement. It's at all physically demanding to drive around a track, much less a pad. So of course, a pro, on the same racket, will be able to generate more RPS, even on a slow blade and rubber. But, ignoring everything else in the kinetic chain, you yourself CAN feel it AND see it if you use a slow rubber vs a fast rubber. The difference is obvious

I'll leave it at that since I think I've derailed this thread enough but just to close the circle on the original sentiment, and I'm sure you would agree given your comment below, that there is such a thing as a slow rubber.

I don't think it's like that with table tennis rubbers. At least it doesn't feel like high-end tensor rubbers are multiple times faster and spinnier than low grade Chinese rubbers, and things like Spinsight suggest it's not the case either.

 

[Archosaurus]

It is true table tennis tends to have a flatter learning curve than a lot of other activities, but in your example here you're taking someone off the street who presumably is rather familiar with basic vehicle operation, then comparing it to someone who has - if you're lucky - held a racket a handful of times at best in their lives. You're also ignoring that pros can just hit harder because they're more conditioned to table tennis.

I'll leave it at that since I think I've derailed this thread enough but just to close the circle on the original sentiment, and I'm sure you would agree given your comment below, that there is such a thing as a slow rubber.

That's a good point honestly, most people are probably conceptually more familiar with how cars work than how table tennis works. I do think the technology aspect is still important.

I don't really think true "slow rubbers" exist. Honestly most things with an ITTF logo and a brand to them can put out some big shots. It'd have to be crazy hysteretic to be truly slow but the materials used typically don't go above 0.10 loss factor. If you swing hard, you'll get power out of almost anything.

Of course I understand what you mean, in that some rubbers are less or more reactive and will bounce back less or more and so on. I don't remember what it's like to be a complete beginner, but I have noticed that when I've handed my (relatively very slow) setup to beginners, they comment how fast it is and balls fly out, so there's definitely levels to this.

 

[b3N]

I looked at Mark V HPS as a backhand rubber to serve as a step up before going to a tensor, mainly because it's dramatically cheaper than something like R7 or Vega. Do you think that's true or is it more like a fast old style rubber?

I don't want to derail this too much! But yeah you're bang on. Mark V HPS is like a 'factory tuned' Mark V. It brings Mark V into the new era so you can do more with it, like a 'fast control' rubber. The fact it's not a tensor rubbers is precisely why it's so popular. It's in its own category and has excellent feel like the original Mark V.
If you're looking for an entry level tensor the Rigan seems the best bet. TT Roy did an excellent review of it. Also, Victas released a new entry tensor the 'Swat PW Spin' which was extensively tested in Japanese schools. And XIOM have about 10 entry level tensors, of which the Omega III Pro looks most interesting.

 

[DrBean]

That's a good point honestly, most people are probably conceptually more familiar with how cars work than how table tennis works. I do think the technology aspect is still important.

I don't really think true "slow rubbers" exist. Honestly most things with an ITTF logo and a brand to them can put out some big shots. It'd have to be crazy hysteretic to be truly slow but the materials used typically don't go above 0.10 loss factor. If you swing hard, you'll get power out of almost anything.

Of course I understand what you mean, in that some rubbers are less or more reactive and will bounce back less or more and so on. I don't remember what it's like to be a complete beginner, but I have noticed that when I've handed my (relatively very slow) setup to beginners, they comment how fast it is and balls fly out, so there's definitely levels to this.

Slow and fast are relative terms. By definition there must be something slow if there's something fast. If you were to say there's no such thing as a rubber with no bounce, then sure, I would agree. But saying there's no such thing as a slow rubber would only be true if all rubbers in the world bounced the same.

If I told you there's no such thing as a slow car you might asphyxiate from laughter. I understand your original point that the gap between the slowest rubber and the fastest rubber is less than the slowest and fastest tire (or car), but it is not mutually exclusive to there being slow rubbers.

 

[Archosaurus]

Slow and fast are relative terms. By definition there must be something slow if there's something fast. If you were to say there's no such thing as a rubber with no bounce, then sure, I would agree. But saying there's no such thing as a slow rubber would only be true if all rubbers in the world bounced the same.

If I told you there's no such thing as a slow car you might asphyxiate from laughter.

Well, the thing is, there are slow cars, cars which can barely go 20km/h as a topspeed when passenger cars can reach 200+. There hardly exists rubbers like that. That's what I mean.

Of course there are slower and faster rubbers, but calibrating what's "neither slow or fast" is something nobody's agreeing on and will never agree on.

 

[Tyce]

That's because there are many types of fast.
Fast acceleration, high top speed, great cornering grip... Race cars can get great laptime by being good at slow corners.
So what kind of fast do you want?

 

[BackhandSteve]

Hey. I’m a swedish player but I assume i would be around 2100-2300 usatt rating. I think a all wooden blade is best for you. i have used ma lin extra offensive a lot! And stiga clipper wood. But prefer the first one.

Call your local table tennis store its the best option. When I switch equipment i also call my store.

Check out Stiga Mantra/Mantra Pro! Its a good series.

 

[jonol]

I looked at Mark V HPS as a backhand rubber to serve as a step up before going to a tensor, mainly because it's dramatically cheaper than something like R7 or Vega. Do you think that's true or is it more like a fast old style rubber?

I used Mark V HPS for about 2 months before using the R7. When I moved to the R7 it felt significantly better in almost every way. The HPS has fantastic control and is good for blocking, but it is not very well suited for a proactive attacking game. It felt nothing like a tensor to me.

If I was to go through my beginner-intermediate phase again, I would start with R7 Soft on both wings from the beginning.

My experience is that the R7/Soft have the right balance of spin and speed to encourage players to play more assertively. If you contact the ball right, they will produce a high quality shot. If you're slightly off, it will still often land on the table. When you do miss, it's easy to know why and you can adjust.

 

[Archosaurus]

I used Mark V HPS for about 2 months before using the R7. When I moved to the R7 it felt significantly better in almost every way. The HPS has fantastic control and is good for blocking, but it is not very well suited for a proactive attacking game. It felt nothing like a tensor to me.

If I was to go through my beginner-intermediate phase again, I would start with R7 Soft on both wings from the beginning.

My experience is that the R7/Soft have the right balance of spin and speed to encourage players to play more assertively. If you contact the ball right, they will produce a high quality shot. If you're slightly off, it will still often land on the table. When you do miss, it's easy to know why and you can adjust.

I ended up going for Vega Europe DF which I will swap on later, but R7 Soft is definitely on my list too, maybe after this one.

 

[jonol]

I ended up going for Vega Europe DF which I will swap on later, but R7 Soft is definitely on my list too, maybe after this one.

I believe the Vega Europe is probably fairly similar to the R7 Soft. More like a different flavour of soft rubber but it will likely have similar spin/speed etc.

 

[Tyce]

The Df version is softer than R7 soft, so if you want a step up again but like the general feeling, going for regular Europe next time would be a good idea