Past Innerforce users - what did you move to and why?

[Tyce]

Where? Lol


It might be a lot to adjust to, but I think its worth it to add an outer ALC blade to your test pool to see if you vibe with it. Pro 01 or D715 are both pretty cost effective and well built Viscaria-type blades to get a taste for outer ALC

I have tried a Pro 01 in the past, and I currently have a FZD ALC in the test pool I do actually like it and there's a realistic chance I do go in that direction.

I just dressed the next test batch of FH rubbers:

Ma Lin Carbon with Battle 2 38 (wondering if that doesn't reverberate like H3N orange sponge makes it do, and pretty much the last chance I am giving this type of rubber)

IFL ALC with T19 (felt great on the Ma Lin Carbon and I wonder if it makes the IFL work better. Made such a big difference on Ma Lin that I have to try, and not having to adjust to a new blade *would still* be the better option.)

FZD ALC with G1/C1 to make a direct comparison to my current blade with the same rubbers.

After this round I hope to be a lot closer to my next "main" setup. I have also tested G1 on a Sanwei Fextra which paired very well - I'm tempted to make a "slower bat" setup out of it. The Fextra is a little light which has its pros and cons.

 

[steve888]

I have tried a Pro 01 in the past, and I currently have a FZD ALC in the test pool I do actually like it and there's a realistic chance I do go in that direction.

I just dressed the next test batch of FH rubbers:

Ma Lin Carbon with Battle 2 38 (wondering if that doesn't reverberate like H3N orange sponge makes it do, and pretty much the last chance I am giving this type of rubber)

IFL ALC with T19 (felt great on the Ma Lin Carbon and I wonder if it makes the IFL work better. Made such a big difference on Ma Lin that I have to try, and not having to adjust to a new blade *would still* be the better option.)

FZD ALC with G1/C1 to make a direct comparison to my current blade with the same rubbers.

After this round I hope to be a lot closer to my next "main" setup. I have also tested G1 on a Sanwei Fextra which paired very well - I'm tempted to make a "slower bat" setup out of it. The Fextra is a little light which has its pros and cons.

Let us know how it goes, it's very addictive and costly 🫣testing blades and rubbers.

 

[po-stit]

I played a Harimoto ALC with D09c on FH and BH for a few years before moving to the Hugo HAL. I made the switch because I was a bit unsatisfied with the somewhat non-linear response and the high throw angle of the Harimoto/D09c combination.

For me, the HAL/D09c combo solved these issues without compromising on the speed from mid- and far distance. I am very happy with my racket now and every EJ attempt to switch to other material was an utter disappointment so far.

Curious why didnt you try to change rubbers instead of the blade. Don't you notice the high arc and lack on linearity of the 09c on the Hugo HAL?

 

[Tyce]

Let us know how it goes, it's very addictive and costly 🫣testing blades and rubbers.

Buying second hand surely helps 😝 and while that means that especially for rubbers the test isn't 100% accurate, it's enough to know the general feeling for me.
My Tenergy sheets are old but they still show me the difference between T05 and T19 for example.

 

[banbekas]

Where? Lol


It might be a lot to adjust to, but I think its worth it to add an outer ALC blade to your test pool to see if you vibe with it. Pro 01 or D715 are both pretty cost effective and well built Viscaria-type blades to get a taste for outer ALC

I dunno lol.
For real tho, better take Rxton 5. Limba top and Basalt fiber outer.

 

[MOG]

I have been using an Innerforce for 3 months.
It was an upgrade from my Yasaka MLC.

It has very badly affected my serve return and has made it much harder to play against non spinner type players.

Last weekend I switched back to my MLC and instantly played better.

The only thing is my Waran 2 short pips are better on the ALC as its a bit quicker and stiffer, but the adverse effect on my fh is too great and I think I will leaving it behind.

I have bought some NUZN 48 to try on Innerforce as a last hope to use it.

 

[You're Tacky & I Hate You]

I've been playing for about 8 months now with the combo of [Innerforce Layer ALC / Fastarc G-1 FH / Fastarc C-1 BH] and while I can absolutely acknowledge the quality and feeling of the blade, something just isn't clicking for me in the mid-range.

I wonder if your issue isn't with the blade at all.

G1 is a great rubber. Something that makes it stand out and I don't think people talk much about, is it has a much later catapult effect than most other rubbers, which takes some getting used to.

It plays with great control softly at the table. But perhaps you step back and start engaging the sponge more and unexpectedly fire cannons because you don't know where the tipping point of the rubber is?

What you think is "carbon activation" is far more likely to be the catapult effect of the rubber kicking in.

Hope this helps. Good luck on your journey.

 

[Tyce]

I wonder if your issue isn't with the blade at all.

G1 is a great rubber. Something that makes it stand out and I don't think people talk much about, is it has a much later catapult effect than most other rubbers, which takes some getting used to.

It plays with great control softly at the table. But perhaps you step back and start engaging the sponge more and unexpectedly fire cannons because you don't know where the tipping point of the rubber is?

What you think is "carbon activation" is far more likely to be the catapult effect of the rubber kicking in.

Hope this helps. Good luck on your journey.

Good point. What I feel my issue is, is the overlap of carbon and rubber engagement makes for a double complicated crossover point exactly where my game is already iffy. Think FH flicks, active wide placed (FH) blocks, that type of force.
If I make those strokes any harder, the risk of overshooting is huge and there's not much topspin in those to make use of and help dip the ball down.

That being said, I played about 2,5 hours yesterday night, most of it in practice matches with a little warmup, and tested a couple of combinations from my test pool

First, the easiest conclusion: I did not like Battle 2 at 38 degrees (on Ma Lin Carbon). I can tell it's softer, and a little easier to manage over H3N 39 degrees, but I have to admit that I tried pretty much every type of Chinese tacky that appealed to me - and they all failed. The best impression I've had was H3N on Yinhe's Pro 01 and Pro 05, but I don't have the consistency and forward power transfer needed to make good use of this type of rubber.
I've had a MUCH better feeling before using T19 on that same Ma Lin Carbon.

Next, I had T19 on Innerforce Layer ALC. Couldn't really get a good feeling with it unfortunately. I might have to try it again because something was just off. Usually, I play better when switching from Chinese tacky to tensors, but this time that didn't really happen. Undecided.

Last, FZD ALC with G1. Took quite a bit of warmup but I was pleasantly surprised after a while when things started clicking. Not sure if I have the discipline to pull off using this in matches and it's a heavy, powerful combo. But I liked playing with it, and the direct comparison with IFL using the same rubbers was very interesting.

Finally as a litmus test, I took my main IFL/G1/C1 and it played pretty much the easiest of all. Of course that happens!

So do I know where I stand yet? Nope. But I can eliminate some choices for now:

FZD is too much at this stage. The error rates were gigantic and the added benefits minimal, if any. I'm considering to put it up for sale even, just to get it out of my pool and remove the temptation. I wanted to try the Butterfly outer ALC hype, and now I have.

Chinese tacky rubbers are done. Not for me. I just have to admit that at this point. I need that bit of catapult in the small placement game, and I need that digging-in feeling to get the right feedback for looping. And if even a 38 degree Battle 2 isn't giving me enough of those feelings then I don't think anything will. Well, Mercury 2 does a *little* better in terms of feeling but that still doesn't do it for me.
The only way I could get a Chinese tacky to work for me is on outer carbon, and we just concluded that's too much for me.

In general, I'm getting better and better at performing my shots loose and with good acceleration. I some sense it helps to play different bats for that, because it makes me find techniques that work with any bat, and not just getting stuck on the detailed experience of one particular setup.

For the next session, I will change the test pool as follows:

Ma Lin Carbon with G1/C1. Same rubbers, slower blade. I know I like several aspects of this blade already, now let's see how it performs with the rubbers I know best.

IFL ALC with T19 (again). I need to change the BH rubber because I had a Hurricane on there which might have altered the experience of the T19. Probably putting an old T05 on it.

What I also want to do, but don't have enough rubbers for (I'm not disassembling my main blade for it) is try that same G1/C1 combination on the Fextra. I liked how G1 played on it, perhaps due to having to swing a little harder to get speed in the first place, putting the activation treshold in a different, better spot.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

i never played innerforce, but know many people that do and can tell you that these blades are not meant for the midrange.
you can go faster and get yourself an outer carbon blade, maybe something easier to play like Freitas ALC or Outerforce ALC, but since you change equipment quite often i would not advice this route. the better way is the second way and move to a stiff allwood blade, maybe a 7 ply like Korbel SK or a hard 5ply like Falcima.
you can put Glayzer and Glayzer 09c on and have a really intuitive blade that works great on the midrange but is not so fast/bouncy to loose the touch inside the table.

Midrange: SK7 good; Falcima not so good. I have played both and Falcima lack that killing power, that is to say, can be countered easier.

NB: FZD ALC to me is just Viscaria with marketing.

 

[Denso]

Curious why didnt you try to change rubbers instead of the blade. Don't you notice the high arc and lack on linearity of the 09c on the Hugo HAL?

If you only knew , I have tried a bunch of different rubbers, but always came back to the D09c because I love its hardness, the balance of catapult and stickiness and its durability. I have tried a number of Hybrids (V>15 Sticky, K3, MK, G09c etc.) and stickier Chinese alternatives (Battle II, LAC, 8-80), but IMO there is no alternative.

And make no mistake, I love the high arc of the D09c, but the throw angle from the racket is the actual problem. It is difficult to explain, but the Harimoto ALC/D09c combination is relatively sensitive to the bat angle. At least with my technique, I had difficulties to adjust the angle for a power topspin which just barely clears the net. And that's something that has been much easier with the HAL - in fact, I was surprised myself that the throw is so different.

 

[po-stit]

If you only knew , I have tried a bunch of different rubbers, but always came back to the D09c because I love its hardness, the balance of catapult and stickiness and its durability. I have tried a number of Hybrids (V>15 Sticky, K3, MK, G09c etc.) and stickier Chinese alternatives (Battle II, LAC, 8-80), but IMO there is no alternative.

And make no mistake, I love the high arc of the D09c, but the throw angle from the racket is the actual problem. It is difficult to explain, but the Harimoto ALC/D09c combination is relatively sensitive to the bat angle. At least with my technique, I had difficulties to adjust the angle for a power topspin which just barely clears the net. And that's something that has been much easier with the HAL - in fact, I was surprised myself that the throw is so different.

I understand completely. I've only tested the 09c on my HSALC and could not deal with the arc and lack of linearity, was always shooting out of the table. I felt exaclty as you describe, the blade is sensitive to the angle. And i also agree with you, the HAL is so strange, or should i say...has a lot of character that almost overlaps the characteristis of the rubbers. Got so curious about that combination, thanks to you and @TampaBayTableTennis, that i just ordered one sheet of D09c and will compare it to the D05.

 

[jonol]

There is definitely enough power in the Innerforce ALC + Fastarc G1 to play at midrange, but it does require you to generate most of the power, as well as brush the ball. I find that as long as I brush properly, I can hit the ball really hard and it will almost always still land on the table at midrange.

But if you play without generating much of your own pace, then the innerforce ALC can feel very mushy when further away.

Outer carbon is a bit more predictable in that regard, though in my opinion a lot of people with these setups are not hitting with quality at mid distance, they're just keeping the ball on the table. Although at intermediate level, that's a perfectly valid tactic too.

But to be honest from what I've seen in your previous posts, you seem to be set on the idea that something about your current setup just feels wrong. My intuition tells me that this is most likely due to the fact you have skills to improve on, and that your problems actually have nothing to do with the setup. If you change setup, I believe in the longrun you will just be trading one kind of problem for another, because it's actually your skillset you need to change and not your equipment.

But I haven't seen you play for any meaningful amount of time, so I could also be completely wrong and you might feel much more comfortable with an outer carbon and rubbers with a bit more natural bounciness.

I would suggest trying rubbers that give you some more 'free' power in the midrange. I think the C1 is not bad for this, but when I changed to the Vega X I felt like I was getting similar power for less effort, with no loss of consistency or spin (after about a week of adjustment). Tenergy 80 is probably the closest thing to the Vega X from the Butterfly range imo, since you said you wanted something with spring sponge.

 

[Yurifi]

I've been back and forth with inner and outer blades ... and someone said innerblades are not for mid distance? some of them definitely are!

first I had "extra" outer - Axelo - it reminded me of my competition days 25 years ago but had to accept it was "a little bit too fast"

then had 7-ply wood for a while because I just wanted to play and that was the blade I had ... but didn't like and then my dad gave me his magic shrine and that's when it all started. I played with a OSP Palatinus prototype blade, innegracarbon, inner blade with spruce on top. with proper rubbers it was nice, but vibrating like crazy.

by a coincidence I had some work basically next to the table tennis shop where they sell Xiom equipment and got bit by EJ virus. I got TMXi, which I loved a lot, played for almost whole season last year with it, but still had too much vibration.

then went to outer "space" - Hugo ALX and hated it. stiff and harsh. I mean, great blade, just not for me. traded for inner, for Xiom Ice Cream AZXi, still to this day I don't know why I sold it. well, I know, because I thought that I cannot handle a blade with 90g ... and of course I can ...

then went back to outer space again - Xiom HAL, played practically whole season with it, very nice blade but made a crucial mistake when I picked up colleagues MMaze and Viscaria ... and in search for that similar feel I made a totally spontaneous purchase of Donic JO Walnder Gold Edition - I actually went to that shop specifically to buy Donic Zhang Jike New Era, because it had similar construction to MMaze (limba outer) but when I saw JOWGE and held it in my hand it was - I need this, I have to have this. put Nittaku's H3 and Donic C2 on and ... I was like wtf!? what did I buy. I had some Dignics09c quite new at home and it actually fit the strange shape of the JOWGE's head put it on and that was it ...

meanwhile, I got DHS Hurricane Long 5 as a present, actually played with it on one tournament, put Rasanter C53 and Nuzn50 on it and it was quite okay, I loved the C53 so much that I ordered one more set of it, put it on HL5 and ... total disappointment and since the HL5, for unknown reason, isn't the same anymore. cannot get that nice feel again, have no idea what happened ... and went back to JOWGE. put C53 and D09c on it and am a happy camper. loving and enjoying this blade more and more. and that handle, omg, one of the best if not the best I have ever held. the mother of FL handles!
so yeah, very happy with it, enjoy playing with it and that's it for now ... well ... was ... cause I just ordered Viscaria ... 🙈😂

and to end - TMXi, AZXi and especially JOWGE, these are all blades which are AT HOME at mid distance. they become alive there. but I agree that HL5 struggles a bit at midrange ... there are definitely inner blades that can play well at mid distance. I would say BTY Ovtcharov and Franzisca could, too ... the whole new range of Xiom Tetra Chrome Indeed Artemis inner blades can ...

 

[Tyce]

Tonight I had a small test pool:
Ma Lin Carbon with my regular G1 C1
IFL ALC with T19 and T05

So your classic dilemma of changing the blade but keeping the rubbers, or keeping the blade and changing the rubbers. Not as complicated as the previous round and thankfully so, because I am really ready to make a choice here.

I didn't quite like the MLC experience this time. The Nittaku rubbers are so typical, with their firm topsheet, and I don't get the feeling I want out of it. For me, the experience is closer to Hurricane than it is to Tenergy.
The blade is fine and I'm sure I would get used to it.

But I had the right idea putting the Tenergy sheets on my Innerforce. Those rubbers have such a uniform experience and the constant feeling of sponge engagement is very reassuring. I'm still side eyeing Glayzer, but Rozena is off the table. I just don't think having the sponge even softer is going to be a good idea.
The blade just feels good this way. So if I don't have to make a blade switch that's pretty much always the best option.

 

[Tyce]

Went to the store and got to test a few options.
From the test bats, I picked the Primorac wood to try Glayzer 09c, and Outerforce CAF that had Glayzer and Rozena on it.
My idea was to start with the easiest rubbers first and then try something Tenergy.

G09c was a quick write-off. I didn't get a sense of control. It's probably pretty stable and all, but it doesn't feel good and doesn't react like I want it to.
Glayzer and Rozena felt "OK" but didn't work for me either.
Glayzer with the significantly firmer topsheet over Tenergy again took the feeling out of it for me. It was better than G09c, for sure, but still not giving confidence.

Rozena is... Empty? Better synergy between the sponge and topsheet but it doesn't feel like I can do much with the ball. I started netting BH drive balls too, because I expect more speed than what it has.

So I pulled out my own Tenergy test bat, and also picked up a Timo Boll ALC which had T05 and T64 on it and it was instant improvement. I grabbed the balls and put them where I wanted basically.

I also tried my main bat with G1 and C1 and the first thing the shop owner noticed was I started spraying balls much more left and right and I have to agree, very sharp observation.
So weird on paper, but I had much better placement control with T05 than I did with C1 on my BH. It seems like the softer experience really does work better for me. The only concern I have is working the short game but I'll learn.

Long story short, the innerforce stays, and it's getting fresh T19 and T05 for the upcoming season. Opted for 1.9mm to take just a little bit

 

[steve888]

Went to the store and got to test a few options.
From the test bats, I picked the Primorac wood to try Glayzer 09c, and Outerforce CAF that had Glayzer and Rozena on it.
My idea was to start with the easiest rubbers first and then try something Tenergy.

G09c was a quick write-off. I didn't get a sense of control. It's probably pretty stable and all, but it doesn't feel good and doesn't react like I want it to.
Glayzer and Rozena felt "OK" but didn't work for me either.
Glayzer with the significantly firmer topsheet over Tenergy again took the feeling out of it for me. It was better than G09c, for sure, but still not giving confidence.

Rozena is... Empty? Better synergy between the sponge and topsheet but it doesn't feel like I can do much with the ball. I started netting BH drive balls too, because I expect more speed than what it has.

So I pulled out my own Tenergy test bat, and also picked up a Timo Boll ALC which had T05 and T64 on it and it was instant improvement. I grabbed the balls and put them where I wanted basically.

I also tried my main bat with G1 and C1 and the first thing the shop owner noticed was I started spraying balls much more left and right and I have to agree, very sharp observation.
So weird on paper, but I had much better placement control with T05 than I did with C1 on my BH. It seems like the softer experience really does work better for me. The only concern I have is working the short game but I'll learn.

Long story short, the innerforce stays, and it's getting fresh T19 and T05 for the upcoming season. Opted for 1.9mm to take just a little bit

Great summary, I tried a lot those rubbers on the Butterfly innerforce blade, the best one was D05 (1.9) - good mix of control, spped and spin. I found tenergy 05 (2.1) to much catapult for the short or touch game maybe the 1.9 will be better.

 

[Tyce]

Great summary, I tried a lot those rubbers on the Butterfly innerforce blade, the best one was D05 (1.9) - good mix of control, spped and spin. I found tenergy 05 (2.1) to much catapult for the short or touch game maybe the 1.9 will be better.

I don't have the confidence to reliably get enough racket speed to get proper engagement on Dignics - even Glayzer was a challenge.
But I'm still evolving a lot, and very gradually trading tension for looser strokes so who knows what I will play in 2-3 years.
For now, I really need something that I can use now. Because what's been holding me back the most, by far, is a lack of confidence from my rubbers.

So why is this thread about blades?
Well, for one because I naturally have a lot of tension in my system. So I usually play with quite a firm arm and it translates into the blade being under a lot of stress, engaging the carbon before I want to.
This is magnified by a harder topsheet rubber, which I feel I have to put power in to hit through. Those two factors make the window of success pretty small.

The shop owner also pointed out that I made a lot smoother strokes with the softer rubber, and they were landing in a pretty safe place by default with T05 (+-20cm from the baseline) but with Rozena I barely cleared the net with the same shots (which were played with comfortable power) and the shots that did clear, landed in the short 1/3rd of the table.

I gotta put it all together now and play play play, so I can get the smoother gameplay into my system as quickly as possible. And sell the blades that give me doubt

 

[steve888]

Yes dignics 2.1 is harder to engage but I find 1.9 much easier on the innerforce 😊

 

[steve888]

The 2mm Hammond z2 have been trialling and I find its in between dignics and tenergy - it's seems to have close to the control of the dignics and the speed of the tenergy.

 

[steve888]

And I can get the Nitakku Hammond z2 1/2 the price of Dignics or Tenergy