"Fast" vs "Slow" Setups

[Zezima]

So I want to talk about 2 of my setups.
I had a period where I played almost 2years with Long 5 first with rubbers R7 bh and G1 on the fh. Then switched to D09c both sides.
My brother bought me W968-2 with D09c which obviously I played the first time in my last league match back then. And for another 7months till I switched to Petr Korbel.

I am telling this so you know that I have had experience with these setups.

So Anyway the Switch to Korbel happened some time in November last year I think. I had played it with d09c till January or so and since then I have been playing both sides T19 till a couple weeks ago.
Now I was stuck with d09c sheets and am still. So I thought alright lets give it a try on the bh. Worst case it's still the best rubber for me for blocks. Anyway I really didn't miss T19 if anything I have more spin on my bh now.

So today I had the opportunity to train with my new club in germany who I will be playing for next season. They have a 1700TTR,1600TTR and some 1550TTR etc. So much better players overall than what I am used to (usually training with 900-1300TTR in my old clubs).
It was my 3rd Session here.

So first Session: I played with kind of "fresh" T19 Korbel setup vs 1700TTR and I won 3-0 sets quite close I think. I was a 1500TTR player back then. And no he didn't fool around. He told me he struggeled with my spin and for the fact that I could fish and bring his balls back on the table because of my reach. He is a player who I would describe as a controlled looper. Basically same as me. He builds his points through consistent loops instead of straight up using winner openers which I do more than him.

So anyway 2nd Session we didn't play. On the 3rd Session which was yesterday we played and trained together (matchplay in the end).
I trained with the W968-2 With H3n FH and D09c bh. I have honestly no clue and thought the booster will be gone by now? I didn't touch this racket for 7 months and I glued it like 8-9 months ago. So I thought my fh will be slow and hard af.

But nope it played as if it was freshy glued. D09c played extremely well spinny aswell. H3n spinny and fast aswell.
For example we did this drill where I do a fast serve into his bh. He either plays it back to my bh or parallel to my fh. And whenever he played parallel to my fh (active drive not just a passive block) I did 3 winner Topspins straight in a row even. Not only that He couldn't even reach to the balls because how fast I looped them and loaded with spin and the placement was also wide to the fh.

I just say this because I don't think I would be able to do this if the booster was gone? And also as someone who struggles to activate the rubber consistently. I also remember I hated that rubber back then because the sponge felt so hard and dead. Anyway we did some open ups and follow up drills aswell. Some serve and receive. I felt very confident with the setup.

Mistake I mostly did on the fh was that I go on the backfoot when fh looping like my upper body goes to the left and back and my elbow rising up (strokepath being as if I would loop a backspin ball) Those balls would fly out obviously. But whenever I had the weight in the front and rotated only forwards with the hips they would land. I also figured with this setup I have so much more gears. I could loop short I could loop far to the left far to the white line. I didn't have this feeling with t19. It is very one dimensional in comparison. The 1700TTR struggled the most when I looped short and low over the net.
Most mistakes of mine where on the follow through mostly me thinking I have to lift the ball more upwards instead of trusting the setup and just hitting forwards.

The match went 3-0 for him (mostly to 9) and 2nd match I comfortably won in the 5th set so 3-2. First match I tried to win with predictably long serves mostly to his bh practising that drill in match situation. And 2nd match I pulled my good serves reverse pendulum no spin serves and even a serve I saw from craig and I think even Adam does where you throw the ball up don't do shiet on contact and then fool them with a backspin follow through after the ball leaves the bat (oh god this one netted me many points xd) So I basically won because of my service game and on his serve I went 10% less power to do less unforced mistakes. Also this setup felt like a beast in terms of creating spin both wings. With my old setup I also had "enough" spin but this one has clearly 20-30% more even with shorter(but fast executed) strokes. I do have to work a bit more with the T19 to achieve the same outcome. The only downside is when I get a fast long push into my bh or fast no spin serve to my bh. But thats a me problem and I have the same issues looping those balls with the t19 setup. Would need multiball but I can't get it atm.

Then we did doubles against him(1700) and his son (1600). They never lost in last season appearently. Vs me 1600 and I think my partner was around 1400. We won 3-1. And I also played well in that doubles game.

And now to my final question and why I created this thread. How come I could perform so well with such a "different" fast setup even though I was playing with more than half a year with a "slower" setup with much different rubbers (t19)?

Still atleast 4 months left for the new season to begin. I already ordered a T19 for my fh for my Korbel setup (D09c bh and t19fh). Right now I can only train 2x a week. Other options are just too bad or non existent. At most I can try the roboter in my club. But I hate having to install it and then to store away the roboter...

What I definetly want to try avoid is changing setups each training. I also think recreating that W968 setup is difficult especially how h3n seems to change its characteristics. I couldn't hit those shots 7months ago but now after the booster effect is gone (atleast it has to be right?) I can hit it faster and better? Oh and one more thing I also had some issues missing the ball completely. That probably has to do with the slight weight difference and that the W968 is head heavy and also for the fact that I played vs an opponent who also plays with spin so hard to judge the trajectory I guess.

What should I do now? For those who don't know me. Here is a game of mine with T19(6months old so not so spinny anymore) both sides Korbel setup I am the taller younger player:

 

[Matteones]

Just my opinion:

You play at the same level with the two different sets because equipment importance is marginal. If you are a developing player like you are, spending any time trying to optimize it is time lost - unless you have fun doing it, in which case, welcome to do it. But never forget equipment importance is marginal (of course I am not speaking of putting on two 0x pimples, please apply good old common sense).

Now onto the next point: warm/hot spring - summer weather will make your rubbers feel as if they've been boosted, making them significantly softer and more responsive. I feel a clear difference when temperature rise more than 20 degrees celsius outside, even if in the gym it may only be 5-10 degrees difference.

 

[jk1980]

that's a very good point by @Matteones ! if you set yourself up and get acustomed to a setup with H3 (boosted) and a stiffer blade, will you be able to activate it with gyms having a temperature lower than 15 degrees celsius ? Your rubber will feel like a brick and the ball might just fall of it when you try to loop it and cant exert enough force because you are out of position.

Now there are two ways about it. Choose a rubber that is soft enough that it is still playable in cold environments (like your korbel-t19 setup) or prepare to have one setup for summer and one for winter, but it will be hard to find a winter setup rubber that feels exactly like your summer rubber in hardness, spin and throw angle.

I did change from RZEH on FH to Battle 3 '39 when the temperature dropped and i knew i would have to play in some quite cold gyms (some even only having like 10° C), but now i am back with the RZEH since it's quite warm.

The other issue that i would have with the boosted hurricane is just what you spell out. What is the reason for you liking it so much now ? is it the temperature, is it the initial booster, is it the booster not being active anymore (which still will be a different feeling than a non-boosted hurricane out of the box) and how do you want to recreate that rubber performance reliably ?

 

[Archosaurus]

FWIW I played a bit with a 3.5 year old mostly unused H3N and it still felt pretty fresh. Every other rubber I've had which has sat for a while has been completely gone.

In general very incoherent post, though. You're lucky if people will actually read that and give proper advice.

 

[K.K]

as @Matteones already said: you really overcomplicate equipment. you will not play better because of equipment, but because of dedicated training and experience. if you switch all the time you just get confused and loose touch and confidence as clearly shown in your extended post

 

[FunZhendong]

So I want to talk about 2 of my setups.
I had a period where I played almost 2years with Long 5 first with rubbers R7 bh and G1 on the fh. Then switched to D09c both sides.
My brother bought me W968-2 with D09c which obviously I played the first time in my last league match back then. And for another 7months till I switched to Petr Korbel.

I am telling this so you know that I have had experience with these setups.

So Anyway the Switch to Korbel happened some time in November last year I think. I had played it with d09c till January or so and since then I have been playing both sides T19 till a couple weeks ago.
Now I was stuck with d09c sheets and am still. So I thought alright lets give it a try on the bh. Worst case it's still the best rubber for me for blocks. Anyway I really didn't miss T19 if anything I have more spin on my bh now.

So today I had the opportunity to train with my new club in germany who I will be playing for next season. They have a 1700TTR,1600TTR and some 1550TTR etc. So much better players overall than what I am used to (usually training with 900-1300TTR in my old clubs).
It was my 3rd Session here.

So first Session: I played with kind of "fresh" T19 Korbel setup vs 1700TTR and I won 3-0 sets quite close I think. I was a 1500TTR player back then. And no he didn't fool around. He told me he struggeled with my spin and for the fact that I could fish and bring his balls back on the table because of my reach. He is a player who I would describe as a controlled looper. Basically same as me. He builds his points through consistent loops instead of straight up using winner openers which I do more than him.

So anyway 2nd Session we didn't play. On the 3rd Session which was yesterday we played and trained together (matchplay in the end).
I trained with the W968-2 With H3n FH and D09c bh. I have honestly no clue and thought the booster will be gone by now? I didn't touch this racket for 7 months and I glued it like 8-9 months ago. So I thought my fh will be slow and hard af.

But nope it played as if it was freshy glued. D09c played extremely well spinny aswell. H3n spinny and fast aswell.
For example we did this drill where I do a fast serve into his bh. He either plays it back to my bh or parallel to my fh. And whenever he played parallel to my fh (active drive not just a passive block) I did 3 winner Topspins straight in a row even. Not only that He couldn't even reach to the balls because how fast I looped them and loaded with spin and the placement was also wide to the fh.

I just say this because I don't think I would be able to do this if the booster was gone? And also as someone who struggles to activate the rubber consistently. I also remember I hated that rubber back then because the sponge felt so hard and dead. Anyway we did some open ups and follow up drills aswell. Some serve and receive. I felt very confident with the setup.

Mistake I mostly did on the fh was that I go on the backfoot when fh looping like my upper body goes to the left and back and my elbow rising up (strokepath being as if I would loop a backspin ball) Those balls would fly out obviously. But whenever I had the weight in the front and rotated only forwards with the hips they would land. I also figured with this setup I have so much more gears. I could loop short I could loop far to the left far to the white line. I didn't have this feeling with t19. It is very one dimensional in comparison. The 1700TTR struggled the most when I looped short and low over the net.
Most mistakes of mine where on the follow through mostly me thinking I have to lift the ball more upwards instead of trusting the setup and just hitting forwards.

The match went 3-0 for him (mostly to 9) and 2nd match I comfortably won in the 5th set so 3-2. First match I tried to win with predictably long serves mostly to his bh practising that drill in match situation. And 2nd match I pulled my good serves reverse pendulum no spin serves and even a serve I saw from craig and I think even Adam does where you throw the ball up don't do shiet on contact and then fool them with a backspin follow through after the ball leaves the bat (oh god this one netted me many points xd) So I basically won because of my service game and on his serve I went 10% less power to do less unforced mistakes. Also this setup felt like a beast in terms of creating spin both wings. With my old setup I also had "enough" spin but this one has clearly 20-30% more even with shorter(but fast executed) strokes. I do have to work a bit more with the T19 to achieve the same outcome. The only downside is when I get a fast long push into my bh or fast no spin serve to my bh. But thats a me problem and I have the same issues looping those balls with the t19 setup. Would need multiball but I can't get it atm.

Then we did doubles against him(1700) and his son (1600). They never lost in last season appearently. Vs me 1600 and I think my partner was around 1400. We won 3-1. And I also played well in that doubles game.

And now to my final question and why I created this thread. How come I could perform so well with such a "different" fast setup even though I was playing with more than half a year with a "slower" setup with much different rubbers (t19)?

Still atleast 4 months left for the new season to begin. I already ordered a T19 for my fh for my Korbel setup (D09c bh and t19fh). Right now I can only train 2x a week. Other options are just too bad or non existent. At most I can try the roboter in my club. But I hate having to install it and then to store away the roboter...

What I definetly want to try avoid is changing setups each training. I also think recreating that W968 setup is difficult especially how h3n seems to change its characteristics. I couldn't hit those shots 7months ago but now after the booster effect is gone (atleast it has to be right?) I can hit it faster and better? Oh and one more thing I also had some issues missing the ball completely. That probably has to do with the slight weight difference and that the W968 is head heavy and also for the fact that I played vs an opponent who also plays with spin so hard to judge the trajectory I guess.

What should I do now? For those who don't know me. Here is a game of mine with T19(6months old so not so spinny anymore) both sides Korbel setup I am the taller younger player:

Honestly, at this level, buy a Yasaka Sweden Extra + two Rakza 7s and you'll play 10 times better.

It's a departmental level in France, and that's more than enough for that.

 

[Zezima]

Just my opinion:

You play at the same level with the two different sets because equipment importance is marginal. If you are a developing player like you are, spending any time trying to optimize it is time lost - unless you have fun doing it, in which case, welcome to do it. But never forget equipment importance is marginal (of course I am not speaking of putting on two 0x pimples, please apply good old common sense).

Now onto the next point: warm/hot spring - summer weather will make your rubbers feel as if they've been boosted, making them significantly softer and more responsive. I feel a clear difference when temperature rise more than 20 degrees celsius outside, even if in the gym it may only be 5-10 degrees difference.

It's my 5th time overall playing in their hall (2 times because of a "Race Cup") but yesterday it was very hot there I would assume 25-30° when I walked in. This is actually interesting I will bring my measurement with me next time and note it for me if I perform better when its colder or hotter. Body wise definetly when its more around 18-21° - I like when its "colder".

I agree its marginal. But if it's marginal why not chose the equipment where I feel like I have more "gears" and can generate lots of more spin? I still do the same mistakes as you said. What's bothering me is I actually didn't like this setup 8months ago. But I changed my opinion yesterday now I like it.

 

[Zezima]

that's a very good point by @Matteones ! if you set yourself up and get acustomed to a setup with H3 (boosted) and a stiffer blade, will you be able to activate it with gyms having a temperature lower than 15 degrees celsius ? Your rubber will feel like a brick and the ball might just fall of it when you try to loop it and cant exert enough force because you are out of position.

Now there are two ways about it. Choose a rubber that is soft enough that it is still playable in cold environments (like your korbel-t19 setup) or prepare to have one setup for summer and one for winter, but it will be hard to find a winter setup rubber that feels exactly like your summer rubber in hardness, spin and throw angle.

I did change from RZEH on FH to Battle 3 '39 when the temperature dropped and i knew i would have to play in some quite cold gyms (some even only having like 10° C), but now i am back with the RZEH since it's quite warm.

The other issue that i would have with the boosted hurricane is just what you spell out. What is the reason for you liking it so much now ? is it the temperature, is it the initial booster, is it the booster not being active anymore (which still will be a different feeling than a non-boosted hurricane out of the box) and how do you want to recreate that rubber performance reliably ?

Yeah when I tried my H3n 8months ago it was in my old clubs hall I would say where the temperature is more towards 18-20°C and it felt like a brick even though it was freshly boosted. I didn't enjoy the feeling at all. Yesterday in a hotter environment it felt kind of softish. But thats also due to the blade giving you a soft feel aswell. Korbel gives you a "harder" feeling in Comparison.
I definetly enjoy the T19 in my old club when its colder appearently. Thats also the setup I won the club championship this year.

but it will be hard to find a winter setup rubber that feels exactly like your summer rubber in hardness, spin and throw angle.

I mean if I can get accustomed to this setup within one training session is it really a big deal then?
In my matches I obviously could play this W968 setup at home but when I am away I wouldn't know beforehand how hot or cold it would be. And since season starts end of september even in this hall it will get colder. So I would regret the h3n setup mostlikely?

how do you want to recreate that rubber performance reliably ?

this is it I don't know the reason so I can't recreate it. Right now only big factor is the booster is mostlikely gone? I am still unsure how long it lasts if you never touch the blade. But I assume the booster still fades maybe a bit slower if unplayed? And the temparature. It was very hot in the hall.

what is the reason for you liking it so much now ?

I mean I definetly worked on my technique aswell so I swing much better especially in drills. And I just can't get it out of my mind how well I looped those 3 balls in a row wide to his fh where he couldn't even get the time or chance to hit it with his blade.

 

[Zezima]

FWIW I played a bit with a 3.5 year old mostly unused H3N and it still felt pretty fresh. Every other rubber I've had which has sat for a while has been completely gone.

In general very incoherent post, though. You're lucky if people will actually read that and give proper advice.

I honestly put it all out. You are right though. Didn't want to give it to chatgpt since it makes it more robotic and "unnatural" But it's fine if there are people who don't want to read and skip it.

 

[Zezima]

as @Matteones already said: you really overcomplicate equipment. you will not play better because of equipment, but because of dedicated training and experience. if you switch all the time you just get confused and loose touch and confidence as clearly shown in your extended post

I had the same equipment for 8 months. Just tried my old setup for once yesterday. I am not switching my equipment all the time.

 

[K.K]

I had the same equipment for 8 months. Just tried my old setup for once yesterday. I am not switching my equipment all the time.

then i don’t get where the loss of confidence comes from. but i know players that are really good like around 1900 TTR (2200 ustt) but don’t feel any difference when playing different equipment. if you are one of those lucky ones then just choose the cheapest equipment you can get away with, sell all of the other ones, just train and nevermind all of this ej bs

 

[vossi39]

My experience with H3 Neo boosted (playing them for 2 seasons now on W968). Booster does not really vanish. If you don't pull the rubbers from the blade, the "feeling" and playing characteristics don't really change much in terms of hardness. Booster will expand the rubber and make it softer and once glued to the blade that does not change. If you tear it from the blade though, the rubber shrinks (so the rubber condenses back) and even re-boostering will not achieve the same effect any more, since the rubber will get softer than before.
Only thing which changes over time is tackiness (which is due to wear during usage) and that of course will get to a point, where you have less spin. This happens in my case at around 6 months of play (10 hours each week).

So in my view it is really not surprising, that the setup is still more than OK to play after 8 month of not using it.
Why did you like it better than 8 month ago? Given your own description and the knowledge of the other threads you opened, I would assume it is because your technique improved and maybe now you are better able to use the advantages of a H3 Neo on W968 more than you could 8 month ago. Maybe you are using more force (coming from Allwood) and therefore use the sponge of H3 Neo better.

I for sure will not move away from H3 Neos anymore. Tried so many Hybrids in between, but always come back to H3 because of the many gears it has.

 

[biaxialerzug]

Stick with Korbel and T19. Just get used to it. It will help you a lot compared to Dignics and other stuff.

 

[Zezima]

then i don’t get where the loss of confidence comes from. but i know players that are really good like around 1900 TTR (2200 ustt) but don’t feel any difference when playing different equipment. if you are one of those lucky ones then just choose the cheapest equipment you can get away with, sell all of the other ones, just train and nevermind all of this ej bs

the W968 holds a special place. It was a ~900€ birthday present from my lil bro.
Even pros feel a difference changing rubbers only. But I respect your opinion.

 

[Zezima]

My experience with H3 Neo boosted (playing them for 2 seasons now on W968). Booster does not really vanish. If you don't pull the rubbers from the blade, the "feeling" and playing characteristics don't really change much in terms of hardness. Booster will expand the rubber and make it softer and once glued to the blade that does not change. If you tear it from the blade though, the rubber shrinks (so the rubber condenses back) and even re-boostering will not achieve the same effect any more, since the rubber will get softer than before.
Only thing which changes over time is tackiness (which is due to wear during usage) and that of course will get to a point, where you have less spin. This happens in my case at around 6 months of play (10 hours each week).

So in my view it is really not surprising, that the setup is still more than OK to play after 8 month of not using it.
Why did you like it better than 8 month ago? Given your own description and the knowledge of the other threads you opened, I would assume it is because your technique improved and maybe now you are better able to use the advantages of a H3 Neo on W968 more than you could 8 month ago. Maybe you are using more force (coming from Allwood) and therefore use the sponge of H3 Neo better.

I for sure will not move away from H3 Neos anymore. Tried so many Hybrids in between, but always come back to H3 because of the many gears it has.

Back then I only tried for 2-3weeks so 5? Sessions. I mean the H3N rubber. I liked d09c more. Was easier to play with. Quality of my shots was just better overall. It just felt like a dead hard brick back then. Keep in mind it was also winter. And I was playing in a hall around 20°C.

I didn't reglue it was sitting in my racket case all this time with a protector sheet on it.
The only problem rn is can I somehow get the consistency if I would decide to stick with this setup with the next H3n rubber. I would be ultra sad if it felt like a brick again. And the season starts towards winter again so that worries me a little.

I also agree that I have been playing better and made progress in understanding how to "activate" the rubber more. Not so much with the "motion" itself.

I tried it again today in a different hall different balls and I liked it a lot. The setup is so forgiving and I can't explain how that is possible. I tried the T19 korbel setup and it is such a hard feeling in comparison.

Again I could create those crazy fh loops on 3rd ball attack. It was going so well that I told him that he can receive anywhere on the table and I still had a very good success rate. Obviously I am not nervous in training and will be in matches but yeah.

Also during warmup I could loop from the get go with the H3n. It usually takes me 2-3min of failing fh topspin. So that was an interesting observation. I was also looping parallel so the error rate should have been higher because parallel it's less table.

Maybe I just play with both for the next 2-3 weeks or so and then go with my gut feeling. Then I still have 3 months playtime to practise with 1 setup.

 

[Archosaurus]

If you're worried about the H3N being too hard if you buy another sheet, consider buying Provincial. The QC on the sponge hardness is +-1deg like ESN rubbers are. Commercial is all the same but the QC is much looser; I don't remember what it is off the top of my head, but it's more like +-3.

 

[Zezima]

If you're worried about the H3N being too hard if you buy another sheet, consider buying Provincial. The QC on the sponge hardness is +-1deg like ESN rubbers are. Commercial is all the same but the QC is much looser; I don't remember what it is off the top of my head, but it's more like +-3.

this one is provincial. By hard I mean how it felt 8months ago. I didn't like it back then. I got another sheet but that's national from prott

 

[Archosaurus]

this one is provincial. By hard I mean how it felt 8months ago. I didn't like it back then. I got another sheet but that's national from prott

It may have changed for all I know, but you probably just became better. 8 months is enough time for some real development.

I wouldn't waste money on National unless you're a pro and absolutely need a very specific sponge hardness for boosting purposes. You're about 1000 TTR lower than where it becomes efficient to worry about stuff like that.

Commercial is probably fine too, but it can be a crapshoot sometimes.

 

[Zezima]

It may have changed for all I know, but you probably just became better. 8 months is enough time for some real development.

I wouldn't waste money on National unless you're a pro and absolutely need a very specific sponge hardness for boosting purposes. You're about 1000 TTR lower than where it becomes efficient to worry about stuff like that.

Commercial is probably fine too, but it can be a crapshoot sometimes.

National was also gifted by my brother. Gotta have to use it now It sits in my drawer for a year now.

My mind tells me to just give 0 fucks and just play with a setup I enjoy at that time and use up all these rubbers that I have. So blade wise only W968 with the d09c and H3n which I like atm and Petr Korbel with d09c and T19 on fh.

Like who cares nothing is on the line. We are amateurs. I am not gonna lose 100 points because I seem to perform with both setups. And even if I lose points who cares. We play for fun afterall.

Next Season I plan to play in Switzerland and in Germany at the same time. One setup for each League xD

close Thread/

 

[Zezima]

Trained twice with this setup and won the tournament yesterday not dropping a single set till finals and then winning 3-1. I don't understand why this setup performs but it performs. Also the Fh finisher loops are insane. I would need to watch the game once they upload it on youtube. Technique wise I am not sure if it looks "good" but in the match it felt good and effortless. It's as if I can't feel my upper body. Like I am not consciously deciding for a swingpath or anything it just "happens". Temperature wise it was a very hot one atleast 25-27°C+.

Also I found a different club that looks promising for practising with players around and better than my level. They also seem to have a coach who gives groupsessions around 220€ for 10x 90min. To me it looks "alright". He says the coach gives lots of feedback etc. but I still need to go there myself and get to know the players first. If it works out I might reach the "next level" easier. It kinda feels like I am running out of time being 30y already. Gotta calm down and enjoy the path wherever it takes me rating wise.