Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Emin]

Yesterday, I "discovered" something special and eye opening about forehand Looping.

Its essentially sequencing the body parts during the motion leading to a much more effortless transfer of energy overall better economy of motion.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yesterday, I "discovered" something special and eye opening about forehand Looping.

Its essentially sequencing the body parts during the motion leading to a much more effortless transfer of energy overall better economy of motion.

Yes, and the activation needs to be quickened for quicker shots, such that when the ball comes back very quickly you don't have the time to relax everything fully before they're re-activated.

The BH shot is the same, with the difference being that the ball is always quicker as you're usually hitting it in front of your body, so the opportunity to fully relax is less and you're almost always using a less "complete" activation sequence. However, doing it as much as you can is still essential to generate your own power (speed + spin, if for speed only you don't need it, same as on FH).

As such, I've found that it's essential to try to place the ball a bit to the side of your body if you get the opportunity to blast a shot, which goes for both FH and BH.

 

[Emin]

Yes, and the activation needs to be quickened for quicker shots, such that when the ball comes back very quickly you don't have the time to relax everything fully before they're re-activated.

The BH shot is the same, with the difference being that the ball is always quicker as you're usually hitting it in front of your body, so the opportunity to fully relax is less and you're almost always using a less "complete" activation sequence. However, doing it as much as you can is still essential to generate your own power (speed + spin, if for speed only you don't need it, same as on FH).

As such, I've found that it's essential to try to place the ball a bit to the side of your body if you get the opportunity to blast a shot, which goes for both FH and BH.

My problem was that ~60% of the time I would loop "badly", in a linear motion that would be too much effort with non-optimal output of force.

But in faster rallies, even in training drills, where I would have to move to my wide Forehand, re-loop after a 3rd Ball Opening loop or quickly counter loop, I would do it instinctively right.

In Loop-to-Loop exercises, or normal Loop-Block drills where I had time to think and semi-consciously do the technique, I would do it inefficiently.

So my issue was inconsistent technique.

Now that I know about this, I can work on this.

When I first got started with Chinese rubbers, I did this part correctly.
I did most other things wrong, but I had this down ironically 😅 .
With more time and practice, I got more consistent with all other parts of technique, but it led to this linearity and simultaneity of body parts.
Also not getting regular feedback from a trained and experienced coach didnt help.
Most of the feedback I got from others in my club was not helpful and came from people that couldnt do it any better themselves.

Now I am the one getting asked for training and advice .

 

[kindof99]

My problem was that ~60% of the time I would loop "badly", in a linear motion that would be too much effort with non-optimal output of force.

But in faster rallies, even in training drills, where I would have to move to my wide Forehand, re-loop after a 3rd Ball Opening loop or quickly counter loop, I would do it instinctively right.

In Loop-to-Loop exercises, or normal Loop-Block drills where I had time to think and semi-consciously do the technique, I would do it inefficiently.

So my issue was inconsistent technique.

Now that I know about this, I can work on this.

When I first got started with Chinese rubbers, I did this part correctly.
I did most other things wrong, but I had this down ironically 😅 .
With more time and practice, I got more consistent with all other parts of technique, but it led to this linearity and simultaneity of body parts.
Also not getting regular feedback from a trained and experienced coach didnt help.
Most of the feedback I got from others in my club was not helpful and came from people that couldnt do it any better themselves.

Now I am the one getting asked for training and advice .

To me, I feels that you can not create your own power, which is why you are good for fast rallies. Play against a chopper. That is the best way to test whether your technique is fine or not. If you can not get into position, it is your pre-judgement and footwork, not the forehand technique.

 

[dingyibvs]

My problem was that ~60% of the time I would loop "badly", in a linear motion that would be too much effort with non-optimal output of force.

But in faster rallies, even in training drills, where I would have to move to my wide Forehand, re-loop after a 3rd Ball Opening loop or quickly counter loop, I would do it instinctively right.

In Loop-to-Loop exercises, or normal Loop-Block drills where I had time to think and semi-consciously do the technique, I would do it inefficiently.

So my issue was inconsistent technique.

Now that I know about this, I can work on this.

When I first got started with Chinese rubbers, I did this part correctly.
I did most other things wrong, but I had this down ironically 😅 .
With more time and practice, I got more consistent with all other parts of technique, but it led to this linearity and simultaneity of body parts.
Also not getting regular feedback from a trained and experienced coach didnt help.
Most of the feedback I got from others in my club was not helpful and came from people that couldnt do it any better themselves.

Now I am the one getting asked for training and advice .

A lot of people who could do it wouldn't be able to teach it either!

I'm having similar issues, but probably worse than yours as I've only started working on them recently, while still focusing on the BH no less. I think I'm gonna have to readjust my priorities and focus more on FH. I'm trying to work on both the activation sequence, a more right to left rotation, and tucking my elbow to my body during the backswing all at the same time. I think that will require some dedicated training. I've found through my training thus far that while I can loop from FH to FH corner against regular blocks very well, I revert back to my old form when I have to move sideways, and if someone blocks right off the bounce so that the ball comes at me quicker, I have trouble knowing when to shorten the stroke.

My training partner is not available next week, so I'm devising a plan to work with the robot. Starting with balls to my FH with no variation, then varying pace, then varying depth/speed, then two locations, then FH loop from the BH corner, then BH followed by step around FH from the BH corner.

I've always found my FH loop motion to be a bit off compared to well trained players, but not anymore when I can execute my current motion correctly. I'm very happy that I've finally found the most efficient technique, so I'm determined to drill that into my game.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I went to a tournament last Sunday, and it was the best ever ! tough matches all along. even the 2 players in group phase. in R16, the player was a SP penholder attacking with winners almost any ball, the ball was very knuckle and sinking. but he had trouble against fast pushes to his body. Had to grind every ball.

QF the opponent was perhaps technically the weakest, but he played a very unusual tactic being so afraid of counters: he refused to open the rally and then just blocked waiting for the mistake. it almost worked 6-10 in the decider, but then 12-10 ! the last 2 points he missed his FH attack ! the only time he wanted to attack first in the match... his tactic almost worked

With confidence gained from that, the SF and final were won 3-0 against 2 lefties who eliminated some tough opponents whose style is tough to play

--
of course I wasn't the player. I went only as "manager" of the team to support our team ace, from India, to win the All-Japan veteran 50yo+ tournament ! A very special victory !

Very proud of him, and so happy to have helped him a bit from practical stuff, and to give him a good warmup before the tournament. I feel blessed to have him in our team and to be able to practice regularly and learn so much from him.

 

[blahness]

In the pursuit of a FH chiquita off short balls, i was theorycrafting and found potentially the best way to really juice up the spin and power with the wrist. This is achieved by using the BH rubber on the FH side (even when using a FH stroke). It is a bit like a reverse shakehand FH loop in a sense. Similar to BH chiquita, there is ample room for the wrist movement and the best thing is that you can backswing above the table.

 

[blahness]

FH chiquita concept looks like this (obviously will need to add footwork and body rotation later on)

Very similar to the "world fastest serve" movement. You can even disguise it with a FH push preparatory movement.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, except that it is a completely new stroke to learn. If a shakehand player could do chiquita on both BH and FH, there is literally no "safe place" to serve to avoid getting attacked on the receive, except for super heavy pure short backspin serves

 

[Ghostzen]

FH chiquita concept looks like this (obviously will need to add footwork and body rotation later on)

Very similar to the "world fastest serve" movement. You can even disguise it with a FH push preparatory movement.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, except that it is a completely new stroke to learn. If a shakehand player could do chiquita on both BH and FH, there is literally no "safe place" to serve to avoid getting attacked on the receive, except for super heavy pure short backspin serves

There's a European player who uses a technique very similar. Let me try and dig out the link. Its very hard to read and indeed very powerful. Come back after practice and see where I put the clip.

 

[dingyibvs]

Just received my FTL booster, promptly slathered a nice thick layer on 2 used sheets of D09c. I plan to boost with 2 layers and then glue them onto my backup blade, the provincial W968. I should get my H3BS 40 and H3OS 37 tomorrow as well, and I'll boost them with 2 layers of Seamoon and mount them onto my national W968. It'll be an interesting comparison for sure!

 

[NextLevel]

When your play is in disarray, the only way is to EJ lol. I had built a Donic Carbospeed with H3 on both sides but I juat didn't like how it played. I tried to move the rubbers onto other paddles but they just didn't fit. So I stuck them on a Mazunov and they fit. And the bounce didn't seem too bad. So I decided to try all wood again. Of course a Mazunov is faster than your usual all wood blade but for me, the difference is really in close to the table blocking and countering., I have better feel for this with an all wood blade. I might have to accept that my attempts so far to transition to a modern speed based style have been a failure. That said, I think the key is still to focus on movement and health and let the chips fall where they may. The other possibility is to consider a softer fast blade like an SALC. But this is not what I have in mind at the moment

 

[SleepyMaster]

When your play is in disarray, the only way is to EJ lol. I had built a Donic Carbospeed with H3 on both sides but I juat didn't like how it played. I tried to move the rubbers onto other paddles but they just didn't fit. So I stuck them on a Mazunov and they fit. And the bounce didn't seem too bad. So I decided to try all wood again. Of course a Mazunov is faster than your usual all wood blade but for me, the difference is really in close to the table blocking and countering., I have better feel for this with an all wood blade. I might have to accept that my attempts so far to transition to a modern speed based style have been a failure. That said, I think the key is still to focus on movement and health and let the chips fall where they may. The other possibility is to consider a softer fast blade like an SALC. But this is not what I have in mind at the moment

I stick to BTY Revoldia for now, it’s pretty fast blade. I would say 5% slower than FZD alc. It has some fiber in it, but not carbon. Definitely better for me than pure wood, and since I didn’t play as much as I used to - I find it suits me.

SALC is good also but has lower throw and long trajectory - that leading to one or two unforced errors that could cost me a match. But I see a lot of guys about 1800-2000 level that are using it without much problems, so I think it’s a matter of training and getting used to it. Overall SALC has nice feeling, that is really surprised me, considering the speed of it

 

[jk1980]

i had tried to use the K3 as my main forehand rubber for the last few weeks it felt quite nice. The short game was exceptional. Far away from the table it was also very good. The few half-distance/far distance power loops i did with it were really nice and mostly direct points, but reviewing my training footage i found a few occurances of unexplainable "slips" of the ball into the net, when looping.

Reviewing the video the movement was not very fast, but fast enough for it to send the ball over the net with most rubbers.
During that training session i had a match against a training mate which i lost. I had used the racket with the k3 the whole training before (so approximately 60 minutes and the weeks before as well), so i would assume that i was used to it. After the first loss of the training match i said i would want a rematch and grabbed my old "first" racked which had the Rakza Z. My opponent said "are you sure ? you are accustomed to the other blade now and did not even warm up with this!"- Long story short i instantly won with the Rakza Z blade. Basically everytime i was perhaps out of position the tackiness of the Rakza Z would allow me to still loop the ball, while it might have been plunging into the net with the K3 because i would not be able to get enough contact with the ball to activate the sponge.

Talking to that training mate he told me that he also tried many rubbers but now plays with slower rubbers, because otherwise his loops would be flying out of the table all the time. He plays an innerforce (harimoto) with Hexer Powergrip or something.

Following the thought of "slowing down the equipment to gain more consistency" i decided to use the next club training session (where we basically just do matches) to use a slower setup. From the W968 with Rakza Z(max) and PK50 Sieger, i would change to the Victas Dyna Five with Rakza Z (2.0) and G-1 (2.0) on BH. The result was really disappointing. Forehand on and at the table was nearly identical. No gain in control when doing pushes with the 5ply wood compared to the W968. Looping back hand with the G-1 was obviously way easier than with the PK50, but at the loss of the ability to really put heavy underspin in pushes. The only thing noticebly different was that i needed way more power to forehand loop from half distance and far away from the table. I had to put my whole body into it.

In the last training match of the evening i switched back to the w968 with the Rakza Z in max and there was basically no change in consistency. Everything felt like returning back home. Loops landed at the end of the table automatically and i did not loose any consistency really. Perhaps i am just used to the w968 that much now, that there is nothing to gain from a 5ply wood in the short game.

I will replace the K3 with the Nittaku Genextion tomorrow and hopefully get a few drills in with it. Let's not kid ourselves. In system training many rubbers work so i expect the Genextion to be working as well.

 

[dingyibvs]

i had tried to use the K3 as my main forehand rubber for the last few weeks it felt quite nice. The short game was exceptional. Far away from the table it was also very good. The few half-distance/far distance power loops i did with it were really nice and mostly direct points, but reviewing my training footage i found a few occurances of unexplainable "slips" of the ball into the net, when looping.

Reviewing the video the movement was not very fast, but fast enough for it to send the ball over the net with most rubbers.
During that training session i had a match against a training mate which i lost. I had used the racket with the k3 the whole training before (so approximately 60 minutes and the weeks before as well), so i would assume that i was used to it. After the first loss of the training match i said i would want a rematch and grabbed my old "first" racked which had the Rakza Z. My opponent said "are you sure ? you are accustomed to the other blade now and did not even warm up with this!"- Long story short i instantly won with the Rakza Z blade. Basically everytime i was perhaps out of position the tackiness of the Rakza Z would allow me to still loop the ball, while it might have been plunging into the net with the K3 because i would not be able to get enough contact with the ball to activate the sponge.

Talking to that training mate he told me that he also tried many rubbers but now plays with slower rubbers, because otherwise his loops would be flying out of the table all the time. He plays an innerforce (harimoto) with Hexer Powergrip or something.

Following the thought of "slowing down the equipment to gain more consistency" i decided to use the next club training session (where we basically just do matches) to use a slower setup. From the W968 with Rakza Z(max) and PK50 Sieger, i would change to the Victas Dyna Five with Rakza Z (2.0) and G-1 (2.0) on BH. The result was really disappointing. Forehand on and at the table was nearly identical. No gain in control when doing pushes with the 5ply wood compared to the W968. Looping back hand with the G-1 was obviously way easier than with the PK50, but at the loss of the ability to really put heavy underspin in pushes. The only thing noticebly different was that i needed way more power to forehand loop from half distance and far away from the table. I had to put my whole body into it.

In the last training match of the evening i switched back to the w968 with the Rakza Z in max and there was basically no change in consistency. Everything felt like returning back home. Loops landed at the end of the table automatically and i did not loose any consistency really. Perhaps i am just used to the w968 that much now, that there is nothing to gain from a 5ply wood in the short game.

I will replace the K3 with the Nittaku Genextion tomorrow and hopefully get a few drills in with it. Let's not kid ourselves. In system training many rubbers work so i expect the Genextion to be working as well.

W968 is not very fast until you put a TON of power into it, I had no trouble with the short game when I switched between W968 and the Yasaka Sweden Extra. It took months to land loop drives well though. It's a very non-linear blade, best when you avoid mid-range power shots. It's soft touch shots or full power shots. Mid-power shots are very inconsistent as you're in the transition zone, it could tank into the net or overshoot with a little less or more power.

I'm not gonna fight it, the D09c is a solid pair that accentuates these characteristics, but still lacks a bit dwell at least when unboosted when I really ramp up the power. I'm gonna see if H3 can take care of that, even if it's not quite as fast.

 

[NextLevel]

No rubber I have ever played with takes power like H3. The problem of course is that the spin up shots Euro style are nothing compared to say Tenergy 05 or even Rakza Z, but the loop kills are singularly special, you wonder how a ball with so much power just doesn't bounce. And I haven't even tried the notorious blur sponge yet.

 

[jk1980]

W968 is not very fast until you put a TON of power into it, I had no trouble with the short game when I switched between W968 and the Yasaka Sweden Extra. It took months to land loop drives well though. It's a very non-linear blade, best when you avoid mid-range power shots. It's soft touch shots or full power shots. Mid-power shots are very inconsistent as you're in the transition zone, it could tank into the net or overshoot with a little less or more power.

that does totally make sense and explains my experiences with the blade in combination with the K3 and the Rakza Z.
While the mid-power shots are not strong enough to activate the K3 sponge, hence perhaps dropping into the net (due to the lack of support of the w968), when i use the Rakza Z, the easier to activate sponge of the softer Rakza Z will bridge the speed gap on those half-a$$ed shots.
With the K3 it is only 2 gears for me. No catapult in the short game or power loop. With the Rakza Z it feels more fluid or at least i can play mid-power shots with sponge support.

I really hope that the Nittaku Genextion somehow has more gears than the K3 as well. I would not want to full power loop on service receive all the time.

 

[dingyibvs]

I used 2 fairly thick layers of FTL, perhaps it was a bit too much? Will wait a bit to make sure it's 100% absorbed (looks dry right now, but only about 8 hrs after last application) then glue it this evening and see.

 

[dingyibvs]

that does totally make sense and explains my experiences with the blade in combination with the K3 and the Rakza Z.
While the mid-power shots are not strong enough to activate the K3 sponge, hence perhaps dropping into the net (due to the lack of support of the w968), when i use the Rakza Z, the easier to activate sponge of the softer Rakza Z will bridge the speed gap on those half-a$$ed shots.
With the K3 it is only 2 gears for me. No catapult in the short game or power loop. With the Rakza Z it feels more fluid or at least i can play mid-power shots with sponge support.

I really hope that the Nittaku Genextion somehow has more gears than the K3 as well. I would not want to full power loop on service receive all the time.

For service receives you probably just have to brush loop most of the time as that doesn't involve the blade. The issue with the W968 is really with the BH, as it's hard to generate the power to use it properly on the BH side all the time.

 

[jk1980]

For service receives you probably just have to brush loop most of the time as that doesn't involve the blade. The issue with the W968 is really with the BH, as it's hard to generate the power to use it properly on the BH side all the time.

yes, that is what i would do with the Rakza Z and it's tacky surface would help lift the ball with the slightest of contacts.
With the the K3 though it is basically much harder, because for brush looping i have to activate the rubber, but not the sponge which basically leaves around 1,7mm of leeway. If the ball penetrates the rubber and reaches the hard sponge of the K3 it will basically propell the ball out of the rubber and make the ball drop. With the Rakza Z i can even penetrate the sponge a little without the ball being thrown out of the rubber.

At least that is how I explain these odd occurances to myself.

 

[jk1980]

Looking back at the situation, of course i could have simply be quicker to get into position and hit the ball early. Perhaps the Rakza Z made me lazy, because i was able to loop the balls over the net even when hitting them too late (basically next to me instead of inside the golden triangle). The first few balls show how that miserably fails with the K3 (basically not engaging the sponge properly i guess) and the ball falls into the net, while with an equally slow arm movement i can play these balls with the Rakza Z (last two balls in the video / from 00:24 seconds on).