Matchplay Footage and Counterlooping Practice Footage

[DoctorPaco]

I guess it's about time I showed you guys how I play, it's best I put it all out there for better reference to my technique and skill level. I'm posting this here in public for feedback on my game since my coach doesn't give me too much feedback. Thanks!


These were shot after three hours of play.
My win to loss ratio against my opponent in the videos is about 60-40. But I lost both matches 3-1.

Match 1

Counter looping Practice (done right after match 1)

Match 2 (2 minutes after counter looping practice)

EDIT: this was cut because my phone ran out of memory. :/

Input much appreciated! I'd actually love to get some constructive criticism, but that will be the only kind of criticism I will tolerate.
P.S. anyone think they could give me a USATT rating based on this video?
Thanks again!

 

[bobpuls]

Hmmm and which one is you ?

 

[DoctorPaco]

Hmmm and which one is you ?

The one in black and purple Nittaku. The shorter one.

 

[darnner123]

Hellooooooo
I think the 2nd vid is loop to loop not counterloop.

 

[Xylit]

Your counterloop practice is not really counterlooping in my opinion. Your partner does not play any topspins at all.

I'd estimate you on something between 1550 - 1650 TTR (German) points, that would be approximataly something between 1850 - 2050 USATT.

 

[DoctorPaco]

Your counterloop practice is not really counterlooping in my opinion. Your partner does not play any topspins at all.

I'd estimate you on something between 1550 - 1650 TTR (German) points, that would be approximataly something between 1850 - 2050 USATT.

Thanks! I didn't expect a rating of USATT of over 1600 since I've only been playing for 13 months.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks! I didn't expect a rating of USATT of over 1600 since I've only been playing for 13 months.

He is looking at your form and missing a lot of other details. I agree with you.

 

[Archosaurus]

Take half a year to analyze your strokes and then drill it until you can do it in your sleep. After that, go for the most aggressive attack you can on every single ball until you can comfortable attack everything your partner would throw at you. He is giving you tons of chances.

Forget all the technical mumbo jumbo, make sure your basics are correct.

Push forward instead of up or to the side. Don't jump when you loop. Don't backswing so much. Swing faster. Don't ever reach unless you have under .5 sec to react. Always keep your knees bent low, you should feel it in the legs. Move as fast as you possibly can without wasting a nanosecond. Once you decide to do something, go for it even if you're going to miss.

My form was like yours half a year or so ago, but I trained intensely and made sure my mechanics are solid and I am essentially always doing the same stroke with as little variation as possible. You should as well.

Imagine you're -your favorite player here- and you're responding to the ball you're getting. What would he do? Do it. Even if you miss. Just try it, don't care if you miss completely, and if you do, find out WHY and fix that preferably on the next stroke.

If you can't figure out what you're doing wrong, check the film and compare. Try it more. Keep missing, keep figuring it out. You must know exactly what you're doing wrong, EVEN if you can't at this moment do what is right. As long as you know, you can improve and work towards doing what is right.

Don't settle for a subpar return or form: you should always attack every ball with 100% assertiveness and confidence, and play every touch shot with 100% concentration and purpose to make your opponent screw up or at worst set up a winner. If you do a really sweet shot that barely goes over the edge or into the net, but your form was good and you believed you could make the shot, you can cho in your mind, and keep doing that until it hits. You should be very surprised when anything you do goes wrong.


The way I went from essentially no backhand to a very solid backhand loop was finding out the form, shadowing that for about a month straight and trying to hit a ball onto the table by throwing it up then hitting it after the bounce on the ground at about mid distance, and as soon as I felt I had good form and I could do what I want to do with my loop, I started attacking everything with absolute confidence and belief that I can land the shot. I didn't call my loop any good until I could consistently hit full power loops from the top of the bounce to the last centimeter of the table's back edge, over and over.

Of course, doing this won't instantly make you USATT 2700 and you'll be able to attack anything like the top Chinese can, but I believe this is the single biggest fault in your game right now preventing you from looking and playing somewhat "professional". Lack of polish and early development in mechanics, essentially.

I think you could jump up in rating tremendously if your footwork and stroke form is consistent and you're always 100% sure you will hit the shot.

Also, focus on ONLY one thing at a time when drilling strokes. Don't stop drilling that stroke until it's good. If your goal is to improve your forehand attack on easy balls, or to raise your standard of stroke to be able to attack more and with more consistency, keep that as the "theme" for your training.

You can develop and attempt to play multiple strokes in the same session and same time period, but your FOCUS should be on only one thing. One day at a time.

If you're developing your forehand but you're forced to play a backhand, you're not going to do anything bad if you miss the backhand because you're developing your forehand, so go for it and attack it with all you've got. If you hit it, cool. If not, well, who cares, your focus is your forehand.

I'm afraid I can't give more detailed information (There's more "qualified" people to do that here, anyway.) but I still wanted to take my time to write this post because I don't want you to get stagnated at your level.

Just remember that the real difference between a pro and you is not that they can hit much harder or with more quality. The real difference is that their worst stroke is way beyond your best in terms of consistency.

You need to even the gap with raising your overall level of execution. For me, it works best in striving for higher quality instead of simply more balls "barely returned" very poorly. If you practice a bad return, you will get good at a bad return.

 

[DoctorPaco]

Take half a year to analyze your strokes and then drill it until you can do it in your sleep. After that, go for the most aggressive attack you can on every single ball until you can comfortable attack everything your partner would throw at you. He is giving you tons of chances.

Forget all the technical mumbo jumbo, make sure your basics are correct.

Push forward instead of up or to the side. Don't jump when you loop. Don't backswing so much. Swing faster. Don't ever reach unless you have under .5 sec to react. Always keep your knees bent low, you should feel it in the legs. Move as fast as you possibly can without wasting a nanosecond. Once you decide to do something, go for it even if you're going to miss.

My form was like yours half a year or so ago, but I trained intensely and made sure my mechanics are solid and I am essentially always doing the same stroke with as little variation as possible. You should as well.

Imagine you're -your favorite player here- and you're responding to the ball you're getting. What would he do? Do it. Even if you miss. Just try it, don't care if you miss completely, and if you do, find out WHY and fix that preferably on the next stroke.

If you can't figure out what you're doing wrong, check the film and compare. Try it more. Keep missing, keep figuring it out. You must know exactly what you're doing wrong, EVEN if you can't at this moment do what is right. As long as you know, you can improve and work towards doing what is right.

Don't settle for a subpar return or form: you should always attack every ball with 100% assertiveness and confidence, and play every touch shot with 100% concentration and purpose to make your opponent screw up or at worst set up a winner. If you do a really sweet shot that barely goes over the edge or into the net, but your form was good and you believed you could make the shot, you can cho in your mind, and keep doing that until it hits. You should be very surprised when anything you do goes wrong.


The way I went from essentially no backhand to a very solid backhand loop was finding out the form, shadowing that for about a month straight and trying to hit a ball onto the table by throwing it up then hitting it after the bounce on the ground at about mid distance, and as soon as I felt I had good form and I could do what I want to do with my loop, I started attacking everything with absolute confidence and belief that I can land the shot. I didn't call my loop any good until I could consistently hit full power loops from the top of the bounce to the last centimeter of the table's back edge, over and over.

Of course, doing this won't instantly make you USATT 2700 and you'll be able to attack anything like the top Chinese can, but I believe this is the single biggest fault in your game right now preventing you from looking and playing somewhat "professional". Lack of polish and early development in mechanics, essentially.

I think you could jump up in rating tremendously if your footwork and stroke form is consistent and you're always 100% sure you will hit the shot.

Also, focus on ONLY one thing at a time when drilling strokes. Don't stop drilling that stroke until it's good. If your goal is to improve your forehand attack on easy balls, or to raise your standard of stroke to be able to attack more and with more consistency, keep that as the "theme" for your training.

You can develop and attempt to play multiple strokes in the same session and same time period, but your FOCUS should be on only one thing. One day at a time.

If you're developing your forehand but you're forced to play a backhand, you're not going to do anything bad if you miss the backhand because you're developing your forehand, so go for it and attack it with all you've got. If you hit it, cool. If not, well, who cares, your focus is your forehand.

I'm afraid I can't give more detailed information (There's more "qualified" people to do that here, anyway.) but I still wanted to take my time to write this post because I don't want you to get stagnated at your level.

Just remember that the real difference between a pro and you is not that they can hit much harder or with more quality. The real difference is that their worst stroke is way beyond your best in terms of consistency.

You need to even the gap with raising your overall level of execution. For me, it works best in striving for higher quality instead of simply more balls "barely returned" very poorly. If you practice a bad return, you will get good at a bad return.

THANKS SO MUCH! This advice is exactly what I was looking for when I posted. What you pointed out that I was lacking is also what I felt was lacking, I just didn't know how to get around them and improve my stroke. So I guess the robot would be my best tool to improve shot effectiveness and consistency? (I have one at home)

 

[Archosaurus]

I suggest ditching the robot at first, and throwing the ball up from mid distance and hitting it when it bounces up from the ground. This sounds simple and like "bad practice" because the ball has no or little spin on it, but you'd be surprised how good this is at eliminating everything except your mechanics and timing. Just make sure the ball's apex is properly high, so throw it comfortable high.

My reasoning is that if you can't hit a simple ball like this, you can't hit anything. It even eliminates the bounce off the rubber, so you are entirely on your own power when doing the stroke so it is easier to understand if you're applying too much power or too little, or too much spin or too little.

Once you can land consistent and medium power/medium spin shots with this method, hitting near the endline, use the robot to drill your stroke on incoming pace and spin and to learn to time the stroke when the ball is coming at you, instead of dropping down.

The reason you want to learn first when it is dropping down is because you're less likely to want to do a rubbish stroke and you need a little better timing and rhythm to hit the ball well. Take your time, and think for 10 seconds or so why you missed and what felt right and what felt wrong. Go and pick up the ball you hit, don't take from a bucket.

The robot is there to add some "realism" to the situation, so you can deal with spin and pace a little, and so you need to be more aware of the timing, because the return is coming to you, you're not deciding when it comes and you can't delay it. So you're forced to execute in a timely fashion.

Once that is good, up the pace and spin a bit, and practice against different spin. Then when that's too easy, set the robot to move you around very slowly, and focus on mechanics and rhythm. Then up the pace and spin again.

I do not have extensive experience with robots, so you can do what feels best/what people recommend to you. I highly advise using my "ball throw" method, because you are 100% focused on only the quality, and you don't want to make a bad shot and have to walk to pick up the ball after a bad shot, you want to feel that you did a good shot. Just decide what shot you want, from where to where, then throw the ball and do it. If you did what you wanted, great.

 

[DoctorPaco]

Thanks again! I guess I should've joined this forum earlier eh?

 

[Archosaurus]

While other people's feedback is good, you need to find a way to improve on your own.

I think the key is to recognize your faults and assess them realistically, and develop a way to deal with them. That's what I did, thus the ball throw method for learning new strokes.

 

[NextLevel]

I wish I could see Archosaurus play. Some good stuff in there as well as some (especially psychologically) dangerous advice.

But OP is young. He has time to figure it out and the dangerous advice may be enough anyways.

DrPaco,

For playing 13 months, your game is excellent. There are things you can work on and which I will comment on later, after watching the videos, but you are on a good path. Who is your coach?

 

[Archosaurus]

I would also love to post footage, but I simply can't. I don't even really play right now, apart from some friendly games on our school's table, because the people there are actually half decent these days. I can at least train my touch play against them.

Once my living condition is more stable and I have a regular club, which is in a few years the most, I will definitely post footage perhaps everyday.

I am giving "dangerous advice" because I am in the same age group as OP, thus it works for me and might work for him. I think you have to be a bit reckless and radical at this age to really get the most out of it, but do understand the importance of standard, traditional training. This is why I highly suggest starting very barebones at a nearly boring pace and complexity before you attempt to start pushing your limits and stepping a bit above your level.

Just always push what you can do, don't just stagnate doing simple drills with acceptable quality all day, try to strive for better.

Perhaps it works for me, because I have a period of being utter crap, then suddenly it clicks and I can suddenly do whatever I was practicing. If OP feels this is so for him, then at least try my advice.

 

[NextLevel]

I would also love to post footage, but I simply can't. I don't even really play right now, apart from some friendly games on our school's table, because the people there are actually half decent these days. I can at least train my touch play against them.

Once my living condition is more stable and I have a regular club, which is in a few years the most, I will definitely post footage perhaps everyday.

I am giving "dangerous advice" because I am in the same age group as OP, thus it works for me and might work for him. I think you have to be a bit reckless and radical at this age to really get the most out of it, but do understand the importance of standard, traditional training. This is why I highly suggest starting very barebones at a nearly boring pace and complexity before you attempt to start pushing your limits and stepping a bit above your level.

Just always push what you can do, don't just stagnate doing simple drills with acceptable quality all day, try to strive for better.

Perhaps it works for me, because I have a period of being utter crap, then suddenly it clicks and I can suddenly do whatever I was practicing. If OP feels this is so for him, then at least try my advice.

Have you ever coached someone to make him or her a better player? Just curious.

Over time, I think posting on this site and the discussions you will have will help you appreciate the mental side of table tennis more. Your posts don't seem to see this, maybe because you are young. There is some good advice but it can be easily misinterpreted and it helps me understand why you don't see the value in slow spin.

 

[Archosaurus]

Have you ever coached someone to make him or her a better player? Just curious.

Over time, I think posting on this site and the discussions you will have will help you appreciate the mental side of table tennis more. Your posts don't seem to see this, maybe because you are young. There is some good advice but it can be easily misinterpreted and it helps me understand why you don't see the value in slow spin.

I've coached people in numerous things, including table tennis, but I haven't actually worked with anyone to improve their game. So yes and no. More towards no, you can consider me inexperienced as a coach.

I do appreciate the mental side of table tennis and that's how I mostly score my points, and I do value slow spin.

I just believe that my mental advice will be interpreted as mumbo jumbo due to my lack of proof ie: footage, and I value a heavy, fast ball as your standard stroke, compared to a slow spin as your standard stroke. Although, if you're masterful in producing heavy spin, very low and very slow balls that can't really be attacked, especially if there's a little level gap, then it's very viable. I do that sometimes, I just do not trust in it as much as I trust in my pace play.

It IS true that most players, especially as the level goes up in the amateur ranks, don't know how to play a very slow, very spinny game and crumble when someone throws it at them.

 

[NextLevel]

I've coached people in numerous things, including table tennis, but I haven't actually worked with anyone to improve their game. So yes and no. More towards no, you can consider me inexperienced as a coach.

I do appreciate the mental side of table tennis and that's how I mostly score my points, and I do value slow spin.

I just believe that my mental advice will be interpreted as mumbo jumbo due to my lack of proof ie: footage, and I value a heavy, fast ball as your standard stroke, compared to a slow spin as your standard stroke. Although, if you're masterful in producing heavy spin, very low and very slow balls that can't really be attacked, especially if there's a little level gap, then it's very viable. I do that sometimes, I just do not trust in it as much as I trust in my pace play.

It IS true that most players, especially as the level goes up in the amateur ranks, don't know how to play a very slow, very spinny game and crumble when someone throws it at them.

Exactly. So take it from someone who does that when someone tells you he has only played for 13 months and is playing as well as DrPaco is, the first thing you do is appreciate how well they play. Because most people were not playing that well after 13 months.

Hitting the ball harder in matches relies upon technical practice, ball timing and play reading skills that build up with experience. You don't get play reading skills in 13 months. You can suggest some technical improvement to develop racket head speed or identify the plays he is missing. You can ask him to swing harder at the ball more consistently but he needs to learn to do it against people in scenarios where he can read the ball and make the appropriate play. Usually, the recommendation is to play lower rated players or do more drills.

The reason why we ask people to do spin over pace is not for the sake of spin all the time. We do it so that they have consistency which they can build upon by varying the spin to speed ratio of their shots based on how early or late they are to the ball. It also allows them to play at a pace where they learn to read the ball far better. Then when they are on time, they can play faster. Playing faster and harder is about being confident about your ball read. It is not as much about physical power as people think, though physical power plays an element in letting you generate more spin to control the ball when you use proper technique, thereby magnifying your margin.

If one is training everyday as a kid, this doesn't matter - you will get good anyway. But if one is trying to get good as an older person or training sporadically, you have to explain to them why they are missing so they can understand that it is okay to miss because the brain uses the errors to read the ball properly once the technique is correct.

 

[Archosaurus]

Well, OP is surely far better than I was 13 months in. I did not have any actual understanding of the game to train myself with, nor did I have a coach or any resources, either, so it's just natural.

I haven't been playing terribly long myself, only about a year and half, but that is still half a year of a gap to OP's experience, even if my early experiences weren't very productive and I didn't take it too seriously. That is also why I advised OP to take a full half year to train himself, not just a few weeks, expecting him to suddenly reach my level when I tell him what he has to do.

I think in half a year OP will be better than what I currently am if he really puts himself to it. I've never claimed I'm absolutely amazing, but what I do have is solid and well drilled.

I was going to comment on OP's lack of a real backhand (Didn't see one at least) but then I remembered that 13 months in, my backhand was essentially just a block. Sure, it's a solid loop now, but we do need to remember that there's limits to what you can achieve in what time.
Thus I didn't even mention anything about his backhand: it will develop in time. I think we're both similar players, with perhaps some "late talent" in being able to become somewhat decent in a fast time, so I don't doubt it. If I can manage it, he can.

Just keep in mind that if people of our experience level start questioning veteran players, we're not doing it out of disrespect. We're just trying to find out your bases for your claims, so we can see the game as you do.

I'd also have to +1 the point about appreciating OP's level compared to his experience. He's very little away from becoming quite solid and if he doesn't stagnate, he'll achieve it faster than I will: and I'm already at least half a year ahead of schedule!


Also, +1 to OP for putting himself out there. I'll really have to find a way to get myself out there playing against some decent players, but there isn't even a single club around here right now.

 

[NextLevel]

Well, OP is surely far better than I was 13 months in. I did not have any actual understanding of the game to train myself with, nor did I have a coach or any resources, either, so it's just natural.

I haven't been playing terribly long myself, only about a year and half, but that is still half a year of a gap to OP's experience, even if my early experiences weren't very productive and I didn't take it too seriously. That is also why I advised OP to take a full half year to train himself, not just a few weeks, expecting him to suddenly reach my level when I tell him what he has to do.

I think in half a year OP will be better than what I currently am if he really puts himself to it. I've never claimed I'm absolutely amazing, but what I do have is solid and well drilled.

I was going to comment on OP's lack of a real backhand (Didn't see one at least) but then I remembered that 13 months in, my backhand was essentially just a block. Sure, it's a solid loop now, but we do need to remember that there's limits to what you can achieve in what time.
Thus I didn't even mention anything about his backhand: it will develop in time. I think we're both similar players, with perhaps some "late talent" in being able to become somewhat decent in a fast time, so I don't doubt it. If I can manage it, he can.

Just keep in mind that if people of our experience level start questioning veteran players, we're not doing it out of disrespect. We're just trying to find out your bases for your claims, so we can see the game as you do.

I'd also have to +1 the point about appreciating OP's level compared to his experience. He's very little away from becoming quite solid and if he doesn't stagnate, he'll achieve it faster than I will: and I'm already at least half a year ahead of schedule!


Also, +1 to OP for putting himself out there. I'll really have to find a way to get myself out there playing against some decent players, but there isn't even a single club around here right now.

Now I am even more interested in that videotape of your play.

Archosaurus, take it from me that you are very intelligent, but most good players in table tennis did not get good by understanding what they do, they got good by drilling as children. As a good friend likes to say, if you ask a high level player something technical, most of them will just shadow their movement and report what they think.

So what I will tell you is this - as much as you can, defer to higher rated players not because you think they are right, but because you appreciate how difficult the questions you are asking them are. Their opinions have value, but if you really want a technical answer, look for the high level coaches. Those are the guys whose job it is to make players better so they try to teach. Not just the ones who drill but the ones who prescribe solutions when your drills are not producing the right results.

 

[DoctorPaco]

I was going to comment on OP's lack of a real backhand (Didn't see one at least) but then I remembered that 13 months in, my backhand was essentially just a block. Sure, it's a solid loop now, but we do need to remember that there's limits to what you can achieve in what time.
Thus I didn't even mention anything about his backhand: it will develop in time. I think we're both similar players, with perhaps some "late talent" in being able to become somewhat decent in a fast time, so I don't doubt it. If I can manage it, he can.

My backhand was actually what I've been working on since the turn of the year, but I'm not too confident in using it during a match because I switched my Yasaka mkV soft for a Skyline II Neo which is really reactive to incoming spin. My stroke has improve noticeably with the new rubber but I'm only still comfortable with drilling the bh.

Also, I was reviewing my footage of a previous match and my footwork was TERRIBLE so I was trying to counter that by using my fh more on the bh side I guess