All wood versus carbon layers

[Medax]

Hi all,

I've ready many many threads on this forum and most that I recall suggest that new players or those that are learning stick to all wood blades. Having seen some of the stats about the carbon blades I fully understood why as the carbon seemed to make them so quick, or at least that's what I thought.

I spoke to a local player who said about carbon having a larger sweet spot. As I still though carbon was going to be too quick, I stayed well alone.

However I recently came across the Paul Drinkhall all-round carbon blade that the stats seemed very similar to my joola wing medium, so this got me thinking.....?

So, I thought I would pose the questions to those better informed than myself and ask what is good about carbon blades and whether there is an all round carbon worth trying out.

Actually, can someone also tell me what is so good about a viscaria blade that makes those that own one so vocal and supportive about it ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So, here is some information.

The real issue with carbon is very simple. Carbon does some great things. Especially when it is weaved with something like Arylate which gives you some of the benefits of carbon and allowing some of the benefits of an all wood blade simultaneously. Viscaria is an ALC blade so it falls into that category of a blade that has many of the benefits of carbon and many of the benefits of an all wood blade at the same time.

Here is the biggest reason that a developing player who really wants to improve his/her technique would not want to use Carbon, even in a blade like the Stiga Allround Carbon or some other blade that is All, All+ or Off- speed rated: That speed rating is useful for a developing player. But adding the carbon is usually not: here is the reason:

Carbon deadens certain vibrations that make it harder to feel the ball while the ball is on the blade face.

This is the single biggest reason why an all wood blade in the All, All+ or Off- speed rating would be better for someone developing technique. However, there are several others that I will add after I explain this one.

The single most important aspect of developing technique is developing the ability to generate more spin; More Spin; MORE SPIN. you are truthfully not done with this process until you can generate MASSIVE spin: until you are close to semi-pro level.

The dual most important aspects of developing the technique for more spin are touch and feeling. They are two parts of ONE equation. The ability to feel and touch the ball well are developed side by side. It really has to do with how you use your hand on the racket, how you touch the ball, and what you do with how you touch the ball.

By deadening vibrations carbon blocks certain vibrations that you feel in your hand AND RETARDS (slows) THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING BETTER TOUCH AND FEEL.

The dampening of vibration is also part of why carbon creates a larger sweet spot. Here is what LARGER SWEET SPOT actually means. With a carbon blade, if your contact is BAD, it still feels good. In fact good contact and bad contact will feel almost the same.

For a developing player who does not know the difference between good contact and bad contact A CARBON BLADE WILL NOT PROVIDE FEEDBACK THAT HELPS YOUR SYSTEM LEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

With an all wood blade, good contact will feel really good. REALLY GOOD. And bad contact, when you make it, you will know you messed up because IT WILL FEEL BAD IN YOUR HAND and you will see your shot was bad too.

The interesting thing about this is, on a sub-cortical level (that means brain and neural feedback that is not conscious) on a sub-cortical level your nervous system will process the difference between good contact and bad contact and the ability to develop precise, good contact WILL improve with an all wood blade. This will not happen with a carbon blade with less vibration and a "larger sweetspot" (read: more room for making errors, bad shots, and bad contact).

So, with an all wood blade that is 5 plies, has decent flex, good dwell time, and an ability to help you feel the ball better. Usually the blades with a softer top ply like Limba are better for developing more spin and better technique. All Hinoki 5 plies that are All+Off- would be great as well.

The flex also helps you spin the ball more. Carbon also reduces flex.

So, what are carbon blades actually good for?????

Not for learning technique. But once your technique is really solid and your spin and shot quality is somewhere near a semi-pro level, then a carbon blade gives you more speed with less effort. A larger sweet spot so that if your contact is slightly off the shot will still work. And a lighter blade with more pace than you could get from an all wood blade without making it too stiff, heavy and hard.

And, by the way, when someone does have semi-pro level technique, they will be able to feel the difference between good and bad contact with a carbon blade because they have developed their technique to that extent.

Now, if you add Arylate to the equation like the Carbon+Arylate weave of an ALC blade like a Viscaria, a TB ALC or a ZJK ALC, then you add some of the spin capabilities of an all wood blade because of the softness of the Arylate. Arylate is a soft plastic that adds dwell time and the ability to spin the ball to the carbon's speed.

So, if your technique is at that level, this kind of blade is very good for balancing extra speed, keeping the spin and not making the blade too heavy.

Hope that answers your questions.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[ttmonster]

I think this is one helluva post Carl !! Super like !

So, here is some information.

The real issue with carbon is very simple. Carbon does some great things. Especially when it is weaved with something like Arylate which gives you some of the benefits of carbon and allowing some of the benefits of an all wood blade simultaneously. Viscaria is an ALC blade so it falls into that category of a blade that has many of the benefits of carbon and many of the benefits of an all wood blade at the same time.

Here is the biggest reason that a developing player who really wants to improve his/her technique would not want to use Carbon, even in a blade like the Stiga Allround Carbon or some other blade that is All, All+ or Off- speed rated: That speed rating is useful for a developing player. But adding the carbon is usually not: here is the reason:

Carbon deadens certain vibrations that make it harder to feel the ball while the ball is on the blade face.

This is the single biggest reason why an all wood blade in the All, All+ or Off- speed rating would be better for someone developing technique. However, there are several others that I will add after I explain this one.

The single most important aspect of developing technique is developing the ability to generate more spin; More Spin; MORE SPIN. you are truthfully not done with this process until you can generate MASSIVE spin: until you are close to semi-pro level.

The dual most important aspects of developing the technique for more spin are touch and feeling. They are two parts of ONE equation. The ability to feel and touch the ball well are developed side by side. It really has to do with how you use your hand on the racket, how you touch the ball, and what you do with how you touch the ball.

By deadening vibrations carbon blocks certain vibrations that you feel in your hand AND RETARDS (slows) THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING BETTER TOUCH AND FEEL.

The dampening of vibration is also part of why carbon creates a larger sweet spot. Here is what LARGER SWEET SPOT actually means. With a carbon blade, if your contact is BAD, it still feels good. In fact good contact and bad contact will feel almost the same.

For a developing player who does not know the difference between good contact and bad contact A CARBON BLADE WILL NOT PROVIDE FEEDBACK THAT HELPS YOUR SYSTEM LEARN THE DIFFERENCE.

With an all wood blade, good contact will feel really good. REALLY GOOD. And bad contact, when you make it, you will know you messed up because IT WILL FEEL BAD IN YOUR HAND and you will see your shot was bad too.

The interesting thing about this is, on a sub-cortical level (that means brain and neural feedback that is not conscious) on a sub-cortical level your nervous system will process the difference between good contact and bad contact and the ability to develop precise, good contact WILL improve with an all wood blade. This will not happen with a carbon blade with less vibration and a "larger sweetspot" (read: more room for making errors, bad shots, and bad contact).

So, with an all wood blade that is 5 plies, has decent flex, good dwell time, and an ability to help you feel the ball better. Usually the blades with a softer top ply like Limba are better for developing more spin and better technique. All Hinoki 5 plies that are All+Off- would be great as well.

The flex also helps you spin the ball more. Carbon also reduces flex.

So, what are carbon blades actually good for?????

Not for learning technique. But once your technique is really solid and your spin and shot quality is somewhere near a semi-pro level, then a carbon blade gives you more speed with less effort. A larger sweet spot so that if your contact is slightly off the shot will still work. And a lighter blade with more pace than you could get from an all wood blade without making it too stiff, heavy and hard.

And, by the way, when someone does have semi-pro level technique, they will be able to feel the difference between good and bad contact with a carbon blade because they have developed their technique to that extent.

Now, if you add Arylate to the equation like the Carbon+Arylate weave of an ALC blade like a Viscaria, a TB ALC or a ZJK ALC, then you add some of the spin capabilities of an all wood blade because of the softness of the Arylate. Arylate is a soft plastic that adds dwell time and the ability to spin the ball to the carbon's speed.

So, if your technique is at that level, this kind of blade is very good for balancing extra speed, keeping the spin and not making the blade too heavy.

Hope that answers your questions.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[phillypong]

Carbon deadens certain vibrations that make it harder to feel the ball while the ball is on the blade face.

Is there any evidence for this at all ? I mean would 2 very thin layers of carbon dampen vibrations in a way it would be possible for a human to feel this effect ?

By deadening vibrations carbon blocks certain vibrations that you feel in your hand AND RETARDS (slows) THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING BETTER TOUCH AND FEEL.

Is there any evidence for this statement , because if feeling vibrations would be very important why would top players like Samsonov or Aruna play with (sometimes a lot ) a sort of tape around the blade handle ?

Wouldnt everybody at amateur level be best then with a VERY vibrating kind of blade ?

 

[BeGo]

Carbon deadens certain vibrations that make it harder to feel the ball while the ball is on the blade face.

Is there any evidence for this at all ? I mean would 2 very thin layers of carbon dampen vibrations in a way it would be possible for a human to feel this effect ?

By deadening vibrations carbon blocks certain vibrations that you feel in your hand AND RETARDS (slows) THE PROCESS OF DEVELOPING BETTER TOUCH AND FEEL.

Is there any evidence for this statement , because if feeling vibrations would be very important why would top players like Samsonov or Aruna play with (sometimes a lot ) a sort of tape around the blade handle ?

Wouldnt everybody at amateur level be best then with a VERY vibrating kind of blade ?

Carl right, but,

He use layman term that sadly can be confusing for people with physics background. This is a case of language mistakes, not Carl fault.

- 1st, what player feel on blade upon ball impact is not vibration frequency, but amplitude.
- we can easily hear the vibration freqs as tones, so, blade with high freqs of vibration tend to give high pitched "dink" sound, as opposed to lower "donk" sound
- wood blade vibrate "heavier" (bigger amplitude) at lower freqs compared to carbon blade. Carbon blade actually vibrate a lot more than wood blade, but we cant feel it, hence Carl word "deadening", cause the amplitude is lower. Remember 1st rule







Sent from my T1X Plus using Tapatalk

 

[Archosaurus]

philly, race car drivers can feel minute details in the road and the flex and slip of the tires without even being in direct contact with the manipulating piece, instead touching them through gloves, a steering wheel, a power steering system hooked to a steering system that purposely deadens forces near the limit in most cars, with tires that don't offer that much feeling in the first place. They know if they are driving a mm too much to the right or left from the ideal line and slipping a bit less or a bit too much, and feeling how much the tire is working and how much it is flexed. A lot of this comes from the eyes, some of this from the body's feeling, and some of it from the fingers and palms of their hands.

Table tennis players only need to feel a ball through direct contact with the bat that is hitting it. Why would humans not feel contact with different bat materials?


There's a lot of physics that goes into it, but none of it matters. What matters is that you understand the feeling for yourself. I'm still working on that myself, so don't get too discouraged if you can't seemingly feel any differences in contact or blade material.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl right, but,

He use layman term that sadly can be confusing for people with physics background. This is a case of language mistakes, not Carl fault.

- 1st, what player feel on blade upon ball impact is not vibration frequency, but amplitude.
- we can easily hear the vibration freqs as tones, so, blade with high freqs of vibration tend to give high pitched "dink" sound, as opposed to lower "donk" sound
- wood blade vibrate "heavier" (bigger amplitude) at lower freqs compared to carbon blade. Carbon blade actually vibrate a lot more than wood blade, but we cant feel it, hence Carl word "deadening", cause the amplitude is lower. Remember 1st rule

Nice explanation. I am no physicist. But I know that a lot of times with a carbon blade it makes bad contact feel good and you get a better shot than you should with with contact that is not so good. And for someone who does not yet know the difference between better contact and not as good contact, they end up not being able to distinguish between the two with a good carbon blade.

Whereas, what gets called a smaller sweet spot has to do with the fact that if your contact is not so good, on a wood blade you think, "wow that felt terrible, that was bad contact," and you don't like how it felt; and the shot you get from it is not as good as it would be with good contact or with a carbon blade.

By getting that extra feedback from the wood blade that makes bad contact feel bad, on a sub cortical level, you system adjusts and it actually helps you refine and improve your contact.

The carbon blade makes all of that feel good and gives you a better overall shot when you mess up a little and then your nervous system does not get feedback that tells you you did something a little bit wrong.

And the think is, the better shot the carbon allows with worse contact is still nowhere near as good as good contact. So you don't realize the shot might be better than it should be but is nowhere near as good as it could be.

 

[Archosaurus]

Of course now we get to this question: What does good contact feel like? Are there differences in what good contact feels like with different blades, glues, rubbers and balls?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Of course now we get to this question: What does good contact feel like? Are there differences in what good contact feels like with different blades, glues, rubbers and balls?

As you get better, the nice, all wood blade that you have, Archo, will help you feel the difference.

Every so often, you slightly mishit a ball and the contact is just a little off, that is bad contact. When you get better contact, it feels better. I know, it sounds dumb and obvious. That is is sort of it.

The caveat about good contact, the reason I said, sort of, is that as you get better, your contact gets better. And so there is a sliding scale of good for what good contact is. The better your contact, the better it feels with a wood blade that provides more feedback and helps you feel the ball more.

The process of refining contact, it keeps on developing. What I though was good contact a year ago, isn't as good as what I feel as good contact today. My precision has increased decently on how I brush and how much I get the ball to sink into the sponge while I use the topsheet to grab and wrap around the ball. It is pretty cool what the deformation of the sponge and topsheet feel like while you are looping.

 

[MildSeven]

It's mostly just a feel thing. You can make a racket of any speed with any combination of materials. I've been playing since the mid 90's and my first real racket had synthetic fibers, so now any time I hit with an all-wood blade it just feels like too much vibration, particularly when I'm hitting hard. People who developed on all wood blades probably experience the reverse.

I used a Viscaria through much of the early 2000's up until the glue ban. It's just a very good all around racket. However they're a dime a dozen these days. I find that looking at the construction of the blade gives me a better idea of how it will feel and perform instead of looking at the manufacturers numbers. Quite frankly, the market is flooded these days with what we call "5+2" under 6mm. When you begin to look at them you notice they're all just subtle variations on one another. There's nothing magical about Viscaria that can't be explained by how its built, and quite frankly the Timo Boll ALC and other koto wood thin 5+2's will deliver the same performance effectively. I would only obsess over it if I felt this kind of blade was definitely my thing and the subtle differences were important enough for me to achieve the perfect racket. For most of us, differences in construction and thickness will matter a lot more. I wouldn't worry about it too much.