Here at SD paddle palace open

[TensorBackhand]

Look who i bumped into

 

[TensorBackhand]

I played 1 for fun game with Victor and lost 9-11. Let me tell you his serves are insane. I pretty much missed every one recieve.

I still dont even know what spin is on it

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I played 1 for fun game with Victor and lost 9-11. Let me tell you his serves are insane. I pretty much missed every one recieve.

I still dont even know what spin is on it

wow,
so you lost 11 point in serves
and victor lost all your serves too by the look of it?

 

[TensorBackhand]

wow,
so you lost 11 point in serves
and victor lost all your serves too by the look of it?

I lost most of my receiving points, and I won the majority of serving points.

Yes that is how math works. He did 10 serves and I did 10 serves. Maybe he won 8 of his 10 serves and won 3 of his receives.

I won 2 receive points and basically whiffed or badly missed 8 more receives. Then i won 7 points on my serve.

 

[TensorBackhand]

All in all, it was a pretty interesting day for me. It was my first time going to an actual TT event. I usually just practice in a private setting with a partner.

There were lots of different clubs that showed up. I saw LATT club, OC TT club, Grace Lin TT club, 888 club, ICC club, ASLT club, etc. Also a few more that I can't remember.

Actually Grace Lin club was the one that impressed me the most. They had quite a few really good junior players who stylistically played very well. The coach was giving really sound and sensible advice too.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Did you ask VMoroga why he stop posting at TTD?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I lost most of my receiving points, and I won the majority of serving points.

Yes that is how math works. He did 10 serves and I did 10 serves. Maybe he won 8 of his 10 serves and won 3 of his receives.

I won 2 receive points and basically whiffed or badly missed 8 more receives. Then i won 7 points on my serve.

I also ran into Victor
He is a nice guy, I'm sure he isn't that type that would beat players 11-3
I heard you have a lot of paddles with you, how many did you use on that day?

 

[TensorBackhand]

I also ran into Victor
He is a nice guy, I'm sure he isn't that type that would beat players 11-3
I heard you have a lot of paddles with you, how many did you use on that day?

I carried 8 with me. Maybe i used 2 or 3.

He missed some easy shots, if we played more games he would find his rhythm and play better. Maybe 11-9, 11-7, 11-5 as he gets more used to my rhythm.

But i think I would eventually adjust to his difficult serve as well and find some kind of rhythm as well. I did score a few good loops on him too.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I also ran into Victor
He is a nice guy, I'm sure he isn't that type that would beat players 11-3
I heard you have a lot of paddles with you, how many did you use on that day?

I dont think he would beat me 11-3 very often. So, i dont know what your comment is trying to suggest. I watched some video of our little play. He had an actual tournament match coming up, so it wasnt a serious training match of anything. Just a fun quick warm up game. I hadn't even changed my shoes.

My sense from playing him is that he is about 2 full stages better than me. I mean that makes sense if he is 2300 and I am about 1900. My sense is that if we played 10 matches I would lose 10, but i might be lucky to steal a few games here and there.

Having said that, just playing these past 3 years with no coach or real training, I think my general level is quite good.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I dont think he would beat me 11-3 very often. So, i dont know what your comment is trying to suggest. I watched some video of our little play. He had an actual tournament match coming up, so it wasnt a serious training match of anything. Just a fun quick warm up game. I hadn't even changed my shoes.

My sense from playing him is that he is about 2 full stages better than me. I mean that makes sense if he is 2300 and I am about 1900. My sense is that if we played 10 matches I would lose 10, but i might be lucky to steal a few games here and there.

Having said that, just playing these past 3 years with no coach or real training, I think my general level is quite good.

oh, don't take it the wrong way
I'm just saying, even I, won't play too serious some games. Especially if I'm tired or in between matches and won't want to move, or can't move any more (for me it is more the latter lol)
but that doesn't mean that is my level.

but if you feel you are that level, then great. continue pushing to that target.
But if money is on the cards, I'm betting Victor for the win.
he is able to take on 2400 players too, so there is a gap.
But if you feel you are 80% of him, then get to the 2000~2200 mark asap!

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I carried 8 with me. Maybe i used 2 or 3.

Damn, how big of a bag did you bring?
I feel 2 to 3 is a bit much for me, and when I do sampling that is like 4 to 5 and my bag is full!!

so, how do you pick which to use and which not?
and i assume all 8 are different?

 

[TensorBackhand]

Damn, how big of a bag did you bring?
I feel 2 to 3 is a bit much for me, and when I do sampling that is like 4 to 5 and my bag is full!!

so, how do you pick which to use and which not?
and i assume all 8 are different?

I usually pick the racket that I feel I "understand" least well. I want to play with a setup until I understand how to use it well. So it's often times a newer setup or a cheaper setup that I feel I didn't play to its potential yet. Against victor, I thought I needed extra grip: so I picked a setup that I never used before, but it was Volant Phoenix on fh and dragon grip on bh.

And it's just a regular backpack that I carry with 8 rackets, a pair of shoes, a bottle of water, and a handtowel.

 

[TensorBackhand]

oh, don't take it the wrong way
I'm just saying, even I, won't play too serious some games. Especially if I'm tired or in between matches and won't want to move, or can't move any more (for me it is more the latter lol)
but that doesn't mean that is my level.

but if you feel you are that level, then great. continue pushing to that target.
But if money is on the cards, I'm betting Victor for the win.
he is able to take on 2400 players too, so there is a gap.
But if you feel you are 80% of him, then get to the 2000~2200 mark asap!

Of course you should bet on Victor. I said he is 2 full stages better than me and he would probably win 10 out of 10 matches. I'm not at a level to compete to win matches against him. However, I am at a high enough level to make for genuinely competitive rallies against him. So if we played 100 points, I'd probably lose 65 and I would never win a match. But a lot of those points would make for fairly strategic and interesting rallies. Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Novak Djokovic points won percentage in their career is only 54%. They only win a few extra points against his opponents, but over the course of a match it almost always guarantees a win. I don't know Ma Long's point win percentage, but I'm guessing it might be pretty similar. I think it's hard to win 60% or more points against opponents no matter how much better you are.

I didn't say I'm 2200, so I dunno where you pulled that from. I said I'm about 1900, I often compete well with 1950 and 2000 players in our local league.

But again, I don't have anything to prove. I'm just a hobby player playing for fun. And just in my personal opinion, I honestly think I'm playing at a really competent level for somebody with no coaching or training. I often play young guys who grew up in Stellan's club and have been training for many years. Sometimes they win, sometimes I win, but I don't even feel like they're better than me with all their coaching. Some of those guys are a stage better (2000-2100), but just a single stage better after all that training? I'm happy where I am and I just want to work on 1 thing at a time. Right now, I want to get better at my long ball receive.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Another thing is I usually feel my shot quality is at the same level of a 2000-2100 player. I feel where I fall is generally around game-intelligence. I often times don't understand many of the nuances of how to read spin, or how to receive serve, or how to handle tricky balls or tricky lengths.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So if we played 100 points, I'd probably lose 65

well this is 11-7

I didn't say I'm 2200, so I dunno where you pulled that from. I said I'm about 1900, I often compete well with 1950 and 2000 players in our local league.

Then for 11-7, I feel you are not 1900, but would be 2200 as a bare min. So unless you feel 11-7 is a 1900 vs 2300~2400?
if you are 11-3, then 1900 sounds about fair. imo.

maybe we should take you out of the equation and just chat about rating and point expectation.
so you don't take it too personal!

one can't be 1900 and have such a high point win ratio to a 2300~2400 player for example.
unless the 2300~2400 plays 2000 to match them (which isn't impossible too)

I have a 2450 player here and a 2000~2100 player
I am very confident the 2450 can win 11-1 or I will make him run 1km for every point lost extra to that 1 point per game. That is how confident I understand the 2 players gap. It is night and days apart.

So I think to really understand if both players are serious, there must be stakes on hand. Else you (back to you) should be in the 2100~2200 space and you are underrated.

so nothing against you, or your equipment or your shot quality, but just to understand how USATT rating works in terms of playing level and expectations.

 

[TensorBackhand]

well this is 11-7


Then for 11-7, I feel you are not 1900, but would be 2200 as a bare min. So unless you feel 11-7 is a 1900 vs 2300~2400?
if you are 11-3, then 1900 sounds about fair. imo.

maybe we should take you out of the equation and just chat about rating and point expectation.
so you don't take it too personal!

one can't be 1900 and have such a high point win ratio to a 2300~2400 player for example.
unless the 2300~2400 plays 2000 to match them (which isn't impossible too)

I have a 2450 player here and a 2000~2100 player
I am very confident the 2450 can win 11-1 or I will make him run 1km for every point lost extra to that 1 point per game. That is how confident I understand the 2 players gap. It is night and days apart.

So I think to really understand if both players are serious, there must be stakes on hand. Else you (back to you) should be in the 2100~2200 space and you are underrated.

so nothing against you, or your equipment or your shot quality, but just to understand how USATT rating works in terms of playing level and expectations.

I dunno. I never counted my total career points so you could be right. I haven't seen your 2450 and 2100 player play each other. You might be right. I'd be willing to bet your 2450 player can't beat a 2100 player 11-1 at will. That's just my personal feeling, you maybe have seen him do this easily all the time.

In my estimate, I don't think a 2000 player could beat a 1700 player 11-1 or 11-3 often at all. I think it would usually be about 11-7. My opinion is that I would average around 7-11 against Victor on most games. Some games I would lose worse, and some games I might manage to steal a game. My opinion is that he is around 2300 and I'm around 1900 and he is about 2 "stages" better. My personal definition of stage is about 200 USATT rating points.

The fact of the matter is, he did not beat me 11-1 or 11-3. He beat me 11-9, but it was only 1 game where neither of us were used to each other. I don't think he was playing "serious", but he also wasn't toying around. He was going for his serves and 3rd ball loops and attacking my serves. I have the video. And I also scored with my fh loops and bh loops. 11-1 means he is winning 90%+ of points, and that was not the case. I think he would win 60 or 65% of points, but that is just a guess based on a short feeling out game.

Also, I'm not taking anything "personal". I just don't believe any player can win 90% of their points, even if they are 400 USATT rating better. I think winning 60% is already dominant.

 

[TensorBackhand]

Maybe a statistician can tell us the mathematical answer.

If you are winning 60% of points, what is the mathematical probability that you would lose a best of 7 match? My guess it would be less than 5%? Maybe even less than 1%?

I can also post this question in the mathematics reddit so some math PHD can give us the real answer. I'm quite curious myself.

 

[JJ Ng]

Why don't we say Victor is 2150 (which is true) and TensorBackhand is 1900? Good enough for me

I think what Tony is trying to do is to figure out how the USATT ratings compared the actual playing level/style. I think when you get to higher levels, each 50 points or each 100 points is a big jump. So to say Victor is 2150 and TensorBackhand is 1900, that is correct. Victor is two levels above.

By the way, to be able to achieve 1900 level as an adult player, after having played 3 years without coaching is very very impressive!!!

 

[TensorBackhand]

Why don't we say Victor is 2150 (which is true) and TensorBackhand is 1900? Good enough for me

I think what Tony is trying to do is to figure out how the USATT ratings compared the actual playing level/style. I think when you get to higher levels, each 50 points or each 100 points is a big jump. So to say Victor is 2150 and TensorBackhand is 1900, that is correct. Victor is two levels above.

By the way, to be able to achieve 1900 level as an adult player, after having played 3 years without coaching is very very impressive!!!

Sounds reasonable to me. What's the problem then?
Even 2 levels above, I don't see him beating me or equal level opponent 11-1 or 11-3 often. I don't see anybody winning 80 or 90% of match points. I think even winning 60% is utterly dominant.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Sounds reasonable to me. What's the problem then?

There is no problem, hence I said, don't take it personal.

Even 2 levels above, I don't see him beating me or equal level opponent 11-1 or 11-3 often. I don't see anybody winning 80 or 90% of match points. I think even winning 60% is utterly dominant.

well, Victor was busy in a tournament and between round robins and played a friendly with you.
It was far from competitive, since he was busy resting.
But never the less, Victor is about 2200 and has beaten 2450 players before.
weather 2100 to 1900, or 2200 to 1900, is a 200~300 gap

In the other thread, we were talking about gaps, ie 2600~2630 to 2660 is probably 3 different levels.
For 1900 to 2200, I think this is a 11-3to5 level, if you can get 7 to 8, you are probably not 1900 or Victor is not 2200.
11-7 is probably a 100 point different for the range of 1900~2300.

again, this is provided both are serious.

IE JPN players knocked out strong SA player 33-3
but then another JPN player only won 33-12
That doesn't mean the 2nd JPN player is weaker in level/rating, but rather, she gave a lot of mercy points away.
I know both SA players are 11-1 and anything more than 1 point is a bonus
Same thing about that 2000 player I know and that 2400 player I know. the 2400 needs to be so careless to allow 2000 to win any points. The gap is just too vast and anything more than 11-1, is either careless or mercy.

Just like few days ago I was with Cheng Hsien-Tzu
She is probably around 2600+ level
and she was training with a 15 year old, maybe 2350 level. (Taiwan U19 no 9, U17, no 4)
even at fix drill (spot), the 15 year old was late on many backhand blocks.
The level is just night and day