Short Pips both sides...

[ViperTableTennis]

Is there anyone that plays this style currently in the men's world rankings? Do we know who the best player in the world is at the moment currently utilising this style? Or is it such an obscure style that there isn't an objective world's best when it comes to the men's game?

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

No one current comes to mind. The lack of spin on serves and short game from both sided pips seems to provide a very difficult hurdle to overcome especially when pros have such an easy time nowadays attacking short and midlength balls already. The only two players I can even think of in somewhat recent history are Johnny Huang for mens and Miao Miao on the womens side

 

[nicedream]

This guy ranked 84 in Sweden

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

amateur players maybe
no pro will do that in mens.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

No one current comes to mind. The lack of spin on serves and short game from both sided pips seems to provide a very difficult hurdle to overcome especially when pros have such an easy time nowadays attacking short and midlength balls already. The only two players I can even think of in somewhat recent history are Johnny Huang for mens and Miao Miao on the womens side

I take those points onboard, but I can't help think that it could be a somewhat viable style if more people tried it. Modern SP's can be pretty spinny, and with the plastic ball its a bit less emphasis on spin anyway. I reckon it would be possible to get a few double-sided SP players into the world top 100 if only a few more people would seriously train at it. I think it would be a more viable style for them modern game than chopping with LP's - and we still have a small number of those in the top 100.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

No one current comes to mind. The lack of spin on serves and short game from both sided pips seems to provide a very difficult hurdle to overcome especially when pros have such an easy time nowadays attacking short and midlength balls already. The only two players I can even think of in somewhat recent history are Johnny Huang for mens and Miao Miao on the womens side

There was a Swedish youngster called Jonathon Thimon (I think that's the right spelling). He was quite highly ranked as a teenager but I'm not sure what happened to him. He'd be about 24-25 years old now so still young enough to be playing at a high level if he's still active.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I take those points onboard, but I can't help think that it could be a somewhat viable style if more people tried it. Modern SP's can be pretty spinny, and with the plastic ball its a bit less emphasis on spin anyway. I reckon it would be possible to get a few double-sided SP players into the world top 100 if only a few more people would seriously train at it. I think it would be a more viable style for them modern game than chopping with LP's - and we still have a small number of those in the top 100.

how many single sided SP player has made it viable in the pro circuit? or say top 100 as you put it.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

how many single sided SP player has made it viable in the pro circuit? or say top 100 as you put it.

The only one I can think of is Falck. But like I said in relation to double SP's, I reckon it would be possible to get a few more into the world top 100 if only a few more people would seriously train at it.

You are correct to highlight that there are virtually none at the top level at the moment, but that is almost certainly going to be partly because so few people are training to play in that way, rather than it being wholly due to the style of play being inherently inferior.

The same logic applies to defender's, of course; there are hardly any defenders in the men's top 100, but they are probably NOT under-represented relative to the number of young up-and-coming players that actually train in that style. In fact, it could even be the case that defenders are over-represented in the top 100 relative to the number of people training in that way in comparison to the attacking style. I don't think there's any suggestion that that is the case, but if it were the case it would then be true to say that in some sense the defensive style was actually superior.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The only one I can think of is Falck. But like I said in relation to double SP's, I reckon it would be possible to get a few more into the world top 100 if only a few more people would seriously train at it.

I can tell you that not many sp 1 side make it in the juniors space.
So they will filter out and go bye bye
Falck is the only one that survived.

You are correct to highlight that there are virtually none at the top level at the moment, but that is almost certainly going to be partly because so few people are training to play in that way, rather than it being wholly due to the style of play being inherently inferior.

maybe some start, but the style has limitations, so they are out.
so until you can prove that the style is not inherently inferior, I do think it is.

there are so old school players that are cpen sp that can still compete in that space, but they are old and when young where top 20 levels.

The same logic applies to defender's, of course; there are hardly any defenders in the men's top 100, but they are probably NOT under-represented relative to the number of young up-and-coming players that actually train in that style.

again, same with SP which was good with 38mm days
defender was better in 38mm days
40+ the air drag is too much, spin reduce, so defender threat is not the same. Same as 1 sided SP.
Same with JPen that was good with 38mm, speed glue, hidden serve.
game evolve, style needs to evolve too.

In fact, it could even be the case that defenders are over-represented in the top 100 relative to the number of people training in that way in comparison to the attacking style. I don't think there's any suggestion that that is the case, but if it were the case it would then be true to say that in some sense the defensive style was actually superior.

top 100 means players that are not filtered out, but filtered up.

End of the day, in grass root, you have a lot different styles. I have seem SP with sponge one side, and SP with OX other side, both wing attack, but again, amateur level at best.
he will not be able to go into top spin offensive game with double inverted, it is too technically difficult to do it with 1 side, yet alone both

I hope you understand the history of the game over the past 30 years, to understand what I am saying.

PS, prior to the 70s, it was SP both sides. I don't think this style will take over after 6 decades of it being an outdated style

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I can tell you that not many sp 1 side make it in the juniors space.
So they will filter out and go bye bye
Falck is the only one that survived.

But is that because its an inferior style, or simply because there are hardly any players adopting that style to begin with? Let's say for arguments sake that you have one 1-sided pips player for every 50 double-inverted players, then you'd expect hardly any of the 1 sided pips players to make it relative to the number of double-inverted players

maybe some start, but the style has limitations, so they are out.
so until you can prove that the style is not inherently inferior, I do think it is.

But where's your evidence that it is an inferior style to justify your belief that it is an inferior style? I'm not saying double SP isn't inferior...I have an open-mind because there's no conclusive data either way.

End of the day, in grass root, you have a lot different styles. I have seem SP with sponge one side, and SP with OX other side, both wing attack, but again, amateur level at best.
he will not be able to go into top spin offensive game with double inverted, it is too technically difficult to do it with 1 side, yet alone both

I don't really agree with that. In grass roots table tennis when it comes to the training of juniors, my experience is that the vast majority are coached to a double-inverted attacking/looping style of play. You only get lots of different styles at the local league level when veteran players are thrown into the mix...but these are not the players that have any hope of playing professionally; they're the "old guys" that are already over the hill.

I hope you understand the history of the game over the past 30 years, to understand what I am saying.

PS, prior to the 70s, it was SP both sides. I don't think this style will take over after 6 decades of it being an outdated style

What you're talking about here seems to be (at least in part) about what is "fashionable" and what went out of fashion. I'm not interested so much in what's fashionable; I'm talking more in terms of whether the style of play could be successful if more people were seriously coached in it, such that the style was given a fair chance of success relative to the chances given to the double-inverted style.

 

[ejprinz]

To answer your question you can watch any game between Mima Ito and a top-10 double inverted opponent. The issue with short pips in general is that less spin is generated (even with "spin-pips"), so the curve of the ball is flatter and the probability of hitting the net is higher. Since the game in the top-10 level is decided by small percentages even backhand short pips are not viable. Also attacking on the backhand with flips is safer with inverted rubber. Mima Ito could play with Falck's forehand rubber but then the percentage would be even lower on the forehand.
I think if Mima Ito switched to double inverted (even a H3-Neo 39 degrees on the backhand) she would be a more dangerous player in the top-10.
Source: I've played short pips backhand for ~2 years and switched back to double inverted (not a crazy rubber, just Neottec Hinomi-M which is similar to the Sriver of my 1970's play, and also a little similar to my Yinhe Uranus Pro short pips).

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Two side short pips reminds me of a short story and I wish to share, enjoy!

Once upon a time a regular OB TT player went on a cruise ship for vacation. To maintain his porcelain white silky smooth pale skin, he avoid the sun as much as possible and hide along the corridors. In there, he sees table tennis table and joy and rapture arises.

He then approach a South East Asian looking receptionist and acquire a table tennis blade, looking forward for some exercise. The blade is non-branded, some cheap feeling wood thing probably made in some rural deep south sweat-shop with two pieces of short pimple out rubber on both side.

The OB player opponent is a sun baked pink skin shirtless hairy but balding dude with extra large girth holding a Foster can of beer. To be fair, both of them uses the same equipment and hence there is no advantage of one over the other with regards to equipment.

In the end, the sun baked pink skin shirtless hairy but balding dude with extra large girth holding a Foster can of beer won. The OB player was left with amazement. In hindsight, I realized so many things were wrong. The table swayed in accordance to the waves while the wind is too strong, however and the most important thing: the Tequila Sunrise were too many for Gozo the poor OB player to handle. That is why he lost.

NB: The above short story is inspired by true event.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

viper,
I think talking to you is very tiring.

game has evolve, stop trying to do 1970s stuff in 2025
the sport is different. "fashionable"??? you think the sport only change by fashionable and not the sport itself? lol

if you don't understand, then go understand table tennis first
if you were born only recently, I can understand you never experience and would not know of top world rank players with single SP or even double if we go back even further in history.

I know so many SP top 20 or top 50 players in their time and they all say, the game doesn't allow for SP any more.

now you asked a question. I answered with "pro" answer
but you want to come and debate with me
i have no time and no interest to debate with you, because your mind is set and is backed with absolute zero knowledge or experience of both sp and inverted development from beginner to elite pro.

Even if a pro was to come and say the same thing, your mind is set and you going to still pull the same response

 

[ViperTableTennis]

viper,
I think talking to you is very tiring.

game has evolve, stop trying to do 1970s stuff in 2025
the sport is different. "fashionable"??? you think the sport only change by fashionable and not the sport itself? lol

if you don't understand, then go understand table tennis first
if you were born only recently, I can understand you never experience and would not know of top world rank players with single SP or even double if we go back even further in history.

I know so many SP top 20 or top 50 players in their time and they all say, the game doesn't allow for SP any more.

now you asked a question. I answered with "pro" answer
but you want to come and debate with me
i have no time and no interest to debate with you, because your mind is set and is backed with absolute zero knowledge or experience of both sp and inverted development from beginner to elite pro.

Even if a pro was to come and say the same thing, your mind is set and you going to still pull the same response

Wow, no need for rudeness, Tony. I made a post and you responded...I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to then respond to your responses. I assumed that your willingness to engage with my post was an indication that you did in fact have the time and interest to discuss the topic! Please feel free to no longer engage with any of my posts if you find it so tiring to do so

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Wow, no need for rudeness, Tony. I made a post and you responded...I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to then respond to your responses. I assumed that your willingness to engage with my post was an indication that you did in fact have the time and interest to discuss the topic! Please feel free to no longer engage with any of my posts if you find it so tiring to do so

well, i gave my feedback, to your question
your rejected it all
so, that is rudeness if you didn't realize that.

you talk about conclusive data, how much data do you see?
I work with hundreds of players and indirectly see thousands.
my data is worth jackall to you, with how easy your reject them.

and my data includes that of active world top 100 players and formers too.

since you don't agree with my data, you are welcome to use your data to find an answer to suite your narrative.
good luck in finding such.

PS, if you a hobby player, start talking with reputable coaches from different countries. But don't be a smarty pants and go and challenge them like you trying to debate or challenge me.

 

[driversbeat]

You can look up Otilia Badescu from Romania. She's a WTTC singles bronze medalist.

IMO pips had the biggest disadvantage in the 40mm no speed glue era. Less spin with the large ball made it easier to flat hit, and even inverted players are playing with more forward motion instead of spin now so it's definitely viable even if it's not the best style.

Another advantage of pips is rhythm disruption though which you won't get much of with double-sided short pips. In modern times Kyoka Idesawa and Ayhika are the best. Slowing down the game with their backhand also gives them more opportunities to forehand flat kill.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

To answer your question you can watch any game between Mima Ito and a top-10 double inverted opponent. The issue with short pips in general is that less spin is generated (even with "spin-pips"), so the curve of the ball is flatter and the probability of hitting the net is higher. Since the game in the top-10 level is decided by small percentages even backhand short pips are not viable. Also attacking on the backhand with flips is safer with inverted rubber. Mima Ito could play with Falck's forehand rubber but then the percentage would be even lower on the forehand.
I think if Mima Ito switched to double inverted (even a H3-Neo 39 degrees on the backhand) she would be a more dangerous player in the top-10.
Source: I've played short pips backhand for ~2 years and switched back to double inverted (not a crazy rubber, just Neottec Hinomi-M which is similar to the Sriver of my 1970's play, and also a little similar to my Yinhe Uranus Pro short pips).

That's an argument to support the notion that the double inverted is a more effective style of play that using pimples...but its not really an argument to counter my hypothesis, which is that I think it would be possible to get a few double-sided SP players into the world top 100 if only a few more people would seriously train at it. Mima Ito is one sided pimples player that is comfortably inside the women's world top 100 ranking...so in what sense is she evidence that a male double-pimple player couldn't get into the world top 100?

 

[ViperTableTennis]

well, i gave my feedback, to your question
your rejected it all
so, that is rudeness if you didn't realize that.

you talk about conclusive data, how much data do you see?
I work with hundreds of players and indirectly see thousands.
my data is worth jackall to you, with how easy your reject them.

and my data includes that of active world top 100 players and formers too.

since you don't agree with my data, you are welcome to use your data to find an answer to suite your narrative.
good luck in finding such.

PS, if you a hobby player, start talking with reputable coaches from different countries. But don't be a smarty pants and go and challenge them like you trying to debate or challenge me.

I didn't reject everything you said, and anything I did reject I didn't do so in a rude way. I came back to you with responses that challenged/probed or asked you to substantiate what you said. If you find that rude then I think the issue is with you, not me. I have no "narrative" as you put it. All I have is a hypothesis that double-sided SP's might be viable at the elite level in the men's game if more players were seriously coached in that style. That is not me suggesting that it would be a more successful style than double-inverted; it's simply a feeling that such players might be able to "hold there own" at the top level in a similar way to which there are a few defenders/choppers that can hold their own in the top 100.

I'm no table tennis expert, but I am involved with elite level table tennis in the UK (my daughter is a national champion and part of the national squad). What I see at the elite junior level within the UK is that 99% of the coaching is based upon the double-inverted style of play. I don't see anyone testing the hypothesis of whether double SP's is viable because no one is seriously coaching juniors in that style. Now that might be because the style has no chance of success at the elite level, or it might simply be that the style is out of fashion and there literally aren't any coaches competent to coach in that style.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I didn't reject everything you said, and anything I did reject I didn't do so in a rude way. I came back to you with responses that challenged/probed or asked you to substantiate what you said. If you find that rude then I think the issue is with you, not me. I have no "narrative" as you put it. All I have is a hypothesis that double-sided SP's might be viable at the elite level in the men's game if more players were seriously coached in that style. That is not me suggesting that it would be a more successful style than double-inverted; it's simply a feeling that such players might be able to "hold there own" at the top level in a similar way to which there are a few defenders/choppers that can hold their own in the top 100.

I'm no table tennis expert, but I am involved with elite level table tennis in the UK (my daughter is a national champion and part of the national squad). What I see at the elite junior level within the UK is that 99% of the coaching is based upon the double-inverted style of play. I don't see anyone testing the hypothesis of whether double SP's is viable because no one is seriously coaching juniors in that style. Now that might be because the style has no chance of success at the elite level, or it might simply be that the style is out of fashion and there literally aren't any coaches competent to coach in that style.

change your daughter to double sp and hire the best sp coach and you can test the hypothesis.
UK is not really a good data, but the best women's player is a SP player lol, so I'm sure you can ask Tin-tin for recommendations on a SP coach and you can see if your daughter can survive in the double inverted space or not and from there, you would understand what technical limitation does it come with (well, you could see it from Tintin, Mima and Flack, but i'm sure you don't see it)

any ways, I have no interest to counter your arguments, as it is triggered from a wishful thinking and not experience or facts.

Imagine if Ma Lin comes and teach us to do a ghost serve and I come and challenge him and say, where is your data.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

change your daughter to double sp and hire the best sp coach and you an test the hypothesis.
UK is not really a good data, but the best women's player is a SP player lol, so I'm sure you can ask Tin-tin for recommendations on a SP coach and you can see if your daughter can survive in the double inverted space or not.

So you want me to change my DAUGHTER to double SP's to test my hypothesis that a double SP player might be able to get into the top 100 in the MEN'S game?

Think that one through...take all the time you need!