First Time Penholder: Help me out!

[xavi]

With curled fingers in the back, a subtlety is the difference between
a. resting the finger on the rubber
b. pinching the rubber with the tip of the finger (or finger nail).
Pinching the rubber yields more power and solve the problem of slippage.

Watch the first 1.5 minutes of:

Wow this video looks so good! anyone can translate the first 3 minutes?

 

[olive-nguyen]

Well, i missed a lot here eh?

As for question of TPB not having a cross over point, i understand that one of the tactics for placement is hitting the ball near the teable edge lines at the elbow. Ive seen how my shake handed friends have to react to it, and that odd looking backhand, usually weak, looks really awkward. Other than that maybe they will lean to one side to hit a forehand so close to the body it looks like “chicken wing”.

With tpb, the whole arm can pivot like a pendulum, hence there is no awkward point having to hold the bat at such an angle. And, using only one side means that there is no switching of rubber orientation, possibly speeding up reaction times for blocks (Ma Lin and Chiang Peng Lung on that list).

However, Felix almost always play every shot on his backhand with rpb, which is similar in mechanics with the shake hand system. Hence, there is a crossover point at the elbow and rpb itself has slightly less mobility compared to shake hand, with the awkward bend of the wrist.

The only person i can really say that still has an element of traditional penhold back hand with less of a crossover point is Dang Qiu. Now without Matsumoto or Kai Yoshida playing on the world stage, there isn’t any professional single sided penholders anymore, or those who primarily use only one side, like Ma Lin. Dang Qiu has pretty good forehand, and i can say in terms of proper forehand with the power that distinguishes a pen holder, Dang Qiu beats Felix, for now anyways. With Felix’s grip, it allows for a flexible wrist for playing pretty good rpb backhand, but i was wondering with that amount of curled and stacked finger on the back would it result in forehand having less power and stability and thus suffering? And although he never seems to block, this grip of his i found, is wildly unstable for TPB blocks.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

As for question of TPB not having a cross over point, i understand that one of the tactics for placement is hitting the ball near the teable edge lines at the elbow. Ive seen how my shake handed friends have to react to it, and that odd looking backhand, usually weak, looks really awkward. Other than that maybe they will lean to one side to hit a forehand so close to the body it looks like “chicken wing”.

Yeah but if practiced enough, you can put so much more quality into that elbow shot compared to SH

With tpb, the whole arm can pivot like a pendulum, hence there is no awkward point having to hold the bat at such an angle. And, using only one side means that there is no switching of rubber orientation, possibly speeding up reaction times for blocks (Ma Lin and Chiang Peng Lung on that list).

This is absolutely true! Also, you can use it to add variety to your TPB. I personally don't keep my racket at a straight 90 degree angle when I shoto, I keep it more of 45-60 (the racket head is pointed toward my face). This allows me to attack back, compared to 90 where it is the best for blocking.

However, Felix almost always play every shot on his backhand with rpb, which is similar in mechanics with the shake hand system. Hence, there is a crossover point at the elbow and rpb itself has slightly less mobility compared to shake hand, with the awkward bend of the wrist.

Of course, that's why I always recommend to learn both!

The only person i can really say that still has an element of traditional penhold back hand with less of a crossover point is Dang Qiu. Now without Matsumoto or Kai Yoshida playing on the world stage, there isn’t any professional single sided penholders anymore, or those who primarily use only one side, like Ma Lin. Dang Qiu has pretty good forehand, and i can say in terms of proper forehand with the power that distinguishes a pen holder, Dang Qiu beats Felix, for now anyways. With Felix’s grip, it allows for a flexible wrist for playing pretty good rpb backhand, but i was wondering with that amount of curled and stacked finger on the back would it result in forehand having less power and stability and thus suffering? And although he never seems to block, this grip of his i found, is wildly unstable for TPB blocks.

That's why Felix's forehand is uhh... weak? Dang Qiu is more Ma Lin and Xu Xin, whilst Felix is something else.

 

[olive-nguyen]

Well, there was one encounter between felix and Dang Qiu where i think Dang Qiu played quite a variety of high quality shots targeting his elbow. That really forced felix to have more footwork, and i believe penhold with exclusively rpb and i believe that has a larger crossover point than shakehand.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Well, there was one encounter between felix and Dang Qiu where i think Dang Qiu played quite a variety of high quality shots targeting his elbow. That really forced felix to have more footwork,...

Yep, won from a 2-0 lead I think. Qiu abused Felix's weakness!

...and i believe penhold with exclusively rpb and i believe that has a larger crossover point than shakehand.

Nope, they are probably the same size, it's not like PH has to turn more or anything. The crossover point is equal, unless PH uses its TPB advantage

 

[der Stift]

Wow this video looks so good! anyone can translate the first 3 minutes?

Not word for word, the substance of the video:
1. hold the racket deep
2. use the bottom and side of the thumb to generate power
3. hold the racket loose, use the thumb and index finger
to adjust racket angle, then hold the racket tight to exert (generate) power
4. the three fingers at the back are crucial, don't use the side of the fingers,
rather use the tip of the fingers to generate power.

 

[doppelmoral]

After waiting for about 3 weeks, my blade finally arrived. will glue a used h3 and a used o7p

blade measures 1340hz, 80g, 16.1x15.0 headsize

will be able to finally try out penhold today! will report back!

 

[BlotOnPaper]

After waiting for about 3 weeks, my blade finally arrived. will glue a used h3 and a used o7p

blade measures 1340hz, 80g, 16.1x15.0 headsize

will be able to finally try out penhold today! will report back!

I would really recomend to sand your blade a lot, just for comfort. It's hard to play powerfull RPB with sharp edges, skin gives up quite fast

 

[doppelmoral]

So guys, I played my penhold setup today. tons of fun, yinhe pro 05 blade plays very nicely. I enjoyed penhold alot

there is one major problem I have. The side of my index finger hurts alot. its not because of sharp edges, because I sanded the wings well

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I am aware that the way I grip the blade must be wrong somehow. maybe I try to put my wrist too much of an angle like when playing shakehand backhand?

anyway, hope I was able to explain the problem well enough and that you can give me tips. can also post pictures of my grip if needed

I really want to find a grip that is just comfortable to play all techniques without any strain / pain. because this penhold session was super fun

cheers!

 

[PenHoldSandro]

So guys, I played my penhold setup today. tons of fun, yinhe pro 05 blade plays very nicely. I enjoyed penhold alot

there is one major problem I have. The side of my index finger hurts alot. its not because of sharp edges, because I sanded the wings well

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I am aware that the way I grip the blade must be wrong somehow. maybe I try to put my wrist too much of an angle like when playing shakehand backhand?

anyway, hope I was able to explain the problem well enough and that you can give me tips. can also post pictures of my grip if needed

I really want to find a grip that is just comfortable to play all techniques without any strain / pain. because this penhold session was super fun

cheers!

For me, I simply retain the hold (it doesn't hurt)

I think we're gonna need some pictures 😅

I think I see the problem now (after holding and gripping my racket and following a few times), are you also using your wrist? For me I don't use my thumb all the way, just a bit to open up the racket while the wrist does the rest. My wrist will also move my index finger, so it doesn't hurt.

I would suggest moving your wrist some more if you aren't already, and if you are and it still hurts, pics please

 

[Oliverpool]

So guys, I played my penhold setup today. tons of fun, yinhe pro 05 blade plays very nicely. I enjoyed penhold alot

there is one major problem I have. The side of my index finger hurts alot. its not because of sharp edges, because I sanded the wings well

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I am aware that the way I grip the blade must be wrong somehow. maybe I try to put my wrist too much of an angle like when playing shakehand backhand?

anyway, hope I was able to explain the problem well enough and that you can give me tips. can also post pictures of my grip if needed

I really want to find a grip that is just comfortable to play all techniques without any strain / pain. because this penhold session was super fun

cheers!

You can try filing the back of the handle where the web of between your index and thumb rest in the handle. It helps relief pressure in the index finger. The recent butterfly video on dang qiu shows that he files his handle a lot on this area.

You can opt for a slightly more shallow grip as well. This means your grip moves further away from the wings. A shallow grip also usually results in less pressure on the index. But is also generally less stable.

 

[netdriver]

So guys, I played my penhold setup today. tons of fun, yinhe pro 05 blade plays very nicely. I enjoyed penhold alot

there is one major problem I have. The side of my index finger hurts alot. its not because of sharp edges, because I sanded the wings well

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I am aware that the way I grip the blade must be wrong somehow. maybe I try to put my wrist too much of an angle like when playing shakehand backhand?

anyway, hope I was able to explain the problem well enough and that you can give me tips. can also post pictures of my grip if needed

I really want to find a grip that is just comfortable to play all techniques without any strain / pain. because this penhold session was super fun

cheers!

u got any pictures of ur grip?

 

[zhzhzhz]

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I believe every shakehand player will try the Dang Qiu grip at least once. Im not saying this is a bad grip but most people get it wrong trying to copy it.

how you are holding the racket is completely preference as I have covered before. You need to make sure your grip is not too tight. My coach says you need to have a grip loose enough that if someone were to pull your racket from your hand, it needs to leave your hand. Most beginner players tighten their grip too much and it stiffens their wrist and hurts their fingers.

Dang Qiu`s grip IMO is a bit stiff and requires a lot of pressure from the fingers.

If you watch this video, you can see his hands pretty clearly, and to me, it looks like he exerts a lot of pressure from his fingers. He also said that his hands in certain parts would hurt a lot for someone who is new to penhold or his type of grip.

TLDR: Ease up on the grip and keep your hands shallow. I used the same grip and keeping my fingers shallow has helped me with RPB and the pain the racket causes. Only apply pressure with the thumb or index finger for now. Use the back-side fingers as pivot.

 

[zhzhzhz]

Yeah but if practiced enough, you can put so much more quality into that elbow shot compared to SH

Penhold players tend to learn a bit slower than shake hand players due to how complicated the "Applying pressure at the right spot" and "Learning two different backhands" parts. I don't recommend learning the pressure thing until you are really good.

This is absolutely true! Also, you can use it to add variety to your TPB. I personally don't keep my racket at a straight 90 degree angle when I shoto, I keep it more of 45-60 (the racket head is pointed toward my face). This allows me to attack back, compared to 90 where it is the best for blocking.

I don't know if I have missed out on some context of the block. for me I believe this is the definition of blocking:
"In table tennis, "blocking" is a defensive stroke where a player uses the speed and spin of their opponent's shot to return the ball, aiming to keep it in play and put pressure on the opponent. "

you don't get any spin by blocking with 90 degree. When you are blocking against somewhat decent topspin, you need to have a closed racket angle in order to effectively block the ball low and not give them a high ball.

if you block topspin with 90 degree, the ball will fly up, and you might receive a heavier loop on the next attack.

Of course, that's why I always recommend to learn both!

Not mentioning me this time huh?

That's why Felix's forehand is uhh... weak? Dang Qiu is more Ma Lin and Xu Xin, whilst Felix is something else.

Felix has a forehand and playing style extremely similar to Wang Hao. Felix does have some differences but the overall playstyle is the same.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Penhold players tend to learn a bit slower than shake hand players due to how complicated the "Applying pressure at the right spot" and "Learning two different backhands" parts. I don't recommend learning the pressure thing until you are really good.

Yep, 100% agree!

I don't know if I have missed out on some context of the block. for me I believe this is the definition of blocking:
"In table tennis, "blocking" is a defensive stroke where a player uses the speed and spin of their opponent's shot to return the ball, aiming to keep it in play and put pressure on the opponent. "

you don't get any spin by blocking with 90 degree. When you are blocking against somewhat decent topspin, you need to have a closed racket angle in order to effectively block the ball low and not give them a high ball.

if you block topspin with 90 degree, the ball will fly up, and you might receive a heavier loop on the next attack.

I don't think you know what I mean by 90 degrees. By 90 degrees, I mean where the racket head is pointed. So a forehand stroke will have a more 180 degree angle, and TPB with 90. If you still don't get what I mean, it's like a clock where the handle is in the middle and the head goes outward.

Not mentioning me this time huh?

Well firstly, it isn't just you who says this :| a lot of people do, including me. Secondly, I already mentioned you (about learning TPB before RPB)

Felix has a forehand and playing style extremely similar to Wang Hao. Felix does have some differences but the overall playstyle is the same.

For me...

Name	Forehand %	Backhand %
Ma Lin	75	25
Ryu Seung Min	90	10
Xu Xin	65	35
Wang Hao	45	55
Felix Lebrun	25	75

Felix is the most backhand oriented Penholder EVER, that's why his style is so different!

 

[zhzhzhz]

I don't think you know what I mean by 90 degrees. By 90 degrees, I mean where the racket head is pointed. So a forehand stroke will have a more 180 degree angle, and TPB with 90. If you still don't get what I mean, it's like a clock where the handle is in the middle and the head goes

Blocking means you need to have your racket at an angle not straight 90 degree.
You will only give a highball if you keep your racket open…

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Blocking means you need to have your racket at an angle not straight 90 degree.
You will only give a highball if you keep your racket open…

A 90 degree angle in this scenario doesn't mean an open racket. What is the other way you can input degrees for racket position? Think about that

 

[Oliverpool]

A 90 degree angle in this scenario doesn't mean an open racket. What is the other way you can input degrees for racket position? Think about that

I agree. Most Penholder with various grip still block with the racket at 90 degree but the blade face can still be closed. Have to think in 3 dimensions. While a counter or loop or Topspin has the racket more starting near 45 and ending around 90-120.

 

[zhzhzhz]

I agree. Most Penholder with various grip still block with the racket at 90 degree but the blade face can still be closed. Have to think in 3 dimensions. While a counter or loop or Topspin has the racket more starting near 45 and ending around 90-120.

What im trying to say is that you can block like that but the ball comes too high. At a low level just blocking it back is enough. The more close your racket angle is the better the block is. The ball stays low and gives your opponent more pressure without having to do an aggressive block.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

I agree. Most Penholder with various grip still block with the racket at 90 degree but the blade face can still be closed. Have to think in 3 dimensions. While a counter or loop or Topspin has the racket more starting near 45 and ending around 90-120.

Yes! Someone who gets it!

What im trying to say is that you can block like that but the ball comes too high. At a low level just blocking it back is enough. The more close your racket angle is the better the block is. The ball stays low and gives your opponent more pressure without having to do an aggressive block.

No! Someone who doesn't!