Damien Éloi: Are the top players’ rubbers different?

[\_Kairos_/]

most of them should have
who doesn't?

I'm fairly certain that Ovidiu Ionescu (Romania), solid Top 100 player (and briefly in the Top 50) doesn't have a sponsor. He used to be sponsored by Stiga years and years ago, but then they parted ways for some reason (possibly got caught playing Tenergy...). In a (german) podcast in 2020 he mentioned that other brands gave him a "thumbs down" when he asked them for sponsorship. In recent years he has played different stuff from different brands...

 

[Metaxa]

Uh, ZJK has said straight up that his Butterfly rubbers were a few degrees harder than commercial ones.

Possible! And a few weeks later, they will start production of a new line with harder rubbers from a few degrees more.

 

[PoppaChubby]

Every french player was wearing + playing the brand he was endorsing no matter his age or career achievements during the last french nationals. Even Stéphane Ouaiche, who's not in the France's team anymore since before the pandemic is sponsored by Andro (Adam Bobrow knows it well...), and he's not ITTF ranked anymore at 32. He'll start again to be ranked for sure when he'll enter the WTT circus next September for Algeria.

It's not the rank that matters, it's the market: Europe is the second biggest market on the planet after Asia, first Germany then France, it's way more difficult to get something when you come from Australia, South America, the US or Africa, even when you're still ITTF ranked.

Ovidiu Ionescu is getting old, no brand will bet on him, and he's not been as clever as Karakasevic for example. Man the serb knew how to make business in TT !

Jianan Yuan is not endorsing any brand too, neither Butterfly nor Victas, she's getting old too. So chances are she uses general public rubbers... well only the BH one.

 

[\_Kairos_/]

...
Ovidiu Ionescu is getting old, no brand will bet on him, ...

That's what I was thinking too, at first, but then again Ionescus (former) longtime teammate Daniel Habesohn is even older and of similar playing strength, and he is still being sponsored by Joola, so it can't be age alone.
Both Ionesu and Habesohn are still 1. Bundesliga players. It's a bit baffling that one has a reliable sponsor who apparently still believes in him and the other doesn't. Perhaps Ionesu now enjoys playing whatever kind of material he wants to.

 

[dingyibvs]

Possible! And a few weeks later, they will start production of a new line with harder rubbers from a few degrees more.

He used T64 for many years and a harder version was never released though.

 

[piligrim]

Team JOOLA - Table Tennis

JOOLA is an innovative leading brand, representing World #1 pickleball player Ben Johns and a multi-year Olympic sponsor for table tennis. JOOLA creates a variety of equipment, apparel, & accessories for pickleball and table tennis, both professional & recreational. Shop our paddles, nets...

joola.com

joola's list is incomplete
the USA website seems to have only some USA players on there,

PRO'S | TIBHAR

tibhar.info

Exactly! Its only players from USA on JOOLA US

Thanks for Tibhar list. I couldn't find it. Information about players equipment outdated and missing

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I'm fairly certain that Ovidiu Ionescu (Romania), solid Top 100 player (and briefly in the Top 50) doesn't have a sponsor. He used to be sponsored by Stiga years and years ago, but then they parted ways for some reason (possibly got caught playing Tenergy...). In a (german) podcast in 2020 he mentioned that other brands gave him a "thumbs down" when he asked them for sponsorship. In recent years he has played different stuff from different brands...

thats interesting

what does he use?

 

[\_Kairos_/]

thats interesting

what does he use?

For years his go-to-equipment was Clipper CC + T05 both sides.
Now, well in recent matches and on his tiktok account we can see him using HL5 (or more likely W968). The rubbers do seem to have an orange sponge and the Butterfly logo printed on them; so it looks like he is still counting on Tenergy (05 or 05 Hard I'd guess)
I believe this is one of his last clips on tiktok:

https://www.tiktok.com/video/7522902666687696150

Our "friend" Emrathich claims that he is using Omega VII Pro and T64. Personally, I don't buy that.

 

[lightspin]

Why don't manufacturers just release these super versions of the rubber for sale? They probably cost a lot more to produce and have much higher quality control. Also for some teams the rubbers are finely tuned directly for the individual athlete.

But if you want to believe the top international pros get their equipment off the shelf like your average Joe, then that is fine with me.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Why don't manufacturers just release these super versions of the rubber for sale? They probably cost a lot more to produce and have much higher quality control. Also for some teams the rubbers are finely tuned directly for the individual athlete.

But if you want to believe the top international pros get their equipment off the shelf like your average Joe, then that is fine with me.

DHS has done that
not too many people using them - too expensive

and some other brands claim the top international pros are using the same equipment as all the average Joe's and Joan's

 

[piligrim]

Why don't manufacturers just release these super versions of the rubber for sale? They probably cost a lot more to produce and have much higher quality control. Also for some teams the rubbers are finely tuned directly for the individual athlete.

But if you want to believe the top international pros get their equipment off the shelf like your average Joe, then that is fine with me.

Then we back to question what make players top players. Personal equipment that makes magic or training hours
It just sound weird players who train 10 hours a day not able to play with rubbers we are using

 

[Tyce]

Then we back to question what make players top players. Personal equipment that makes magic or training hours
It just sound weird players who train 10 hours a day not able to play with rubbers we are using

Max Verstappen would absolutely smoke me in my car, but he likes to drive his own car more...

Top athletes could perform just the same with a commercial rubber and blade, but they have the opportunity to fine tune and get a real sportscar out of it.

But to answer the question what the real difference is between a top player's setup and a commercial one: booster.
All the stories point to it, the rubber feels softer, more lively, grabs better... Guess what does that? Exactly.

 

[piligrim]

Max Verstappen would absolutely smoke me in my car, but he likes to drive his own car more...

Top athletes could perform just the same with a commercial rubber and blade, but they have the opportunity to fine tune and get a real sportscar out of it.

But to answer the question what the real difference is between a top player's setup and a commercial one: booster.
All the stories point to it, the rubber feels softer, more lively, grabs better... Guess what does that? Exactly.

I don't know who is Max Verstappen and why he will smoke in your car ...

 

[Airoc]

HL5 + 05 Hard

Correct, with d05 for backhand.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Then we back to question what make players top players. Personal equipment that makes magic or training hours
It just sound weird players who train 10 hours a day not able to play with rubbers we are using

for elite, every fine detail is a magic moment.
Same thing as you can't give F1 car drivers or any race car drivers you average Joe car tyres.

equipment is actually so technical, I don't expect much to understand it.
when pros spec equipment - they spec it to the tee.
ie, when they want a 97 gram blade, they don't want 96 or 98.

gluing is very specific too. The longest I know is a 3 hour glue job (not factoring in the boosting period, just white glue part only).
the feeling on the equipment cannot be explained to amateurs.
just like I can't control or feel the ball like Messi and he would never be able to explain to me the feeling or how to control the ball.
or can I pick up flaws like Curry in this video
there are really fine details that elite sees and can adapt too, but they also prefer certain equipment to suit their needs. This is also why some players do not use equipment from brands that sponsor them.

 

[zeio]

Why don't manufacturers just release these super versions of the rubber for sale? They probably cost a lot more to produce and have much higher quality control. Also for some teams the rubbers are finely tuned directly for the individual athlete.

But if you want to believe the top international pros get their equipment off the shelf like your average Joe, then that is fine with me.

That. As explained by Guan Yasong, DHS's Marketing Manager and Product Center Supervisor in 2012.

The biggest difference between National H3 (the ones for the core CNT players) and the rest is that they come straight out of 红双喜研究所/DHS Research Institute, rather than the assembly line which was said to be 3 in various locations the last time I checked.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/the-myth-of-custom-rubbers.21039/post-274493

TTW: Provincial Hurricane and National Hurricane are always in shortage on the market. Why not increase production volume?
DHS: Professionals are very sensitive, even just a little change is enough to cause a distortion on the technical style. The difference in sandwich rubbers is mostly the tolerance of various parameters. The tolerance for National is the tightest. For Provincial the range is a little larger. Commercial is on a certain level. Sandwich rubber is a rubber product, as such it is very difficult to assure every parameter is consistent. This is why the yield rates of National and Provincial versions are not as high. If we were to increase volume, it would mean we need to produce many more units to get more National and Provincial versions at those yield rates, which is prohibitive in terms of production capacity.

Other than hardness and overall thickness (the most common two), they could play with many parameters, down to the protective film thickness and gloss.

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...ype-around-the-hype-around-national-h3#990282

On the T64, though hard to make out due to the compression artifacts, what looks to be the characters "非賣品"(meaning not for sale) with the Butterfly logo and some text below can be seen in the top center. Near the bottom, two lines that look to be "ＭＤＳＰ－トクアツ－２。１ｍｍ"(トクアツ => tokuatsu, extra thick) and "－－－－ＫＪ－－－－".

On the H3, other than the usual alphanumeric, "李晓霞"(LXX) is laser-printed, followed by the word "Rio". "国 2.10/40"(National) is where they're supposed to be. A cursive "李"(Li) can be seen on the top left corner. It comes with a layer of primer, AKA "打底层".

 

[ttarc]

... Other than hardness and overall thickness (the most common two), they could play with many parameters, down to the protective film thickness and gloss...

DHS seems to be doing that...

"What are the differences in performance between national sets, provincial sets, and hurricane sets? What are the common specifications for national team members? What is the difference between star national sets and national sets?
National hurricane sets, provincial hurricane sets, and general hurricane sets use the same formula. The main difference between the three is the tolerance accuracy of the indicators. For example, the hardness requirements of national team athletes can be accurate to 0.5 degrees and the thickness can be accurate to 0.05mm, so the detection tolerance range of national sets is smaller. The detection tolerance range for general athletes is slightly relaxed.
In addition, in different periods, top-notch players such as Ma Long will have different requirements for the viscosity of the rubber or the hardness of the sponge, which requires fine-tuning. Therefore, there are slight differences in the national sets of different stars, and there are also differences in the same star player in different technical cycles or event cycles...."
"Handbook of DHS T.T. Products (in Chinese language).pdf" https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1xss4XdArxyhyyifUyy3y2tzR3AC6zGlT

 

[piligrim]

for elite, every fine detail is a magic moment.
Same thing as you can't give F1 car drivers or any race car drivers you average Joe car tyres.

equipment is actually so technical, I don't expect much to understand it.
when pros spec equipment - they spec it to the tee.
ie, when they want a 97 gram blade, they don't want 96 or 98.

gluing is very specific too. The longest I know is a 3 hour glue job (not factoring in the boosting period, just white glue part only).
the feeling on the equipment cannot be explained to amateurs.
just like I can't control or feel the ball like Messi and he would never be able to explain to me the feeling or how to control the ball.
or can I pick up flaws like Curry in this video
there are really fine details that elite sees and can adapt too, but they also prefer certain equipment to suit their needs. This is also why some players do not use equipment from brands that sponsor them.

I don't think analogy with cars works here. There is no commercial and national version of same car. Also you not able to buy F1 car, register on your name and drive around town. F1 cars totally different and can be used on in F1.
While everybody can by national versions of rubbers and blades and use it

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

DHS seems to be doing that...

"What are the differences in performance between national sets, provincial sets, and hurricane sets? What are the common specifications for national team members? What is the difference between star national sets and national sets?
National hurricane sets, provincial hurricane sets, and general hurricane sets use the same formula. The main difference between the three is the tolerance accuracy of the indicators. For example, the hardness requirements of national team athletes can be accurate to 0.5 degrees and the thickness can be accurate to 0.05mm, so the detection tolerance range of national sets is smaller. The detection tolerance range for general athletes is slightly relaxed.

you are right
zeio is posting 10 year old things.

the production volume of national rubbers now compared to 10 years ago is thousand fold increase.
The quality is much better and it is widely available for resellers to purchase and resell.
10 years ago, it was forbidden and can only get via provincial teams.

However, even today ,the quality given to Provincial teams (and higher) are fresher and higher quality.
i have noticed that and there are rumours certain codes on the rubber are the "pro" national versions

other than "spec", I also want to emphasis of freshness of the rubber.
a 1 month old, vs 1 year old rubber performance is also very difference (as in rubber sitting on the shelf and opened after 1 month or 1 year).

I have had European pros making an offer to me to buy my "1 month old" rubbers. Some of them say, they normally only get 4 to 6 month old products.

In addition, in different periods, top-notch players such as Ma Long will have different requirements for the viscosity of the rubber or the hardness of the sponge, which requires fine-tuning. Therefore, there are slight differences in the national sets of different stars, and there are also differences in the same star player in different technical cycles or event cycles...."

you are right.
the players do request changes very often.
most times due to the match conditions.
It is so technical that, to me, even keep grasps on it is a headache.
This is why there is one full time DHS staff that manages all the CNT players rubbers (orders)

DHS does make a "generic" Pro player version for sale.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't think analogy with cars works here. There is no commercial and national version of same car. Also you not able to buy F1 car, register on your name and drive around town. F1 cars totally different and can be used on in F1.

that is why i'm using tires.

if you think pro racers can use normal tires for the same performance as pro racing tires, it means you don't understand racing too.

While everybody can by national versions of rubbers and blades and use it

while you can buy Ma Long pro version rubbers.
it sure isn't catered for your needs, where tire companies can tailor designs and productions for its F1 and other racing teams.

To think that there are people that think companies will not do special treatment for their "elite" team - which represent the companies quality and performance ability, to me is just a big shock.
never the less, I have seen with my own eyes with players I managed and also know enough people in the likes of DHS and CNT to know a bit of these "hidden" stories.

having said that, I'm not sure if Shell's Vpower fuel is the same. I do think it is marketing and I do think the elite still gets elite quality products.