Match tactics

[Zezima]

I think it is from his hard rubbers. Inconsistent rubber activation is killing his confidence.

I will read the other comments once I am back at home. But finally someone understands me.
Its not that I cant hit the ball hard its the fact that I need to know according to the incoming ball how hard I am allowed to hit to activate the sponge without risking hitting too much and breaking my form.
When I am off position this problem gets worse because my brain gets confused. If I hit slow and end up not activating the sponge the ball might still fly out depending on my swing path so I break my motion even further or try to adjust with stupid elbow motions as if I can "drive" the ball back on the table.

I can write many more about how I feel during the rally but it pisses me off that its not a technical problem per se. I can topspin all kinds of balls in a training environment. If you tell me to loop hard I can do it if you tell me to loop half long serves safely back I can do it.

But my brain has a hard time memorizing the threshholds of this hard rubber. And if I never know how much I am allowed to hit my brain goes survival mode and puts only as less as possible. That way it doesnt care if I activate the sponge or not because I hit soft and slow the ball will somehow land on the table still.
Also because of my size tabletennis in a match feels like I play on a smaller table. Maybe someone who played on these minitables know what I feel. Basically my strokes all look so big and "too much" if my motion is not snappy but shallow like I do where I still follow the ball with my aftermotion for too long my form for the next ball breaks.
That means if I get a soft block back I have to adjust my body weight and my brain has no time to calculate how to hit that next topspin. In training when I am not under pressure it works much better.

So basically my thoughtprocess was maybe I can lower that threshold if I play softer rubbers and give up the endspeed for it. So the rubber activates earlier and I get that confidence earlier? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

the thread is about match tactics and you're back posting about rubber hardness and sponge activation.

EJ one day, EJ always...

you're overthinking it. IMO you should forget about all these things, they pollute your mind.
just focus on technique , or here on tactics

 

[Zezima]

That was the other point a high level coach I know used to make, it was that the kinds of tactics he would teach should be common sense and that if you play proper TT, most of the tactics tend to take care of themself. If someone needs to tell you that you are getting beat in backhand exchanges and when you put the ball on the backhand, you are either too stressed or need to find another sport.1

I somewhat agree but it is not that bad, but I do agree with you. The OP's style does not try to dominate within the first few shots though he does have some nice serve and attack with his shorter serves. Just wish he could be consistent about this.

You really think short serves benefit my playstyle? I always felt cluecless what to do with a good short push back or worse with a flip. In training drills when I tell them to fh flip my serve I am very relaxed and happy but in matches I feel stressed out.

I will note this down to further observe it more. It's definetly a serve I can do constantly and very low and short to the fh. Actually I like all my serves I mean I can do any spinvariation and length and placement. Only serves I struggle with are the fast long ones under pressure. Yesterday those serves worked really well but I was still scared and didn't do them as often as I should have done sadly. I keep worrying what if I am too late for the incoming ball? ...

IMPORTANT: READ AFTER YOUR GAMES, NOT BEFORE.

The third video has a great reference point for your foot work. Something to look at is that red line. You have no business being behind that line as you don't play an away from the table game. Note how you creep past that line as you have this habit of little shifts backwards and you do it more as you get tired and loose confidence. When you go behind that line, your FH looses power as you are starting to reach and take the ball as it is dropping and this just sets your opponent up for an attack. Just something to think about moving forward as that line shows how you creep back against opponents who are not hitting the ball hard at all. You are creeping back, depowering your FH in particular, and giving your opponent better angles to work with, resulting in you stretching and lifting your foot.

This can be a difficult habit to break. A good drill for this is to do a stable rally where every 5th (pick a number that works for you) shot you have to come back forward to the table. You might surprise yourself how easy it is to attack moving forward particularly with your height. This can help teach an awareness and hopefully an unconscious get back to the table habit.


Regarding your gear setup since you have a thread running about it. You are correct that nobody plays short or over the table..this is unusual as serves that predictably go over the edge of the table should be punished, particularly slow to medium serves. I would definitely be looking at rubbers that focus on this over rubbers that are strong over the table. Seems pointless looking at the people you are competing against. I would be focusing on overpowering my opponents shots and I would select rubbers that help you do this. You are at your best when you are driving the point, so do this.

Since you like to work your way back....I would definitely set you up with catapult focused rubbers and no hard rubber, medium. They will help you attack first with an open up and when you go back, the catapult effect makes it harder for your opponent to take the speed and spin off the ball dropping it short on you back there. You want to attack first and create a game where the ball is coming to you nicely to attack.

I agree even yesterday that happened a lot. I was further back and then I am reaching for the fh balls with a no spin block? It's not really chopping but not quite blocking either. But you know what I mean. I think I give up too much angle for him but my brain feels safer at that distance. My brain tells me atleast that way I can somewhat bring the ball back. It literally doesn't give a fuck about how I bring it back. And this is what I am trying to change but fail currently. In this league it's not enough to bring the ball back but to bring it back with quality...

In training this doesn't happen maybe 10-20% I assume compared to matches 60%

This can be a difficult habit to break. A good drill for this is to do a stable rally where every 5th (pick a number that works for you) shot you have to come back forward to the table. You might surprise yourself how easy it is to attack moving forward particularly with your height. This can help teach an awareness and hopefully an unconscious get back to the table habit.

What do you mean by a 5 shot rally? I don't think an open rally where I can expect 5 blocks from my trainingspartner is gonna be easy. I did do a few drills like starting close to the table going backwards (3x) and then going 3x forwards back to close to the table constantly looping diagonal. But I don't do this drill often. Maybe once in 2-3months.

I def see a big problem that seems to happen quite frequently is I go too much back and don't realize if they block that I have to step in. Even if I would loop those balls the ball is at the very falling stages and sinks before me. So I would need to go more into the ball. I have noted this down.

 

[Zezima]

the thread is about match tactics and you're back posting about rubber hardness and sponge activation.

EJ one day, EJ always...

you're overthinking it. IMO you should forget about all these things, they pollute your mind.
just focus on technique , or here on tactics

Because in my head I have that little hope if I play a more forgiving rubber/ a rubber that doesn't need that much penetration, that I am gonna be more confident in looping. I don't know if thats gonna be the case for me. Someitmes I want to penetrate the rubber but I don't want to play a fast shot. And that is super hard.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it is from his hard rubbers. Inconsistent rubber activation is killing his confidence.

This is all a bunch of nonsense. Not that he shouldn't change rubber or play with something softer but that the whole idea of thinking in those terms is nonsense. His arm acceleration and stroke paths are clearly lacking and he is blaming the rubber. Guys, the kid that posts his YouTube videos here uses 09c on his forehand (admittedly on Boll ALC). The main difference is that the kid is committed to close to the table and powerful play, OP is really a counterpuncher who wants to take advantage of chance opportunities. Are you telling me that OP cannot accelerate his forearm faster than the kid can?

The biggest decision the OP has to make is that he needs to decide how he wants to win and lose points. It is okay to win or lose points by pushing and defending and looking for chance opportunities. But don't blame that decision on the Li equipment. And don't blame your poor arm acceleration and bad stroke trajectory on the equipment if you cant credit your great short pushes and blocks on the equipment as well. And if you think you will play differently with a softer rubber, why waste time asking people about it, why not just buy or borrow the rubbers and use them for two months?

I started playing tournaments in 2011. When I started, I worked with a coach who drilled me but didn't teach me how to develop a system, I changed in 2012 to another coach. With him, I didn't have the kind of coaching people got. My coach, who got good as an adult, largely skipped deep footwork and stroke training and focused on backhand play, serve and third ball practice with the idea that if I got better at using these things in matches, he would over time refine them and then I would have instincts that I could apply to all kinds of situations. Just about everything was a form of adaptation. But the problem was that it never felt really good doing it because I didn't have a framework for approaching the ball (my fault, not his). Finally I worked remotely with a national team coach who helped me appreciate some things about the biomechanics and point structure of the modern game. He was the one that built into me the attack the long balls mentality. He made me realize that it was perfectly okay to lose playing a certain way and it changed my mental game completely. Practicing a lot of shots also helped me think about how to adapt misses.

Equipment is something that you ultimately adapt to. If you are not getting the right result with it, use it better. If you do not think you are physically capable of using it better, change it, but do realize there are tradeoffs. I played a guy this week with two different setups, one using 09c, the other using Zyre 03. Playing him with 09c, I just attacked the ball exclusively and relentlessly and often overpowered his cop blocks. But with Zyre03, fast swings went long or into the net so I had to slow down and time the ball much better to avoid hitting long. Also had to open the racket more and close it less because the tack of 09c was more forgiving. And these are two rubbers in the same spin class for the most part.

If he wants to continue to back off the table and play topspins from mid distance with easier wings, yes,09c is not designed for that generally. But in the end, you adapt to your equipment. Focus on what you need to do to make it work and stop acting as if a bad workman should be allowed to blame his tools.

 

[NextLevel]

Because in my head I have that little hope if I play a more forgiving rubber/ a rubber that doesn't need that much penetration, that I am gonna be more confident in looping. I don't know if thats gonna be the case for me. Someitmes I want to penetrate the rubber but I don't want to play a fast shot. And that is super hard.

There is no magic answer other than to practice hitting a lot of balls at a lot of distances against a lot of spins and to try to use the whole body to power the shot while reducing the use of the upper arm to retain recovery and stability. No magic answers. But when you hit a lot of balls and connect your stroke path, contact point and arm acceleration and the spin on the incoming ball to the result, you just adapt and become much better at it. It is about adaptation, not logical reasoning. Will you miss a lot, sure. But always remember ‐ a stroke that misses the ball in one situation will put the ball on the table in another!

 

[NextLevel]

You really think short serves benefit my playstyle? I always felt cluecless what to do with a good short push back or worse with a flip. In training drills when I tell them to fh flip my serve I am very relaxed and happy but in matches I feel stressed out.

I will note this down to further observe it more. It's definetly a serve I can do constantly and very low and short to the fh. Actually I like all my serves I mean I can do any spinvariation and length and placement. Only serves I struggle with are the fast long ones under pressure. Yesterday those serves worked really well but I was still scared and didn't do them as often as I should have done sadly. I keep worrying what if I am too late for the incoming ball? ...


I agree even yesterday that happened a lot. I was further back and then I am reaching for the fh balls with a no spin block? It's not really chopping but not quite blocking either. But you know what I mean. I think I give up too much angle for him but my brain feels safer at that distance. My brain tells me atleast that way I can somewhat bring the ball back. It literally doesn't give a fuck about how I bring it back. And this is what I am trying to change but fail currently. In this league it's not enough to bring the ball back but to bring it back with quality...

In training this doesn't happen maybe 10-20% I assume compared to matches 60%


What do you mean by a 5 shot rally? I don't think an open rally where I can expect 5 blocks from my trainingspartner is gonna be easy. I did do a few drills like starting close to the table going backwards (3x) and then going 3x forwards back to close to the table constantly looping diagonal. But I don't do this drill often. Maybe once in 2-3months.

I def see a big problem that seems to happen quite frequently is I go too much back and don't realize if they block that I have to step in. Even if I would loop those balls the ball is at the very falling stages and sinks before me. So I would need to go more into the ball. I have noted this down.

Most players at our levels have poor short games, your forehand pushing skills are significantly above your overall playing level. When I serve, what i am looking for is an opportunity to attack. Usually, this means a ball that comes long or comes high. You don't have the right mindset when you serve, your first focus after the serve should be offensive and the opponent should have to do something to your serve to make you defensive. For me, a long push that doesn’t jam me is a great outcome, and even the ones that jam me might be great as well, they just tell me that I need to move better to get the shot I want. A pop-up is a great out come, it is an opportunity to attack and if I place the ball right, I might win immediately but if not I should get an easier 5th ball. Immediately I serve, I am trying to attack any ball that goes to most parts of the table with very few exceptions, basically a tight short push or a really fast flick or opening topspin return.

You havs a biased view of your long serves, none of them were really fast and even the ones that won the point outright were relatively slow and risky. The thing about short topspin is that below a certain level, most people think every short serve is backspin. If you can get them to pop up the return, then uae it to fuel your attack. And if you can defend when they attack, then you have no fear. I know a guy who always serves shirt reverse sidespin because he knows if you flick to his forehand he can loop to your backhand and get you out of position. This is the mentality you need when serving. You should have automated offensive responses that prepare you to take advantage of the point as early as possible.

5 ball is usually, 1 serve backspin, 2 get a push receive, 3 open with very spinny third ball off the push , 4 get a block from the opponent, and the fifth shot is to 5 punish the block with power or a well placed finishing spin or both. It is the traditional way to play opponents who do not counter or pressure slow opening loops. As you get better, good players will do more with the slow opening loop so this is not as effective but it still works somewhat at every level. The quality of the serve and the opening topspin matter as the heavier the serve, usually the heavier the push return and rhe heavier the opening loop. In fact one of the reasons modern pushes focus on speed and not spin is to avoid this spin loading dynamic.

But you need to practice the 5-th ball attacking process. Your opponent played a couple but even he could have been much more effective at it.

 

[MORTtheORT]

I will read the other comments once I am back at home. But finally someone understands me.
Its not that I cant hit the ball hard its the fact that I need to know according to the incoming ball how hard I am allowed to hit to activate the sponge without risking hitting too much and breaking my form.
When I am off position this problem gets worse because my brain gets confused. If I hit slow and end up not activating the sponge the ball might still fly out depending on my swing path so I break my motion even further or try to adjust with stupid elbow motions as if I can "drive" the ball back on the table.

I can write many more about how I feel during the rally but it pisses me off that its not a technical problem per se. I can topspin all kinds of balls in a training environment. If you tell me to loop hard I can do it if you tell me to loop half long serves safely back I can do it.

But my brain has a hard time memorizing the threshholds of this hard rubber. And if I never know how much I am allowed to hit my brain goes survival mode and puts only as less as possible. That way it doesnt care if I activate the sponge or not because I hit soft and slow the ball will somehow land on the table still.
Also because of my size tabletennis in a match feels like I play on a smaller table. Maybe someone who played on these minitables know what I feel. Basically my strokes all look so big and "too much" if my motion is not snappy but shallow like I do where I still follow the ball with my aftermotion for too long my form for the next ball breaks.
That means if I get a soft block back I have to adjust my body weight and my brain has no time to calculate how to hit that next topspin. In training when I am not under pressure it works much better.

So basically my thoughtprocess was maybe I can lower that threshold if I play softer rubbers and give up the endspeed for it. So the rubber activates earlier and I get that confidence earlier? Correct me if I am wrong.

You are not alone in how you feel. We all go through this at some time and the frustration is real. I think you do need to find rubbers that help you play the game you want to and at the appropriate level. Modern hard rubbers have high demand requirements on the player technically, mentally and strategically. I think you might surprise yourself at how fast a medium rubber can be when you are confident and consistent with it. My current T05 1.9mm is well fast enough to constantly hit winners against 2000 rated players and more importantly, forcing them to play defensive. Then the tactics play a part as you have trust in your game to execute the strategy. Very hard to have a strategy and play smart when you are constantly doubting your shots. Your game is at its best when on the attack and these hard rubbers are making you doubt your attack.

The next step is using your height to your advantage. And this starts with your wing span near the table. This is your advantage and when your FH becomes fast and safe.....you will basically cover the entire table with your FH.... remember that table looks small to you, but your wing span looks massive to your opponent. A BH serve from you will make your opponent feel like they can't avoid your FH..but this is all for after you get confidence and safety into your positive shots.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

But my brain has a hard time memorizing the threshholds of this hard rubber. And if I never know how much I am allowed to hit my brain goes survival mode and puts only as less as possible. That way it doesnt care if I activate the sponge or not because I hit soft and slow the ball will somehow land on the table still.
Also because of my size tabletennis in a match feels like I play on a smaller table. Maybe someone who played on these minitables know what I feel. Basically my strokes all look so big and "too much" if my motion is not snappy but shallow like I do where I still follow the ball with my aftermotion for too long my form for the next ball breaks.
That means if I get a soft block back I have to adjust my body weight and my brain has no time to calculate how to hit that next topspin. In training when I am not under pressure it works much better.

Please remember that you told everyone yesterday that they need to stay on topic on threads so please follow the same rules you impose on others.

I don't think changing equipment will really make much difference either way but from what I saw in the videos, you rarely loop hard and are more of a "reach and touch" type rather than making active and aggressive strokes with arm speed. So no, I don't think H3, or even 09c/hybrids really, would be good for you.

From one year ago

I can write many more about how I feel during the rally but it pisses me off that its not a technical problem per se. I can topspin all kinds of balls in a training environment. If you tell me to loop hard I can do it if you tell me to loop half long serves safely back I can do it.

Congratulations you just described every table tennis player ever - can do things in training but can't necessarily do them in a match. That is a technical problem because your technique isn't good enough that it can happen subconsciously.

 

[NextLevel]

From one year ago
I don't think changing equipment will really make much difference either way but from what I saw in the videos, you rarely loop hard and are more of a "reach and touch" type rather than making active and aggressive strokes with arm speed. So no, I don't think H3, or even 09c/hybrids really, would be good for you.


Congratulations you just described every table tennis player ever - can do things in training but can't necessarily do them in a match. That is a technical problem because your technique isn't good enough that it can happen subconsciously.

Very experienced amateurs (don't know @ThePongCommenter but I will pretend he is a very experienced amateur with a much higher playing level than OP, likely better than that) are repeating earned wisdom and @Zezima, like the good adult learner he is, will push back with self-defense. You need to find a better balance between knowing who to listen to and what to work on. But the biggest thing that one must accept with any change is that usually, with rare exceptions, there is a period of discomfort and playing worse before playing better. And when you complain too much about misses rather than figuring out how to use them to adapt, this stagnates the learning process and brings you back to square one.

I shouldn't be the pot calling the kettle black because I used to argue with my second coach (now of late memory) *all the time*. But the good thing for someone who at least loves the sport as much as you do, @Zezima, is that if you find the right mentor, and find a better way to express your curiosity without being defensive, you will gain a lot.

So since you have slowed down the blade already, decide whether you want to change during or after the season. Or if you have two Korbels. build a backup blade with what you want to test. Then see how it goes in practice and then go from there. But even with the new rubbers, you still need to practice attacking and accelerating the forearm.

 

[MORTtheORT]

You really think short serves benefit my playstyle? I always felt cluecless what to do with a good short push back or worse with a flip. In training drills when I tell them to fh flip my serve I am very relaxed and happy but in matches I feel stressed out.

I will note this down to further observe it more. It's definetly a serve I can do constantly and very low and short to the fh. Actually I like all my serves I mean I can do any spinvariation and length and placement. Only serves I struggle with are the fast long ones under pressure. Yesterday those serves worked really well but I was still scared and didn't do them as often as I should have done sadly. I keep worrying what if I am too late for the incoming ball? ...


I agree even yesterday that happened a lot. I was further back and then I am reaching for the fh balls with a no spin block? It's not really chopping but not quite blocking either. But you know what I mean. I think I give up too much angle for him but my brain feels safer at that distance. My brain tells me atleast that way I can somewhat bring the ball back. It literally doesn't give a fuck about how I bring it back. And this is what I am trying to change but fail currently. In this league it's not enough to bring the ball back but to bring it back with quality...

In training this doesn't happen maybe 10-20% I assume compared to matches 60%


What do you mean by a 5 shot rally? I don't think an open rally where I can expect 5 blocks from my trainingspartner is gonna be easy. I did do a few drills like starting close to the table going backwards (3x) and then going 3x forwards back to close to the table constantly looping diagonal. But I don't do this drill often. Maybe once in 2-3months.

I def see a big problem that seems to happen quite frequently is I go too much back and don't realize if they block that I have to step in. Even if I would loop those balls the ball is at the very falling stages and sinks before me. So I would need to go more into the ball. I have noted this down.

I think why you go back instead of standing your ground and attacking goes back to a lack of confidence attacking with the harder rubbers. And I completely get why this is happening. People won't talk about it much but loosing confidence in your shots is a challenge we all go through at some stage.

Regarding the drill, what you mentioned will help, just do it every session even for a few minutes. I put my water bottle at the side of my vision on the floor as a reference point to force me back forward. Yes I have noticed in your videos, inconsistent ball feeding. But for this drill, no blocking, topspin to topspin rally and say after the 5th ball in the rally you might notice you are back from the table so come forward and try and use it to take the ball early and apply pressure on your rally partner. If you need more balls to settle into the rally then do that, but the aim is to develop the visual understanding that you are back too far plus the footwork, timing and confidence to come back to the table.

Out of interest, do you do aggressive topspin to topspin training rallies?

If you don't, maybe something to add in. Start this with a strong focus on control and generating that high end top spin so the ball rips down. Then add the speed...and finish it off with a ego driven power contest to see who has the edge. It is great fun, forces control and power....and a little bit of footwork training without even having to think about it....you might develop a taste for it and go looking for it in matches instead of blocking

 

[Zezima]

Thank you for the detailed response.

I will reply to some points you mentioned.

So I watched the match. I am making some notes for the game by game:

1. first serve was long and he pushed and you used a backhand. This is risky unless you practice it a lot. Whenever you serve long to an opponent, your goal should be to use your forehand as much as possible unless you expect him to attack with his forehand and expose himself to a block.
2. second serve half long, got a push - the push popped up but you waited for it to come long and it didn't come long enough and you looped it upwards but because it wasn't heavy and you didn't wrap it, it went long. You need to know what you served, anticipate the popup and attack it while it is high.

2. It looked like heavy push. You can see he doesn't just lift the ball but activelly "cuts" it. Hard to tell how much backspin the ball had. I wanted to be "safe" and looped too much upwards. I still don't understand how that ball has no backspin. I gave him light backspin.

3. He serves short, you push long, he opens and there is a brief rally and he maintains control and wins the point.
4. He serves short without backspin, you push and pop the ball up and he attacks hard.

Receive Problem. I am down 0-2 I want to make "safe" receives. End up giving initiative to him. Here especially in the first set I should be more "active" with my receive. I should be like ok lets flick this or push it hard back in case I decide to push. Instead of just lifting the ball high back.

5. You do the same to him, he pops it up and you attack hard.
6. You do it again, you get the popup, you attack hard, he blocks but you attack the next ball into the net.
5-1 for him at this point.

6. Yep that point hurt. You can also clearly see from my elbow how hard I wanted that point. I was so stiff and in my Head I was looping the previous balls out so I was trying to loop lower. Clearly my head was in the previous points and under pressure of being down so many points early on.

7. He serves, you push, he pushes back, you open and miss into the net. This is a good point and a good miss.
8. He serves, you pop it up, he attacks but you defend and wait for your chance which comes and you attack and win the point.

7. no clue how that went into the net. Maybe my contact was too thin and the incoming balls speed to low (needed hip rotation or thicker contact I guess)
8. Same receive mistake as 4. Actually quite disturbing that I am not trying to receive these balls aggressively in the first set..

9. You serve, he pushes long, you push long, he attacks and misses.
10. You serve half long into the forehand and the ball pops up but he reads it as heavier backspin and misses his attack off the table.

10. I actually served long sidetopspin to the wide fh. He was getting too used to me serving to his backhand. So he kept trying to pivot. Sadly I didn't serve this serve as much even though I won the points instantly a few times. I was too much under pressure that if he expected this ball he would kill it immediately.

11. He serves without backspin, you push and pop it up, he attacks hard and wins.
12. He serves, you push long and high, he attacks hard and misses.

Terrible receives with both my bh and fh. My fh receive pisses me off more since it actually drifts long and I should aim to loop those. (I do it in the next set after realizing that)

5-7 at this point, you are down.

13. You serve reverse into the forehand with sidespin but no real backspin - he pushes and pops it up a little, you push and float the ball, he attacks hard and wins the point.
14. You serve slow half long that sits up off the table, he pivots and uses his forehand, you block, he loops again and you miss into the net and he wins the point.

13. I should just loop that ball with my backhand. I was in position but didn't trust my setup - defaulted to pushing.
14. That should be a long fast topspin serve to his bh xd. But no matter how often I train this serve I am just shaking in match situations. Also why I only do this serve a few times only to keep them guessing. Also didn't realize the spin change of his 2nd loop.

15. He serves, you push long, he opens, you block, he attacks harder but misses.
16. He serves short with some backspin but a bit high - you misread the height and don't make the right contact and miss the over the table loop,

Should have been 2 points to him. Again terrible receive.
The receive at 16. you can see I realize I need to change my fh receive and wait longer but still misscalculated and I felt a bit too rushed going into this ball. Nevertheless a win in my book atleast I changed and tried even though very late into this set.

17. You serve, he pushes, you push again, he pushes and pops up the ball, you attack hard to the forehand and he gets the ball back but you block while stuck over the table, he attacks and misses.
18. You serve lazy half long into the forehand area where he doesn't have to move - maybe trying to hit his middle but not rushing him and missing your target - he kills the serve.

17. Is an ok rally. I honestly don't deal with that block ever in my trainingsessions so kudos to me that I recover and block the ball back into the rally which atleast gives him the chance to miss which happened here. The Topspin was the finalshot I always tend to kill those types of balls and in Training it works but at this level they sometimes come back which I have to learn.
18. AHAHA this point. I was practising like 10min a day before this. It worked very well in the warmup that day against my equally skilled teammates so I thought ok lets try it out. I basically make it look as if its gonna be tomahawk sidespin serve but at last moment I change the spin direction. But sadly due to pressure it popped very high and not exactly at his elbow that I was aiming for ( I was more busy disguising it than quality)

7-11.

So if I were coaching you, I would tell you after that game that you need to shorten the serve and serve much less backspin. And also look for opportunities to attack his serve, you need to look carefully when when he is not adding backspin. You are pushing too much, stop being surprised by the return, prepare to attack as he isn't pushing short, he either opens or pushes long.

you mean short serves but not with backspin? like short nospin or short lighttopspin even?
Attacking his serves was also my goal going into the 2nd set. That and also stay lower and take his serves earlier to drop it short. You might have seen it in the 2nd set and moving forwards that my return doesn't pop too long and high anymore but shorter and also I attack his serves more with my fh. Let's see

 

[Zezima]

Game 2:
1. He serves long, you push. This is a big mistake. When someone serves long backspin, they need to be really good at attacking heavy topspin if you open on the serve. You do win the point as he misses the 5th ball from your block.
2. He serves, you do a great short push and win the point outright.

1. Even though I agree but you contradict yourself if you read your very first comment on the first point. It's the same ball back then you said it's risky and here you say I should have looped. This ball I didn't loop because I was focusing hard not to do an unforced error myself. If he gets the point he has to work for it. And this way I don't lose confidence in using my backhand topspin atleast. So starting safe.
2. Sadly he doesnt use this serve more often. I watched a tutorial on how to receive backhand serves. Even though I didn't get to practise it often in training (1 week only) I am happy I could succesfully apply it here.

3. You serve, he pushes, you push again (again, acting surprised at the result of your serve), he misses his opening.
4. You serve, get a popup and attack. He defends and wins the point but you played it properly, you do seem to be attacking to the forehand too predictably and need to move the ball around.

3. Not acting surprised but scared to use my bh loop. I am like don't change anything on my bh. I just don't feel confident in that match using it.
4. Agree only big mistake was moving in too much forwards. I really didn't want to give up the initiative but he did a good job and lobbed it closer to the white line and I moved in too much missing the timing as a result.

5. He serves, you attack the loose serve and win the point.
6. He serves, you push, he attacks, you defend the return and win the point. Not the way I would play it but at least you won the point.

5. This point is exactly what I had in plan going into the 2nd set. Wait a little longer then loop. 2nd Ball back to bh since I wanted to be less predictable. I was attacking his fh mostly. Definitely one of the rare points I needed to aim to do more often.
6. Again can't trust my bh loop so I had to default to push and block there. Also what I realized now is. If he had served more with topspin into my bh I think I would eventually get more confident in my bh loop but he didn't. Just find it interesting to note here.

5-1 you are up.

7. You serve long, he attacks, you defend and claim the initiative and win the point.
8. you serve heavy chop, he puts the ball into the net.

7. very good point I guess being up 5-1 made me more relax. You can clearly see how I use my body even into the shots. Also the first time I think seeing my Backhand topspin after forcing a weak bh block from him. And then the finisher with the fh.
8. No clue why I stopped serving heavy backspin. Had to experiment more with more different placement aswell to force him to push the balls back.

9. He serves long and high, you push off the table.
10. He serves half long, you open, the ball hit the net on his block and you scoop the ball, give him the initiative and he takes over and wins the point.

9. Surprised can happen
10. Again good fh receive. Unlucky net. If I was faster I think a sidestep maybe and then loop was possible.
Yeah I like how he stubbornly sticks to plan no matter the score. I admire him for that mentality. No matter how many unforced errors he did. He has one plan and he sticks to it from the beginning till the end.

11. You serve long and high and he also pushes it off the table.
12. You serve long, get a push and you loop the ball into the net.

11. I wasn't sure about this serve to his backhand. Since he likes receiving with the backhand. I was also afraid if he had choped downwards more that I would get a really ugly ball back into my bh. So glad that he misread the serve. Otherwise I was quite sure I had to take the risk and prob miss the loop myself. Also why I didn't serve this serve anymore I think.

8-4 you are up.

13, He serves, you open, his block hits the net and you miss your scoop shot.
14. He serves, you push long, he tries to drive the ball but hits the top of the net and out.

13. unlucky net. Tried to safe it somehow but I should just go fully into these shots trying to override whatever is on the ball not giving a fk. Especially at this score (8-4)
14. good read by me I tried to chop it short/half longish instead of long and fast. Worked well.

15. You serve short/halflong deceptive topspin, he pops the ball up and you win the point outright on your attack.
16. You serve long and net out.

15. Again a serve I should have done more often but did not for some reason. He likes to push receive and I am scared of him blasting these serves away even though he didn't even do it yet. -> Fear
16. At this score I wanted to get more confident with my long serve. At the last moment I get scared and try to add sidespin aswell so it won't drift long. I also tried to place a bit too much to the bh being afraid of him blasting through if I served right into his backhand.

17. He serves long, you push, he attacks and wins the point.
18. He serves, you push, he doesn't feel as confident that the ball is coming out so he pushes and you win the pushing rally when he pushes into the net.

17. He punishes me the first time in this set with the way I receive with my bh push.
18. He tried to do the same but this time he served slower so It was easier to keep it shorter for me aswell. He got afraid of that half long ball I hit 2 nets in a row apologize and move into the next set.

You win the game 11-7.

Again, you are playing well because you are winning on defense but you are not opening on loose balls and you are serving too long too often. Your short topspin has not been attacked so use it more often and let us see if he ever decides not to push it. Also stop attacking all the time into his forehand. you need to move the ball around a bit more.

Here my thoughts if you talked to me in the match:
Idk if you mean the reverse pendulum short/halflongish to his middle/fh? I don't think I served pendulum short topspin serve ever.
I agree that I attacked fh mostly. But at that point I would be like attack it doesn't matter where. It's not like he still won the points countertopspinning these. And mostly I stand parallel to the table or even have my right foot in front. So it's hard to loop to his backhand.

And commit to attacking the long balls, stop being surprised he is giving you long balls. IT is okay to miss because you have to learn what your opponent is putting on the ball and then adapt as the match goes on.

Yeah this is what I need to hear. I need to tell myself its ok to miss more. I feel too much pressure of doing mistakes when looping.

 

[Zezima]

Game 3:

1. You serve, you get a long push off a backspin serve and you push it back (again, what were you expecting having played the match so far), and he takes the initiative and attacks. While you play one good block, it is not enough to take over the point and he wins on the next shot.

I think I saw his movement served short to his fh. And then because he was out of position I didn't know where he was gonna push or what he was gonna do with that ball. Maybe I was expecting a short ball back either way I def didn't expect the long ball for some reason.

2. You serve sidespin, he pushes and pops up the ball, you spin it and he is on the defensive and you win the point ultimately.

Idk how I looped that one so well. Nice curve and on to the white line. Because he likes to go back he could still get it back on to the table with bad quality. So I kept attacking again with the bh, even though If I had been not so lazy with my legs I should take it with my fh instead. Attacking his wide bh so I get a more predictable ball back to my bh.

3. Next point was very ugly or a good rally depending on your perspective. He serves a very attackable serve, the serve is coming high enough that even if it isn't long, it can be attacked outright with a forehand or a backhand. You push it, he attacks and by some good defense, you manage to level out the point, but the fear of missing leads you to not attack on shots where you have the initiative and opportunity. You do play a good counterloop and one good shot, but ultimately, he misses when the initiative is ceded to him. For me what this point shows is that you need a fully adaptable forehand even more than a powerful forehand. You need someone to feed you lots of spin variation and placement variation without telling you what is on the ball, you just have to read it and play a topspin that keeps the ball on the table.

3. Uhh yeah that point. I think it was a good rally in terms of min/max. Just doing enough to keep the initiative and coming back from defense and get close to the table again. Funny thing about that rally was I saw him running back and I didn't feel confident ending the point with a forearm whipe over the table. So I dropped the ball back on his side twice and then I used a fake attacking motion to disturb him. I got a better ball back to attack. I think this point hurt his confidence and boosted mine a lot.

4. This was the best point you had played the whole match for the first two shots. He served, you opened, he blocked, you attacked again, he blocked and then you do that shot that I have criticized you for every time I see it and I wasn't surprised because you practice it and it showed up in a match (it has showed up before already) and you cede the initiative with that crappy forehand and lose the point. He chops the crappy forehand, but then you push rather than attack the chop and then he takes over. It is better to continue looping and miss than to do that crappy forehand against consistent players. Also, remember that a spinny loop vs chop places pressure on the opponent do do the appropriate counter.

4. Yeah good previous point meant I can confidently attack again. My head is free. You can clearly see how good and thick I hit that ball on the receive hand is not shaking aswell so full confidence. Good jump out even with the legs. Idk why my motion needed to go so much upwards (the ball landed well on the other side though) Then I have no fkin clue I guess I am just not used to topspin that often in a row since agianst anyone else in training point would have been over already. No explanation why I stopped. I def agree with that red marked statement. I don't know how to get it out of the system.

5. Long serve, he floats the push return, you miss the loop kill. Right play, you just didn't read the ball correctly or get close enough to do so.
6. Good serve selection even if I am not in love with the serve choice.

3-3

5. That hurt my confidence a lot. It's a ball I practised the most in training. Missing that ball fucked me up big time.
6. That's a serve that netted me a lot of points if I got it right and long. Not my favourite serve but it keeps guessing him instead of autopiloting his receive (then he gets too comfortable)

7. He serves, you push long, he opens, you defend, he misses.
8. He serves, you push long again, he opens but misses.

bad rallys 2 cheap points. Thank god I put a lot of backspin on my bh push atleast.

9. You serve, he pushes, the ball kicks up off the trajectory you predicted and miss.\
10. You serve, he opens, you block, he eventually cedes the initiative to you and you take over the point and you still do that crappy forehand. But I guess ultimately it says more about how you want to win points. You win the point because your forehand is too low energy for him to get back given how far off the table he is. So maybe it was smart short selection.

9. Yeah idk. One of the balls I practised the most lately.
10. Ok this time I have to say it was a smart choice given the game situation. Making him come closer to the table. Giving me a worse ball that I can attack better. I also liked how I positioned myself better and "ran" to the left side after I put the ball to his backhand. Otherwise I wouldnt have continued attacking with my fh.

11. He serves, you open with backhand, he blocks, the ball doesn't sit high but the opening loaded the ball enough that this is an attackable ball but rather than continue the attack, you just reach and block it with your forehand. He takes over the point and wins.
12. He serves into the table.

11. Wow I guess because I am up in score I use my backhand topspin receive and also because it drifts long and slower. The next ball dips in front of me and I jumped too much back.

Here a question on how to deal with this situation. One thing is I opened the rally with my return. But he did a soft block. I guess if the ball comes shorter I have to jump into the ball and loop that way instead of giving it up because I can't loop from the position I jumped back to?

7-5 you are up.

13. You serve, he pushes, you open, he blocks to your forehand, you reach and block with the forehand (this might be a foot orientation issue, or you need to learn to play your forehand out of multiple foot positions), he blocks twice and you finally attack when the blocks have become harder, while attacking the first block would have been much easier, but you miss your final attack.
14. You serve long backspin, he pushes, you push (again this is really not acceptable), he pivots and opens, you block down the line and take over the initiative and win the point.

13. Idk why but my backhand confidence seem to have come back. His block dips down shorter again. I don't feel confident looping that ball even though in training I could loop you that ball safe with spin but with slow speed.
This is definetly a big problem that I have to work on in the next practise sessions. This needs to be eliminated. This same problem has occured many many times over the course of the game. Agree that I should have attacked the first block. 2nd Block was faster when i already decided for the stroke. This is also the problem that I tried to fix with a softer rubber is that I thought I need to hit this hard to activate the sponge to give the ball topspin. If I go for a thinner contact I was afraid of looping it too much up. This ball would have cleared the net with a softer rubber in my opinion
14. To my defense this push of his was more active and faster than any pushes he did in this game. I was caught by surprise. And even without the surprise element I am not confident in looping that in this match only in training. I don't have any players pushing like that in training to be able to train that shot properly. I prefer looping slower pushes. Also one of the rare moments where I saw the gap in his fh so that was a good parallel block.

15. He serves half long backspin/nospin but you don't start your stroke low enough and don't create enough grip and put the ball into the net.
16. He serves long backspin, you push, he attacks and this time you block long.

15. I do start my stroke low enough. But I can't tell you what went wrong here. This is my problem with the rubber feedback on balls like that. It doesn't tell me what went wrong here. Because in Slowmo you can clearly see I go up. Maybe because I didn't use my forearm snap. I also don't really want to accelerate more than that. I want to put it on the table safely.
16. Yep very spinny opening

17. You serve lazy long topspin but he misreads it and loops it off the table.
18. You serve into the forehand, you get a push, you attack predictably into the forehand, he blocks, you block into his backhand, he blocks back to your backhand then you do a nice backhand kill down the line,

17. Service was so bad that it was good again xD
18. This same scenario occured earlier in the match. I don't know when but earlier in the set I didn't expect the long push and did my "scoop fh" I will call it this way now - Here I have the confidence and just loop without thinking about technique or anything but with confidence. Do a safe recovery shot with the bh and I go longline. My best bh shot in the game. -> So in hindsight this seems to be an anticipation and mental problem. Instead of being a technical problem/unknown scenario problem. I just don't do it...

10-8

19. He serves, you push, he pushes, you push and pop it up, he attacks, you defend and win the point.

I am very focused playing the ball very controlled waiting for a good opportunity but he makes a mistake before It gets to that point. Not proud but not too unhappy either.

11-8

If I was coaching you, I would warn you that the opponent is going to be more aggressive since has never lost to you before. The most important thing is not to rush and to continue to defend. Serve more short topspin. Move the opening attacks into his backhand you always attack with your forehand into his forehand. There are many opportunities to open on half long balls but since you have not trained that, we just have wait till later.

Again I don't remember serving short topspin. Maybe you meant start serving more short topspin.
Agree with the others. I guess telling me to stand half a step closer after I open up would be a helpful advice in that moment. It would reduce the amount of soft blocks ending up shorter on my fh side that I scoop. Not sure if I would be able to do it in the game immediately.

Thank you it was fun doing this. Doing this in writing style instead of talking also means that I absorbed this discussion better in my head and got more aware of my mistakes and what to watch out for in my future games.

 

[Zezima]

Pros absolutely do not stand still and only start moving once they're about to hit the ball.

Making late adjustments to the ball is not a bad thing. The problem is not making early movements to recover, reset, and put yourself in good position to take advantage of the next shot, so that you end up needing to suddenly lunge or lean and reach out for the ball at the last possible moment. If every millisecond counts, then you should take advantage of those milliseconds. In these videos, you're very frequently standing still for the entirety of the time between when the ball leaves your racket and when it reaches your opponent's racket, and often even until it's about to hit your racket again.

Your problem is a very common one, so this is not advice unique to you. The main reason many players around your level struggle with this is because they feel rushed -- mentally it seems like moving your feet will take a long time, and if you don't have that time then you need to simply react, which ends up meaning you lean and reach with your hand.

The fact is, you actually have plenty of time to move your feet if you start early. Once you realize you can do that, you can start to tie it together with mentally processing what's going on, or what @dingyibvs calls read-think-react skills. That's the foundation on which you can build tactics.



Look at how you moved in the point start starts around 5:12. In that rally, you make a forehand block to your opponent's backhand, and then quickly step to your left to enable yourself to play a forehand against your opponent's next shot. You actually start moving fairly early and get a chance at a strong forehand attack. Focus on trying to move like that after every shot on every point, i.e., pick up your feet. Even if you don't need to change your position relative to the table (which is rare), this is part of recovering and gathering your weight for the next shot. There are so many rallies in which your foot positioning and overall stance barely change from one shot to the next, even when you have plenty of time (for example, a few points later at 6:05).

Yes I am working on this. I just don't know where to move in the first few exchanges especially. The reason why I moved to the left there was because I played a good quality ball to his deep backhand and I was like ok he can only play to my backhand. I immediately knew that I can't wait in the fh side so I ran to the left. But most of the other times I don't know where to place myself and because of my reach I don't move at all.

I do drills that make me move after each shot. It definetly got better over the years and in this game even. But I agree it needs more work.

 

[Zezima]

I can't go too long ATM but to me the biggest most important and clear thing is simple :

In my humble opinion only, and I'm not a vet at all - I'd suggest you play WAY more aggressive, attack a lot more, play the ball much lower when defending.

I know these words come from good place but it's not like I like playing defense or having to react to balls. I also much prefer winning my points with a good attacking shot. I am also not defensive here but feel free to give suggestions on HOW TO ACHIEVE. Like how to overcome my fear or in other words how to play more fearless.

You have good shots at times but I'm not sure why you're playing so so passive. It's asking for trouble IMO.

I am trying to find that out with you all and how to fix it. It's gonna be a longer process.

 

[songdavid98]

Like how to overcome my fear or in other words how to play more fearless.

Hulk smash

Overthinking bad.

Hulk brain good.

 

[NextLevel]

Thank you for the detailed response.

I will reply to some points you mentioned.

2. It looked like heavy push. You can see he doesn't just lift the ball but activelly "cuts" it. Hard to tell how much backspin the ball had. I wanted to be "safe" and looped too much upwards. I still don't understand how that ball has no backspin. I gave him light backspin.

Receive Problem. I am down 0-2 I want to make "safe" receives. End up giving initiative to him. Here especially in the first set I should be more "active" with my receive. I should be like ok lets flick this or push it hard back in case I decide to push. Instead of just lifting the ball high back.

6. Yep that point hurt. You can also clearly see from my elbow how hard I wanted that point. I was so stiff and in my Head I was looping the previous balls out so I was trying to loop lower. Clearly my head was in the previous points and under pressure of being down so many points early on.

7. no clue how that went into the net. Maybe my contact was too thin and the incoming balls speed to low (needed hip rotation or thicker contact I guess)
8. Same receive mistake as 4. Actually quite disturbing that I am not trying to receive these balls aggressively in the first set..

10. I actually served long sidetopspin to the wide fh. He was getting too used to me serving to his backhand. So he kept trying to pivot. Sadly I didn't serve this serve as much even though I won the points instantly a few times. I was too much under pressure that if he expected this ball he would kill it immediately.

Terrible receives with both my bh and fh. My fh receive pisses me off more since it actually drifts long and I should aim to loop those. (I do it in the next set after realizing that)

13. I should just loop that ball with my backhand. I was in position but didn't trust my setup - defaulted to pushing.
14. That should be a long fast topspin serve to his bh xd. But no matter how often I train this serve I am just shaking in match situations. Also why I only do this serve a few times only to keep them guessing. Also didn't realize the spin change of his 2nd loop.

Should have been 2 points to him. Again terrible receive.
The receive at 16. you can see I realize I need to change my fh receive and wait longer but still misscalculated and I felt a bit too rushed going into this ball. Nevertheless a win in my book atleast I changed and tried even though very late into this set.

17. Is an ok rally. I honestly don't deal with that block ever in my trainingsessions so kudos to me that I recover and block the ball back into the rally which atleast gives him the chance to miss which happened here. The Topspin was the finalshot I always tend to kill those types of balls and in Training it works but at this level they sometimes come back which I have to learn.
18. AHAHA this point. I was practising like 10min a day before this. It worked very well in the warmup that day against my equally skilled teammates so I thought ok lets try it out. I basically make it look as if its gonna be tomahawk sidespin serve but at last moment I change the spin direction. But sadly due to pressure it popped very high and not exactly at his elbow that I was aiming for ( I was more busy disguising it than quality)

you mean short serves but not with backspin? like short nospin or short lighttopspin even?
Attacking his serves was also my goal going into the 2nd set. That and also stay lower and take his serves earlier to drop it short. You might have seen it in the 2nd set and moving forwards that my return doesn't pop too long and high anymore but shorter and also I attack his serves more with my fh. Let's see

So a couple of things here - I don't have to be 100% right - I am telling you how I interpret the match watching it. Someone else may see it differently. I am a better player than you are (even if aspects of your style could cause me problems with my mobility) and I am trying to tell you how someone with an offensive mindset sees your play. A higher level coach than me could give you very different advice. A defensive chopper could give you different advice. The point is for you to at least see how someone sees your play and who is markedly more offensive than you are.

Everyone is allowed to make mistakes and misread the ball. If someone pushes the ball and pops it up, then they felt there was backspin there that wasn't and that is what I mean by no backspin. Do realize that when you serve, the ball gains topspin as it goes through the table so it is quite possible for a serve that started as light backspin to have no-spin. The main thing is that he popped up the ball so he overestimated the spin. Your stroke didn't match the ball so you missed

But the beautiful thing about topspin is that once you read the ball is in a certain range, if your stroke is in a certain range that matches the ball, the ball will dip onto the table. That is why people with good acceleration and timing play topspin against as many balls as possible. For me, if I start the match missing, I continue missing until I start making it. There might be a few push exceptions if the ball is backspin and I push and the opponent's attack isn't overwhelming me. but I am an attacking player, I am okay missing until I lock into my opponent's spin. I have lost enough matches missing and making shots that in the end, a principled approach to selection is more important than doing stuff that wins one point but doesn't agree with how I play. But I have also trained to play that way.

You read missing very differently from me. You think it is a big deal. Losing points is not a big deal, nor is the consequence of losing a match. It is part of table tennis. The opponent has a right to win points too. Your attitude is that of a defensive player. They don't like to miss they are okay with their opponents hitting the ball at them and their reacting to the play. This is not a bad attitude, some players are extremely successful with it. But it is not the attitude of a fundamentally offensive player. Offensive players want the opponent to take the match from them. Defensive players want to counterpunch and hate making mistakes.

Some of my comments are based on how I think these plays will survive at a higher level. But I can't experience the speed or ball quality, so maybe I am not giving you enough credit for how you play. But honestly, when I play like this consistently at my level, people pivot and attack. Or I come under pressure from over the table backhand flicks. I get the ball looped at me when I serve long so I don't do it often. I tend to open on anything long or half long so people know I have that reputation and try to keep the ball short. Do I make it all the time? Of course not. But the odds are in my favor once I adapt.

It is okay to play the style you want to play if you are happy with it and it works for you. There are many good defensive players. Many good counterpunchers. In fact, I used to be a blocker with counterpunching offense up until maybe 2015 when I became largely more offensive after a lot of forehand work. In fact, I could see aspects of what you do being reasonably good if you can maintain them at higher levels though it is harder to maintain them at higher levels.

 

[songdavid98]

Its not that I cant hit the ball hard its the fact that I need to know according to the incoming ball how hard I am allowed to hit to activate the sponge without risking hitting too much and breaking my form.

Better to activate the sponge all the time
Better to hit hard all the time.
Better to break form.
You should just care about the swing path and racket angle.

 

[songdavid98]

2. It looked like heavy push. You can see he doesn't just lift the ball but activelly "cuts" it. Hard to tell how much backspin the ball had. I wanted to be "safe" and looped too much upwards. I still don't understand how that ball has no backspin. I gave him light backspin.

Your light backspin is main reason for his light backspin.
His timing is late too.
His cutting speed is slow too.

Combine everything together, the ball isn't very spinny.

I like this kind of question.
These questions are very important.
Please ask more of these kinds of questions.