Does Hl5 need to use the hurricane 3?

[Archosaurus]

Nice theory, but incomplete. The cracking sound means the characteristics of the blade are taking over, yes, but that doesn't mean it makes the quality of the shot worse. Very simply put, if you use more of the blade for speed, you can make use of the rubber contact more to generate spin. Bottoming out isn't a hard performance ceiling.

Not being able to bottom out a specific rubber could be due to hardness, but is also dependent on the blade, as well as the type of contact that is optimal for that rubber. Especially between tacky and bouncy rubbers, the finesse of their optimal contact is just different.

Once an elastomer is compressed about 65-75%, it stops being an elastomer and becomes part of the installed stiffness. It's not contributing any more performance the harder you hit with it. The topsheet also becomes less effective every unit of load you put into it due to load sensitivity. For max spin within a certain load, you'd want to maximize sponge and topsheet hysteresis*, which means not bottoming out.

EDIT: To be precise, further load stops acting as an elastomer. It doesn't mean the spring force is just gone. It's going to be pretty much solid~ at that point, though.

 

[Tyce]

Thing is, you're not just maximizing spin. You want to have maximum quality, which is the combination of speed and spin.
Any speed in this equation that you can deliver with the blade, does not have to be delivered by the release of energy stored in the rubber. Instead that energy can be released to the ball in the form of spin.

With a non tacky rubber, you want a high amount of lateral (well more tangential in reality) preload at the highest point of compression, and have the ratio of exit speed to tension unload be optimal.

Your stroke, for maximum spin, should be optimised for maximum stretch of the topsheet, meaning a short, high peak of acceleration.

With a tacky rubber, in theory, the biggest difference is that the energy preload using tension of the topsheet is slightly less, and the element of rolling contact is more prominent.

Your stroke, for maximum spin, should be optimised for a prolonged, pressing contact.

Failing to bottom out a (mostly) European style rubber when the same person can reliable bottom out tacky rubbers sounds like they are using a more pressing type of contact rather than a high short peak.
The sensation of the ball leaving before they are done with the stroke supports that fact.

 

[Archosaurus]

Thing is, you're not just maximizing spin. You want to have maximum quality, which is the combination of speed and spin.
Any speed in this equation that you can deliver with the blade, does not have to be delivered by the release of energy stored in the rubber. Instead that energy can be released to the ball in the form of spin.

With a non tacky rubber, you want a high amount of lateral (well more tangential in reality) preload at the highest point of compression, and have the ratio of exit speed to tension unload be optimal.

Your stroke, for maximum spin, should be optimised for maximum stretch of the topsheet, meaning a short, high peak of acceleration.

With a tacky rubber, in theory, the biggest difference is that the energy preload using tension of the topsheet is slightly less, and the element of rolling contact is more prominent.

Your stroke, for maximum spin, should be optimised for a prolonged, pressing contact.

Failing to bottom out a (mostly) European style rubber when the same person can reliable bottom out tacky rubbers sounds like they are using a more pressing type of contact rather than a high short peak.
The sensation of the ball leaving before they are done with the stroke supports that fact.

Simulations and slowmo doesn't seem to confirm a lot of this. What is your source?

The main spin contribution is just tangential force in respect to the CG. Largely a function of mu * normal load and some pimple geometry stuff. There is no time to accelerate at all, the contact time is sub ms.

EDIT: By the way, tackiness can be represented as adhesion, which is an extremely high mu close to 0 load. The effect seems to be close to 0 in powerful shots, apart from an offset downwards in normal load depending on the amount of adhesion. It's relatively significant still due to the extremely low loads of course, but adhesion is also very low relatively. I doubt it's hundreds of newtons or anything like that.

 

[Tyce]

Simulations and slowmo doesn't seem to confirm a lot of this. What is your source?

Unfortunately I am limited to experience, coaching and the endless depths of internet brains with varying quality.
I would love to see detailed super slowmo footage of actual ball contact showing the way the ball and rubber is impacted. Please do share if you have this!

The main spin contribution is just tangential force in respect to the CG. Largely a function of mu * normal load and some pimple geometry stuff. There is no time to accelerate at all, the contact time is sub ms.

If that's true, then it shouldn't matter if you executed a stroke with an even speed, or use a sudden acceleration. But it does in practice. Accelerating through the moment of contact, however short it may be, will force the ball on the rubber longer, however short that may be. But yeah a much more important factor for acceleration over even speed is that a shorter, more explosive action results in a higher racket speed at the moment of impact.

 

[Archosaurus]

If that's true, then it shouldn't matter if you executed a stroke with an even speed, or use a sudden acceleration. But it does in practice. Accelerating through the moment of contact, however short it may be, will force the ball on the rubber longer, however short that may be. But yeah a much more important factor for acceleration over even speed is that a shorter, more explosive action results in a higher racket speed at the moment of impact.

It probably matters a little, but you should separate 1st order, 2nd order, 3rd order etc. effects.

In practice producing an acceleration means your contact velocity is higher. You can't really produce bat velocity without one anyway.

There's not a ton of slowmo enough video existing, even thousands of FPS is too fast, but I'm pretty sure I've seen one video where a sheet was put onto a solid surface and a ball shot at it then filmed.

 

[ber]

you don't need to. I boost my H3s once and play until it's dead, you only reboost when you peel it off.

I got a question, does Chinese tacky rubber shrink? and does booster expire?

 

[ber]

It's also very important that the side tape matches your shoes brand...

don't think I'm able to find mizuno edge tape here

 

[Archosaurus]

I got a question, does Chinese tacky rubber shrink? and does booster expire?

Anything boosted will generally shrink if you re-glue it. I've even had a years old Focus 3 sheet shrink after I re-glued it just now. Will be interesting to see if Hurricane 3 Neo also shrinks if reglued after years old.

Boosters will lose their effect within a few weeks to maybe a month.

If you're completely new to tacky rubbers, I wouldn't boost just because of the hassle. Just about all of the modern models come lightly pre-boosted anyway and will be fairly representative for a few months.

 

[dingyibvs]

All that means is that you're not bottoming the sponge. It's better for performance not to; you basically run out of sponge performance once you do, and it's not like the topsheet can be much more hysteretic after that, you're mostly relying on the load sensitivity of the compound.

Probably ideally you would barely not be able to bottom the sponge on your strongest stroke and the sponge would be ideal for you.

Of course the surface tension does affect it and the spring sponge in the Tenergy acts a bit like a parallel spring so it's more complicated than that, but I would not worry about leaving performance on the table just because the vibration and sound is different.

Doesn't really make sense how I would bottom out blue sponge H3N and D09c but not D05 and DNA Pro.

 

[dingyibvs]

I got a question, does Chinese tacky rubber shrink? and does booster expire?

Generally they don't shrink, they actually expand, at least when I boost it. When I reglue my H3, even when I don't reboost, I always need to cut off an extra rim of rubber. Most other rubbers shrink though, even D09c. When I reglue D09c, which I don't boost, there's always a rim of blade showing. ESN rubbers shrink far more.

 

[dingyibvs]

Once an elastomer is compressed about 65-75%, it stops being an elastomer and becomes part of the installed stiffness. It's not contributing any more performance the harder you hit with it. The topsheet also becomes less effective every unit of load you put into it due to load sensitivity. For max spin within a certain load, you'd want to maximize sponge and topsheet hysteresis*, which means not bottoming out.

EDIT: To be precise, further load stops acting as an elastomer. It doesn't mean the spring force is just gone. It's going to be pretty much solid~ at that point, though.

Per spinsight measurements my spin (and speed) still have a lot of room to increase after I get the cracking sound, which is at ~120's RPS, while my max is in the 140's against block. My opponents certainly feel the difference as well.

Look, your points are not new at all, it's been debated on this forum ad nauseum. My stance on this has always been that if the science doesn't match up with experience, then it may not necessarily be that the experience is an illusion, but simply that our scientific understanding is incomplete. If you cannot explain how gravity exists, it doesn't necessarily mean that gravity is an illusion, it just means your understanding of gravity is incomplete.

 

[Yurifi]

I tried HL5 with several rubbers:
- Hurricane 8
- Nittaku Hurricane 3 (basically provincial version)
- Hammond Z2
- Dignics09c
- Rasanter C53
- Nuzn50
- Rakza Z

blade felt kind of numb with both Hurricanes (and I used them on HAL and TMXi previously, where they were really good). Nuzn50 and Rakza Z were just too pingy, to bouncy. Hammond Z2, D09c and aRC53 were all amazing, except when I put aRC53 on both sides, it killed the blade unfortunately. zero feel. didn't know when I hit the ball, how I hit it ...

 

[Archosaurus]

Per spinsight measurements my spin (and speed) still have a lot of room to increase after I get the cracking sound, which is at ~120's RPS, while my max is in the 140's against block. My opponents certainly feel the difference as well.

Look, your points are not new at all, it's been debated on this forum ad nauseum. My stance on this has always been that if the science doesn't match up with experience, then it may not necessarily be that the experience is an illusion, but simply that our scientific understanding is incomplete. If you cannot explain how gravity exists, it doesn't necessarily mean that gravity is an illusion, it just means your understanding of gravity is incomplete.

Spin and speed can increase until the topsheet's performance limit where it saturates and reverses trend, which is probably far beyond human limits. It's just very inefficient to get there. Pros do 170RPS easily, but the performance limit is probably more like 1000+.

Speed can increase on flat hits until the failure point of the blade, which is obviously far beyond human limits. It's not going to decrease just because the sponge is solid and acts as part of the installed stiffness. It just means it's solid.

Nothing's contradicting here, some people just lack either the practical or theoretical language, so there is a misunderstanding of what's even being said.

Doesn't really make sense how I would bottom out blue sponge H3N and D09c but not D05 and DNA Pro.

You're probably bottoming them all out to be honest, but the sound part isn't something I can really comment on. Probably the load transfer distribution and internal damping contributes to if it cracks or not. Which is why I said to not focus on it.

EDIT: I guess I should have said "not bottoming out the sponge as rapidly". I'm sure the H3N and probably D09c sponges are initially denser, but it doesn't mean they're as springy or have as much hysteresis at high deflections. The ramp change could also contribute to it; it's probably not "just" the sponge bottoming and "the wood making the sound".

I've also experienced this where sponges that should be soft and bottom easily don't really crack, even on wood blades, even if the sponge is clearly softer even to the fingers.

 

[dingyibvs]

Spin and speed can increase until the topsheet's performance limit where it saturates and reverses trend, which is probably far beyond human limits. It's just very inefficient to get there. Pros do 170RPS easily, but the performance limit is probably more like 1000+.

Speed can increase on flat hits until the failure point of the blade, which is obviously far beyond human limits. It's not going to decrease just because the sponge is solid and acts as part of the installed stiffness. It just means it's solid.

Nothing's contradicting here, some people just lack either the practical or theoretical language, so there is a misunderstanding of what's even being said.



You're probably bottoming them all out to be honest, but the sound part isn't something I can really comment on. Probably the load transfer distribution and internal damping contributes to if it cracks or not. Which is why I said to not focus on it.

You're probably right that the sound probably doesn't necessarily indicate anything related to performance, but IMO it can be a very useful feedback to the user, especially one who is still learning. When it's present, it lets me know the quality of my contact, which is a very useful real time information when you're trying to improve.

 

[Archosaurus]

You're probably right that the sound probably doesn't necessarily indicate anything related to performance, but IMO it can be a very useful feedback to the user, especially one who is still learning. When it's present, it lets me know the quality of my contact, which is a very useful real time information when you're trying to improve.

Yes, that's true. At least you know you've crossed some kind of threshold. I'd just be wary of relying on it that much when you're more advanced. Just because it cracks doesn't mean you're out of juice in practice.

At least in my experience, the highest quality contacts I've made don't sound spinny at all, and just sound like I'm flathitting, but the ball will try to climb up the walls and bounces damn near horizontally. I can probably generate a higher spin to speed ratio with a finer contact that sounds more airy, but the absolute spin is clearly not as high.

 

[ber]

I tried HL5 with several rubbers:
- Hurricane 8
- Nittaku Hurricane 3 (basically provincial version)
- Hammond Z2
- Dignics09c
- Rasanter C53
- Nuzn50
- Rakza Z

blade felt kind of numb with both Hurricanes (and I used them on HAL and TMXi previously, where they were really good). Nuzn50 and Rakza Z were just too pingy, to bouncy. Hammond Z2, D09c and aRC53 were all amazing, except when I put aRC53 on both sides, it killed the blade unfortunately. zero feel. didn't know when I hit the ball, how I hit it ...

Ah i see, going to keep z2 on my wishlist. What would be ideal for backhand rubber ( kind of rubber that gives the opponent pressure )? Going to remove rakza z from the wishlist ig

 

[ber]

Generally they don't shrink, they actually expand, at least when I boost it. When I reglue my H3, even when I don't reboost, I always need to cut off an extra rim of rubber. Most other rubbers shrink though, even D09c. When I reglue D09c, which I don't boost, there's always a rim of blade showing. ESN rubbers shrink far more.

Yep esn rubber shrink far more compared to their original size, is there any tacky rubber or sort of the h3 feeling without boosting? Because im not very keen in boosting rubber everytime they die

 

[ber]

Anything boosted will generally shrink if you re-glue it. I've even had a years old Focus 3 sheet shrink after I re-glued it just now. Will be interesting to see if Hurricane 3 Neo also shrinks if reglued after years old.

Boosters will lose their effect within a few weeks to maybe a month.

If you're completely new to tacky rubbers, I wouldn't boost just because of the hassle. Just about all of the modern models come lightly pre-boosted anyway and will be fairly representative for a few months.

Ah okay

 

[longle]

I got a question, does Chinese tacky rubber shrink? and does booster expire?

usually booster says: effective for 1-2 months. Many people will follow and peel it off to reboost after that period. But I followed an ex CNT's tips and feels my rubbers still good for 3 months without reboosting

 

[dingyibvs]

Yes, that's true. At least you know you've crossed some kind of threshold. I'd just be wary of relying on it that much when you're more advanced. Just because it cracks doesn't mean you're out of juice in practice.

At least in my experience, the highest quality contacts I've made don't sound spinny at all, and just sound like I'm flathitting, but the ball will try to climb up the walls and bounces damn near horizontally. I can probably generate a higher spin to speed ratio with a finer contact that sounds more airy, but the absolute spin is clearly not as high.

Well of course, you can objectively generate more spin by hitting into the racket more. My spinniest brush loop can barely touch 130 rps, but my regular loops are consistently in the mid 130's and can touch the mid-140s. And yes, it's a threshold, a threshold where you begin to generate the optimal spin/speed ratio, not the end. So no, of course I wouldn't think that I'm out of juice, I just getting started. In fact, I made my statement AGAINST your assertion that the rubbers are bottoming out.