New setup (moving into carbon)

[Anarki]

Hello

I would like to discuss here my plan about new setup for me. Currently i have Sanwei Acumulator S (allround blade) + Tibhar Evolution FX-S (2.0mm) on FH and Tibhar Evolution FX-P (2.00 mm) on BH. This setup was/is great and it helped me to improve my skills well ( i am something between beginner and intermediate ,maybe intermediate hard to say). I like to play faster and aggressive top spins and flicks. Now i feel i could handle a faster setup which was my goal before. During my training sessions i have tried some carbon blades or faster rubbers (MX-P for example) and i felt pretty fine ,but i would like to try something else.

Tibhar Felix Lebrun Hyper Carbon - seems to be very good blade with inner carbon so it will be more "safe" for me to have some control , i would like to stay with this blade for the future (like for years)

Rubbers - Tibhar K3 Hybrid FX (both sides) - i would like to try some sticky rubbers with more speed , i would choose FX version to not get so much "jump" from my current setup, so i would have something stickier and also faster but not too much.

I know it is maybe expensive setup but money doesnt play role now. (i am not bragging , but i have no problem to spend money on my only hobby )

Thanks for advice

 

[Archosaurus]

If you have the money, then spend on what you like and judge it for yourself. If it's hard to control; just go towards more control.

 

[Anarki]

If you have the money, then spend on what you like and judge it for yourself. If it's hard to control; just go towards more control.

thank you for the advice, i mentioned it only that people could focus on the setup regardless on money , i didnt mean it like i would have infinity budget

 

[Archosaurus]

thank you for the advice, i mentioned it only that people could focus on the setup regardless on money , i didnt mean it like i would have infinity budget

Going to a higher sponge thickness on the same covering could also be an option. 2.2mm will be noticeably more spin sensitive (most of the time, I haven't tried FX-S) but it will also allow you to generate more spin and it will be faster. If you just need something familiar but with a bit more kick, it's a real option.

 

[Anarki]

Going to a higher sponge thickness on the same covering could also be an option. 2.2mm will be noticeably more spin sensitive (most of the time, I haven't tried FX-S) but it will also allow you to generate more spin and it will be faster. If you just need something familiar but with a bit more kick, it's a real option.

hmm interresting , i have never think about this option , it is rly so different on the same rubber ? And what about the blade i mentioned?

Thank you for response

 

[Archosaurus]

hmm interresting , i have never think about this option , it is rly so different on the same rubber ? And what about the blade i mentioned?

Thank you for response

Empirical testing suggests that at flat impact angles it's mostly just slower and the arc is different by a little bit, because it changes the effective coefficient of restitution.

At angled impact angles however the difference can be many degrees of throw angle difference due to spin sensitivity differences, and I'm sure it changes when you actively swing into the ball and make your own spin too.

It's not always easier, but it's different, and it should be faster and spinnier if thicker.

I don't know about the blade.

 

[jk1980]

given that you play a pretty soft forehand rubber on an ALL blade does not indicate you being ready for a faster and stiffer blade with a harder rubber. The only thing that will happen is that you will create less spin and less spin means less margin for error, more balls overshooting the table.
It would be reasonable enough to play harder rubbers on your current blade to increase the speed, because in my experience you would need to soften your rubbers on a harder/stiffer blade to get similar spin, but a softer rubber than FX-S is hard to find if you want a "performance" branded rubber.

Also remember that the table tennis journey of a beginner is a progressive one which will afford you to learn each technique after the other depending on how your actual matches look like. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you would win more if your shots were just a little faster.

At the beginning of my journey i also thought "who needs to know how to block or counter ? i will simply only learn top spin and that will be enough". So when very much in the beginner state i thought "if i just learned to forehand loop the long pushes of the opponent, i will surely win all the time", so i learned to forehand loop backspin balls, now a few people i won against with this, but some were able to block decently, so after my first loop i was out of position and lost the point. Then i thought "oh, if i just learned to loop the blocked topspin balls harder", so i learned that and hey, again a few more opponents where defeatable by this. Now we get into the region where people can not only block but also loop themselves. I struggled to return very spinny opening loops against Frank, so after reviewing the match footage i thought "if i just could block those spinny loops, i would surely win against him" and 8 month later i played him again and blocked 80% of his loops onto the table, but hey .... i did not win, because he looped again after i blocked.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking just because your "mistake x" that needs fixing will lead to you winning against opponents already. It might make it harder for them to win if you fix the mistake but you probably did not "max out" what the opponent can actually do.

Depending on your own ideal way of playing that might evolve get your technique and execution right first before you upgrade.
Can you reliably loop strong backspin, counter loop topspin, block regular topspin, push short and long, flick forehand and backhand ? if you don't and you are going the "faster equipment" route now you will just develop into a one trick pony at best being outplayed by 80 year old grandpas who find your weaknesses quickly.

 

[Anarki]

given that you play a pretty soft forehand rubber on an ALL blade does not indicate you being ready for a faster and stiffer blade with a harder rubber. The only thing that will happen is that you will create less spin and less spin means less margin for error, more balls overshooting the table.
It would be reasonable enough to play harder rubbers on your current blade to increase the speed, because in my experience you would need to soften your rubbers on a harder/stiffer blade to get similar spin, but a softer rubber than FX-S is hard to find if you want a "performance" branded rubber.

Also remember that the table tennis journey of a beginner is a progressive one which will afford you to learn each technique after the other depending on how your actual matches look like. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that you would win more if your shots were just a little faster.

At the beginning of my journey i also thought "who needs to know how to block or counter ? i will simply only learn top spin and that will be enough". So when very much in the beginner state i thought "if i just learned to forehand loop the long pushes of the opponent, i will surely win all the time", so i learned to forehand loop backspin balls, now a few people i won against with this, but some were able to block decently, so after my first loop i was out of position and lost the point. Then i thought "oh, if i just learned to loop the blocked topspin balls harder", so i learned that and hey, again a few more opponents where defeatable by this. Now we get into the region where people can not only block but also loop themselves. I struggled to return very spinny opening loops against Frank, so after reviewing the match footage i thought "if i just could block those spinny loops, i would surely win against him" and 8 month later i played him again and blocked 80% of his loops onto the table, but hey .... i did not win, because he looped again after i blocked.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking just because your "mistake x" that needs fixing will lead to you winning against opponents already. It might make it harder for them to win if you fix the mistake but you probably did not "max out" what the opponent can actually do.

Depending on your own ideal way of playing that might evolve get your technique and execution right first before you upgrade.
Can you reliably loop strong backspin, counter loop topspin, block regular topspin, push short and long, flick forehand and backhand ? if you don't and you are going the "faster equipment" route now you will just develop into a one trick pony at best being outplayed by 80 year old grandpas who find your weaknesses quickly.

Hello
Thank you for your response , i appreciate it. Your advice makes a sense , i know i need to practice a lot and develop my skills, as i can say i am able to do things you listed

1.) Loop strong backspin - it depends but i am able to
2.) counter loop topsin - most of the time yes ,but also depends on the oponnent
3.) block regular topspin - yes
4.) push short and long - most of the time yes
5.) flick forehand - i am struggeling , flick backhend - most of the time yes

I am trying to develop all skills and also i am working on my footwork and my possitioning
Most of the time i am playing against those grandpas but they are rly skilled , i can see they are (reasonable by age) lacking footwork and almost all my points come from positioning and not force ( they are struggeling to move fast from the side to side , but they are able to return everything).

Sometimes i play against younger players ,and i am enjoying it more , because the play is faster and "modern" which i prefer.
I am little bit confused you said "

given that you play a pretty soft forehand rubber on an ALL blade does not indicate you being ready for a faster and stiffer blade with a harder rubber.

what could indicate it? i am playing slower setup because it was my first setup (and i want to change it) and i feel like i could handle something faster ( i have tried some setups in the club where i play, they have mostly MX-P with some off blades).

I would like to go for some faster blade , but i would like to keep it for long time , and change only rubbers.
It doesnt needs to be carbon for 100% , i heard that felix inner carbon is activated only by hitting stronger , so by the short returns is it woodlike , which is advantage i think if someone doesnt play carbon before , compering to the outter carbons that are faster but with very low control.

Thank you

 

[jk1980]

let me spell it out in very generalized terms:
I assume that your level of play does not change between the current setup and your faster setup.
Any rubber and blade combination requires you to generate acceleration X to create spin Y.
Let's say your arm/hand acceleration is 50 km/h and you get 100 rps on your loop with your current setup. In the best case scenario even if you had acceleration of 70 km/h you would also get 100 rps because you use your rubber to its maximum.
If you just switch to harder rubbers your acceleration of 50 might only get you 80 rps on your loop.
If you switch the blade to something stiffer/faster and keep the soft rubber you might get 90 rps with your 50 km/h acceleration.
If you switch to harder rubbers and a harder blade you might end up with only 70 rps for your loops and that is where you would most probably wont be able to lift backspin anymore. You will change your technique to lob the ball back instead of actually looping backspin balls.

These values for acceleration on spin are ficticious and should just illustrate that for harder rubbers you need more acceleration to get the same spin. Is it possible to get more spin out of harder rubbers ? yes, for sure, but most likely your acceleration and technique would need to be way better. Getting more spin with faster/stiffer blades is to me knowledge not possible, because the blade basically minimizes the amount of time your rubber can hold the ball to spin/grip it.

 

[Sriver1]

I would recommend a Hurricane acB blade. Glue your rubbers onto it and then come back and ask again once you have an idea of how it's working for you.

 

[Anarki]

let me spell it out in very generalized terms:
I assume that your level of play does not change between the current setup and your faster setup.
Any rubber and blade combination requires you to generate acceleration X to create spin Y.
Let's say your arm/hand acceleration is 50 km/h and you get 100 rps on your loop with your current setup. In the best case scenario even if you had acceleration of 70 km/h you would also get 100 rps because you use your rubber to its maximum.
If you just switch to harder rubbers your acceleration of 50 might only get you 80 rps on your loop.
If you switch the blade to something stiffer/faster and keep the soft rubber you might get 90 rps with your 50 km/h acceleration.
If you switch to harder rubbers and a harder blade you might end up with only 70 rps for your loops and that is where you would most probably wont be able to lift backspin anymore. You will change your technique to lob the ball back instead of actually looping backspin balls.

These values for acceleration on spin are ficticious and should just illustrate that for harder rubbers you need more acceleration to get the same spin. Is it possible to get more spin out of harder rubbers ? yes, for sure, but most likely your acceleration and technique would need to be way better. Getting more spin with faster/stiffer blades is to me knowledge not possible, because the blade basically minimizes the amount of time your rubber can hold the ball to spin/grip it.

Thank you for very good response
I understand it , i know i would need to change my technique ( or adjust it) after changing the setup , its logical , also my idea was change it to something i will keep for years , so it also force me to adjust technique ( or improve skills) to play with it at least i am playing now , but after that time i will gaining skill but with new setup ( which will be good enough to stick with for the years , at least the blade)
My idea was, that this blade has good quality and spectrum of playing (modern and fast TT) for the future, so as soon i will be able to handle it as better , because then i wont be changing the blade ( only rubbers maybe for slower/faster).

I see what you mean. Would you agree, if i would buy this new blade and use slow rubbers ( so the change will not be so big , even k3-FX is considered as slow) to get sticked with this blade and after longer time i will change the rubbers if needed?

Example : new blade felix lebrun + FX-P on both sides

I know changing the setup will cost me blood , i am not affraid to train harder , i just want to have opinion from you guys to not make a stupid step.

Thank you very much for response

 

[jk1980]

there are many great options coming from an ALL blade which could be tamed by softer/easer rubbers. Anything that would be in the range of OFF- would be sufficient enough for 10 years to come but still tamable by more forgiving rubbers. I don't know the felix lebrun blade, so i would stick to what i know. A solid 5 ply wood in the OFF- category like a Butterfly Korbel (or maybe even Primorac), Nittaku Acoustic, Butterfly Falcima perhaps at max a Xiom Hayabusa ZL Pro would be what i can image still giving you enough feel to progress more easily.
I would not recommend going full innerforce carbon since with the right rubbers and technique any of the OFF- blades are more than capable enough to overpower opponents.
Rubber wise i would try to keep the rubbers and switch them to the new blade if possible. That is the best comparison that you can get and you will see if your consistency in a match is good enough.

 

[Archosaurus]

let me spell it out in very generalized terms:
I assume that your level of play does not change between the current setup and your faster setup.
Any rubber and blade combination requires you to generate acceleration X to create spin Y.
Let's say your arm/hand acceleration is 50 km/h and you get 100 rps on your loop with your current setup. In the best case scenario even if you had acceleration of 70 km/h you would also get 100 rps because you use your rubber to its maximum.
If you just switch to harder rubbers your acceleration of 50 might only get you 80 rps on your loop.
If you switch the blade to something stiffer/faster and keep the soft rubber you might get 90 rps with your 50 km/h acceleration.
If you switch to harder rubbers and a harder blade you might end up with only 70 rps for your loops and that is where you would most probably wont be able to lift backspin anymore. You will change your technique to lob the ball back instead of actually looping backspin balls.

These values for acceleration on spin are ficticious and should just illustrate that for harder rubbers you need more acceleration to get the same spin. Is it possible to get more spin out of harder rubbers ? yes, for sure, but most likely your acceleration and technique would need to be way better. Getting more spin with faster/stiffer blades is to me knowledge not possible, because the blade basically minimizes the amount of time your rubber can hold the ball to spin/grip it.

Apart from all the terminology mistakes which is never a good look, I just don't agree with almost any of this, from experience nor from just a physics standpoint.

It's a lot more complicated than that and the sponge hardness has a bigger influence on the coefficient of restitution curve than the hysteresis curve as far as I can tell. You can't just assume he is going to get less spin because the sponge is harder. He may get more in all strokes; it really depends on a lot of things.

 

[jk1980]

Apart from all the terminology mistakes which is never a good look, I just don't agree with almost any of this, from experience nor from just a physics standpoint.

It's a lot more complicated than that and the sponge hardness has a bigger influence on the coefficient of restitution curve than the hysteresis curve as far as I can tell. You can't just assume he is going to get less spin because the sponge is harder. He may get more in all strokes; it really depends on a lot of things.

what did you fail to understand about this generalization of mine ? you now try to pick random scenarios where the general rule does not apply, wow. This is really more of a problem of yours trying to pick an argument here.

Of course we can be more specific, but it wont make understanding it more easy for the beginner. Of course an Andro R42 rubber can be more spinny for most people than a DHS PF4 which is significantly harder (in terms of sponge) even though the later even has a tacky topsheet. It still is true though that high level players probably will be able to create more spin with the PF4.

It's pointless to compare rubbers with different topsheets, so let's just go for a very simply rubber line that can show the capabilities.
The Nuzn line which is available in a wide range of sponge hardness 45, 48, 50 and 55. Nobody would disagree that the Nuzn 55 is probably the rubber a pro would get not only the most power but also the most spin out of.
The increased spin with harder sponges is not a function of the rebound effect of the sponge itself, but rather the ability to apply more force and acceleration when looping, without the sponge being to soft and letting the ball pass through the sponge and hit the blade which will bottom out the rubber and propel the ball forward instantly shifting the throw generated. To explain bottoming out in simply terms given a rubber/sponge hardness there is a threshold where more acceleration and power will not generate more spin when hitting, but rather only more speed.

I can already see where you are coming from and you are not the only one that read that very old Tiefenbacher study from 1994 and now thinks he knows it all. That study has so many flaws especially if you take into account nowadays material and possibilities to test these things way more thoroughly and properly. Go troll somewhere else or bring something useful to the table for the original poster.

i will not expand on a weak study that gets touted around like it's gospel again, because i already did that once and tbh if you don't have the intellect to see the flaws and inapplicability to modern table tennis thats pretty much on you. Just because there are very few studies (by todays standards even bad ones) does not make the only studies that exist true of even applicable for the rest of time.

There are good enough studies like Rinaldi et al. (2019) that do explain effects seen with different sponge and topsheet combinations when the ball hits with non perpendicular bounces and the spin created, but that really does not help the original poster with what he was looking for.

 

[Archosaurus]

what did you fail to understand about this generalization of mine ? you now try to pick random scenarios where the general rule does not apply, wow. This is really more of a problem of yours trying to pick an argument here.

Of course we can be more specific, but it wont make understanding it more easy for the beginner. Of course an Andro R42 rubber can be more spinny for most people than a DHS PF4 which is significantly harder (in terms of sponge) even though the later even has a tacky topsheet. It still is true though that high level players probably will be able to create more spin with the PF4.

It's pointless to compare rubbers with different topsheets, so let's just go for a very simply rubber line that can show the capabilities.
The Nuzn line which is available in a wide range of sponge hardness 45, 48, 50 and 55. Nobody would disagree that the Nuzn 55 is probably the rubber a pro would get not only the most power but also the most spin out of.
The increased spin with harder sponges is not a function of the rebound effect of the sponge itself, but rather the ability to apply more force and acceleration when looping, without the sponge being to soft and letting the ball pass through the sponge and hit the blade which will bottom out the rubber and propel the ball forward instantly shifting the throw generated. To explain bottoming out in simply terms given a rubber/sponge hardness there is a threshold where more acceleration and power will not generate more spin when hitting, but rather only more speed.

I can already see where you are coming from and you are not the only one that read that very old Tiefenbacher study from 1994 and now thinks he knows it all. That study has so many flaws especially if you take into account nowadays material and possibilities to test these things way more thoroughly and properly. Go troll somewhere else or bring something useful to the table for the original poster.

i will not expand on a weak study that gets touted around like it's gospel again, because i already did that once and tbh if you don't have the intellect to see the flaws and inapplicability to modern table tennis thats pretty much on you. Just because there are very few studies (by todays standards even bad ones) does not make the only studies that exist true of even applicable for the rest of time.

There are good enough studies like Rinaldi et al. (2019) that do explain effects seen with different sponge and topsheet combinations when the ball hits with non perpendicular bounces and the spin created, but that really does not help the original poster with what he was looking for.

Thanks for assuming a lot of things. It'd take hours to go over all the physics, but tl;dr is that you don't run out of spin just because the elastomer's further stiffness has become part of the installation stiffness once it bottoms, and the effective spin in a real stroke for any given sponge thickness and force/deflection curve with any given pimple geometry depends on a lot of things, namely the incoming speed and spin and load sensitivity curve of the compound.

The practical point is that you should try from harder to softer IMO; most people with somewhat normal strokes are gonna get better results on the harder end. Softer sponges are primarily there to slow it down for control reasons because most people have a more defensive backhand with lower reliability, and the soft sponge's more digressive nature allows higher efficiency (edit: pay attention to word choice: efficiency. It's still slower almost always for a given topsheet tension.) in very passive strokes.

 

[jk1980]

I will simply continue with the topic of this thread. If OP is going to use a harder and faster blade I would have recommended to get a softer version of his rubber, but to my knowledge there is no softer tibhar evolution series rubber than fx-s. He might use the same rubber on the new blade and find out that he is capable to play it on that blade as well, but if this is not the case it is going to be hard to get something very similar feeling to fx-s on his old blade

 

[Füty Imre]

I will simply continue with the topic of this thread. If OP is going to use a harder and faster blade I would have recommended to get a softer version of his rubber, but to my knowledge there is no softer tibhar evolution series rubber than fx-s. He might use the same rubber on the new blade and find out that he is capable to play it on that blade as well, but if this is not the case it is going to be hard to get something very similar feeling to fx-s on his old blade

not for this topic but i wanted to ask you, what do you like about the hurricane 8-80 on the acoustic? Do you boost it? Asking out of curiosity. I just got a brand blade after 4 years

 

[Archosaurus]

I will simply continue with the topic of this thread. If OP is going to use a harder and faster blade I would have recommended to get a softer version of his rubber, but to my knowledge there is no softer tibhar evolution series rubber than fx-s. He might use the same rubber on the new blade and find out that he is capable to play it on that blade as well, but if this is not the case it is going to be hard to get something very similar feeling to fx-s on his old blade

OP didn't say he wants something similar feeling, did he? He said he wants a faster setup with a tacky topsheet.

His current rubber is likely too soft to begin with; that's why he is changing. That's a 42deg~ Shore O rubber.

My current setup is around 53/48 Shore O, and I could go a bit higher on the backhand hardness. I'm not some super player; higher beginner or lower intermediate is probably accurate. Going softer just increases my injury risk, like how using Europe DF on the backhand gave me shoulder pain due to how slow it is and how large of a swing it requires, despite topsheet tensioning.

I can do slow, spinny shots all the same, despite the Young's modulus differing about +90% on the Moon Speed I'm using right now vs the Europe DF.

There's a good chance OP is similar or better skill to me judging by the descriptions; so what's the problem?

EDIT: Also, FX-P is 40.1 +-1 and FX-S is 42 +-1 Shore O. The sponges are effectively the same hardness; both are super soft. IIRC they differ in topsheet and pip geometry.

 

[jk1980]

not for this topic but i wanted to ask you, what do you like about the hurricane 8-80 on the acoustic? Do you boost it? Asking out of curiosity. I just got a brand blade after 4 years

I have tried a few H8-80 variants from 39' to 37' and even the Nittaku H8-80 power type and it served me well enough as a backhand rubber, but if i am really honest it was just a cheap chinese alternative to the Nittaku PK50 which i would have liked to continue playing much more, but that one got discontinued.
I was search for a very good short game, good tackiness and medium pace but good spin level.

I recently removed the H8-80 from my Backhand though and on my main blade i play glayzer 09c (still had it lying around) and on my backup blade i put a new FastArc C-1 on which i do like very much.

 

[Füty Imre]

I have tried a few H8-80 variants from 39' to 37' and even the Nittaku H8-80 power type and it served me well enough as a backhand rubber, but if i am really honest it was just a cheap chinese alternative to the Nittaku PK50 which i would have liked to continue playing much more, but that one got discontinued.
I was search for a very good short game, good tackiness and medium pace but good spin level.

I recently removed the H8-80 from my Backhand though and on my main blade i play glayzer 09c (still had it lying around) and on my backup blade i put a new FastArc C-1 on which i do like very much.

I actually never tried any nittaku or dhs rubber, but I will try my first hybrid (which probably is not even tacky) xiom omega 8 china, and to5 (I'v never used butterfly rubbers either, I actually got this one as a gift). I’m also stepping away from my beloved Nittaku Acoustic because it doesn’t provide enough speed away from the table. My next blade will be the TB ALC and I hope it will suit me well.