SP Carbon

[Egon]

In the patent application for Butterfly AL/ALC blades, it's explicitly stated the 2nd ply is Ayous.

Where's the evidence? Send a scan of the patent if you have one.

 

[Egon]

I would like to remind you that we have strayed significantly from the topic.

 

[SDC]

I don't care how many blades he made of his own design, what matters is how many original Timo Bol ALC blades he held in his hands in disassembled form. We also made quite a few blades, but I don’t intend to boast about it.
Once again, I say there are different points of view. I will only draw my own conclusions after personally examining this blade in its disassembled state or having official information from the manufacturer.

This is the closest thing you will get from an official information, as this picture came from Butterfly. If you cannot tell it is Ayous by that picture, I don't know what more to do for you. Like I said, I did disassemble a couple, but you don't even need to do so if you know what to look for, just need to look at the endgrain. Anyway, I don't intend to change your mind, it's enough for me to make things right with the rest reading this.

 

[golden_son]

 

[Topspinslinger]

So much information about two very used blades from trusted sources, a professional blade maker. Mail Butterfly or trust professional sponsored bty players for source.

 

[Faker]

So much information about two very used blades from trusted sources, a professional blade maker. Mail Butterfly or trust professional sponsored bty players for source.

Or just trust Sergio. I trust him more than BTY😉

Cheers
F-kr

 

[zeio]

My precious brain cells...

卓球用ラケット (Racket for Table Tennis)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH0639062A/ja

【００２３】また輸入材としてはアユースを使用する。

([0023] In addition, ayous is used as imported material.)

 

[Faker]

My precious brain cells...

卓球用ラケット (Racket for Table Tennis)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH0639062A/ja

([0023] In addition, ayous is used as imported material.)

Wooow

Cheers
F-kr

 

[golden_son]

My precious brain cells...

卓球用ラケット (Racket for Table Tennis)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH0639062A/ja

([0023] In addition, ayous is used as imported material.)

Not to put too fine a point on it (or continue getting off-track), but I don't see any reference to the patent being for the Timo Boll ALC; in fact, it reads as a fairly generic "how to make a lighter racket using thin layers of wood and polyarylate material". I'm not familiar with the Japanese word for koto but it doesn't appear to be written in katakana like アユース was; either they have another term for it in kanji, or the patent does not specify all the individual layers of a particular racket but rather a broader racket patent that includes ayous.

 

[Zwill]

In the patent application for Butterfly AL/ALC blades, it's explicitly stated the 2nd ply is Ayous.

2nd wooden ply 🫣

 

[Egon]

My precious brain cells...

卓球用ラケット (Racket for Table Tennis)
https://patents.google.com/patent/JPH0639062A/ja

([0023] In addition, ayous is used as imported material.)

We have a popular saying: "You hear the sound and don't know where it is."
This is a patent for blades with Arylate carbon from 1991.
Whereas the Timo Bol ALC went on sale in 2008.

 

[zeio]

2nd wooden ply 🫣

Why do you think it's referred to as 5+2 and 3+2?

In the patent, the sample constructions are referred to as 5A to 5D and 3E to 3H.

【００２６】なお各サンプルにおける「５」と「３］の数値は補強層を除く木質板のみの積層枚数を示している。

([0026] The numbers "5" and "3" in each sample indicate the number of layers of wood boards only, excluding the reinforcing layer.)

If you want to play that game, then the technical term should be crossband.

 

[zeio]

Not to put too fine a point on it (or continue getting off-track), but I don't see any reference to the patent being for the Timo Boll ALC; in fact, it reads as a fairly generic "how to make a lighter racket using thin layers of wood and polyarylate material". I'm not familiar with the Japanese word for koto but it doesn't appear to be written in katakana like アユース was; either they have another term for it in kanji, or the patent does not specify all the individual layers of a particular racket but rather a broader racket patent that includes ayous.

I explicitly stated that in my first post, "In the patent application for Butterfly AL/ALC blades," which is what a patent does, to be as vague and broad as possible. The patent application was filed in 9/1991 and Keyshot was the first AL blade released in 11/1991, whereas Viscaria is the first ALC blade released in 11/1993. Butterfly puts the TB ALC under the "ALCラケットの正統派/orthodox faction of ALC rackets" of Viscaria.

There is a table of 8 sample constructions that's missing from the one at Google Patents. For those samples, hinoki is actually used for all the other plies, but the fact that a specific claim that ayous is used means it's a defining element.

 

[Egon]

I explicitly stated that in my first post, "In the patent application for Butterfly AL/ALC blades," which is what a patent does, to be as vague and broad as possible. The patent application was filed in 9/1991 and Keyshot was the first AL blade released in 11/1991, whereas Viscaria is the first ALC blade released in 11/1993. Butterfly puts the TB ALC under the "ALCラケットの正統派/orthodox faction of ALC rackets" of Viscaria.

There is a table of 8 sample constructions that's missing from the one at Google Patents. For those samples, hinoki is actually used for all the other plies, but the fact that a specific claim that ayous is used means it's a defining element.

None of this has anything to do with the main topic or the composition of the Timo Bol ALC blade being discussed here.
But to expand on this topic, the Keyshot Light, we had for repair, does indeed have a central longitudinal layer of ayous, followed by two layers of red Arylate and two longitudinal layers of koto on the surface. Indeed, there is ayous, but that's completely different from what we're talking about.

 

[SDC]

None of this has anything to do with the main topic or the composition of the Timo Bol ALC blade being discussed here.
But to expand on this topic, the Keyshot Light, we had for repair, does indeed have a central longitudinal layer of ayous, followed by two layers of red Arylate and two longitudinal layers of koto on the surface. Indeed, there is ayous, but that's completely different from what we're talking about.

It has to do with the fact that there isn't a single ALC blade with a Limba medial layer (not that I can't recall, correct me if I wrong), so why would the TB ALC be any different? Is this proof? No, but it's an indicator. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Anyway I wouldn't consider it either, if I disregarded the "proof" you have showed against it, I also can't consider the ones supporting it. And I could cite many other sources, but what I trust are my eyes and my skills, and any decent woodworker would be able to tell Ayous from Limba by the endgrain. Here's one more Pic, the medullary rays are perfectly visible in this one.

 

[Egon]

It has to do with the fact that there isn't a single ALC blade with a Limba medial layer (not that I can't recall, correct me if I wrong), so why would the TB ALC be any different? Is this proof? No, but it's an indicator. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Anyway I wouldn't consider it either, if I disregarded the "proof" you have showed against it, I also can't consider the ones supporting it. And I could cite many other sources, but what I trust are my eyes and my skills, and any decent woodworker would be able to tell Ayous from Limba by the endgrain. Here's one more Pic, the medullary rays are perfectly visible in this one.

View attachment 42602

Let me reiterate that I'm not claiming that the cross-grain wood in the Timo Bol ALC blade is limba. I'm saying there are plenty of sources that provide this information. There's also you, who claims the opposite.
I'll also reiterate that it's important for me to have the original blade in disassembled form, so I can evaluate the wood with my own hands and eyes, or to obtain official information from the manufacturer.

 

[Egon]

Is this proof? No, but it's an indicator

You answered this question yourself.

 

[SDC]

Let me reiterate that I'm not claiming that the cross-grain wood in the Timo Bol ALC blade is limba. I'm saying there are plenty of sources that provide this information. There's also you, who claims the opposite.
I'll also reiterate that it's important for me to have the original blade in disassembled form, so I can evaluate the wood with my own hands and eyes, or to obtain official information from the manufacturer.

Yeah, but you did claim it... and when confronted with evidence you still doubting it. And yes, this is evidence, let me also reiterate that any decent woodworker would be able to tell the difference from Ayous and Limba by the endgrain. Ayous has medullary rays, Limba doesn't. The medial layer on that blade, that just so happens to be a TB ALC, has very visible medullary rays. If you are not able to see them, or you don't even know what they are, don't even call yourself a blade maker.

 

[Egon]

Yeah, but you did claim it... and when confronted with evidence you still doubting it. And yes, this is evidence, let me also reiterate that any decent woodworker would be able to tell the difference from Ayous and Limba by the endgrain. Ayous has medullary rays, Limba doesn't. The medial layer on that blade, that just so happens to be a TB ALC, has very visible medullary rays. If you are not able to see them, or you don't even know what they are, don't even call yourself a blade maker.

I don't need to call myself anything, but the fact that we make blades is a fact. And it's impossible to argue with facts.

 

[Egon]

Besides, you like some of our designs so much that you copy them.
Someone else might be upset about that, but not us. Take it, if you like it, we don't mind. But only design. You're good at it.
We reserve the internal structure for ourselves.