At What Point is an Upgrade from D09c to Z03 Justified on BH?

[Tyce]

Tyce choose your own poison: speed or spin?

The trend is now speed over spin.

I guess that's it right, I can't have both but my feeling tells me I'm always missing one of them.

 

[golden_son]

I think the idea of a "forgiving" rubber is all relative anyway. Compared to T05 or Dignics? Yeah, Rozena is more forgiving. And yet I overshot the table/blocked long more with Rozena than any other BH rubber I've used not named Tenergy or D05. It was fairly safe as a FH rubber, but on BH the Spring Sponge made it way more catapulty than R42 (a softer rubber) or Rakza 7 (a harder rubber). Spin sensitivity is a factor to consider, and Rozena feels fairly safe in that regard, but in my opinion non-linear bounciness is the #1 killer of safety, and that kind of predictability is what I expect out of something classified as "forgiving".

None of that is really on-topic, so I'll respond to the question in the subject with, "Don't let anyone tell you how to EJ. It's justified when you want to try it." 😁

 

[Metaxa]

A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to watch Gionis Pana training live here. As you know, he’s been playing with Zyre03 on his forehand for a few months now. It was remarkable that (given his age) he didn’t even need to make a fast, powerful movement to generate speed in his shots, which were extremely precise and seemed effortless. I didn’t find the spin particularly exceptional either when I followed the trajectory of his shots.

 

[NextLevel]

A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to watch Gionis Pana training live here. As you know, he’s been playing with Zyre03 on his forehand for a few months now. It was remarkable that (given his age) he didn’t even need to make a fast, powerful movement to generate speed in his shots, which were extremely precise and seemed effortless. I didn’t find the spin particularly exceptional either when I followed the trajectory of his shots.

Thats the part of Zyre 03 that is deceptive if you dont play with it. The spin is always much higher than the arc and speed communicate.

 

[merlin el mago]

I guess that's it right, I can't have both but my feeling tells me I'm always missing one of them.

Me too.

 

[merlin el mago]

I think the idea of a "forgiving" rubber is all relative anyway. Compared to T05 or Dignics? Yeah, Rozena is more forgiving. And yet I overshot the table/blocked long more with Rozena than any other BH rubber I've used not named Tenergy or D05. It was fairly safe as a FH rubber, but on BH the Spring Sponge made it way more catapulty than R42 (a softer rubber) or Rakza 7 (a harder rubber). Spin sensitivity is a factor to consider, and Rozena feels fairly safe in that regard, but in my opinion non-linear bounciness is the #1 killer of safety, and that kind of predictability is what I expect out of something classified as "forgiving".

None of that is really on-topic, so I'll respond to the question in the subject with, "Don't let anyone tell you how to EJ. It's justified when you want to try it." 😁

Thats the part of Zyre 03 that is deceptive if you dont play with it. The spin is always much higher than the arc and speed communicate.

Zyre 03 only have spin when you loop power top spin, no good for short or spinny low serves so only good for high speed serves as you can see looking videos from pros. So if your serves aren't an important role (and you are young and with good shape) of your game the rubber it's very good for all power fast attack players, also is very good for smash.

I agree with you NextLevel only to remark that the deception is done only when you do mid or power topspin, also the rubber isn't good for brush the ball.

 

[NextLevel]

Zyre 03 only have spin when you loop power top spin, no good for short or spinny low serves so only good for high speed serves as you can see looking videos from pros. So if your serves aren't an important role (and you are young and with good shape) of your game the rubber it's very good for all power fast attack players, also is very good for smash.

I agree with you NextLevel only to remark that the deception is done only when you do mid or power topspin, also the rubber isn't good for brush the ball.

I don't really agree, the feeling is different so all the shots have to be produced with somewhat different feeling from what you are used to with other Butterfly rubbers, so the first impression is usually that they are not possible because one is trying to produce them the same way. But I find very often with Zyre that if I just loop the ball (not trying to get any power or speed), the opponent is often surprised by a kick that they didn't see based on the fact they didn't think I was doing anything. I have learned over time to trust this kick and not too try hard to power everything.

 

[kindof99]

I have tried so many times with Z03, but still have not got a hint of how to use it properly. Z03 is not really an upgrade to D05 or D09C, but just a new rubber with different construction.

 

[zeio]

I have tried so many times with Z03, but still have not got a hint of how to use it properly. Z03 is not really an upgrade to D05 or D09C, but just a new rubber with different construction.

Use it how Togami does it, literally 七傷拳.

 

[merlin el mago]

I don't really agree, the feeling is different so all the shots have to be produced with somewhat different feeling from what you are used to with other Butterfly rubbers, so the first impression is usually that they are not possible because one is trying to produce them the same way. But I find very often with Zyre that if I just loop the ball (not trying to get any power or speed), the opponent is often surprised by a kick that they didn't see based on the fact they didn't think I was doing anything. I have learned over time to trust this kick and not too try hard to power everything.

One thing is your feeling and other the way the rubber made deception.

 

[merlin el mago]

Use it how Togami does it, literally 七傷拳.

Or Sora!!!

 

[foreright]

Thats the part of Zyre 03 that is deceptive if you dont play with it. The spin is always much higher than the arc and speed communicate.

I've recently switched (from MXP50 both sides) to D05 backhand and D09c forehand and would say that I find the same thing for the D09c - I've had multiple opponents / training partners struggle with the amount of spin and say exactly that - that there's more spin than it looks like either from the amount of effort I'm putting in or the arc of the ball. Anecdotally there's a couple of players in the club that I know use D09c on the forehand and I've always had to make a mental note that there's more on it that it looks like!

FWIW, in the context of this discussion, there's clearly no "progression" here as already said. All 3 are advanced rubbers with different properties. For me, I'm liking the D05 on the backhand - it's super easy to block with, very predictable - no unexpected stray super-bouncy shots like I would get with MXP, and has enough spin and speed to play extremely strong backhand loops and drives. The D09c is clearly spinnier, which was one reason for getting it in the first place and has more than enough power but you have to play "proper" shots with it which is the difference from MXP which is way more forgiving of bad / lazy technique. I've had a couple of sessions where I've been tired / not really up for playing and it's been a struggle!

 

[Oliverpool]

A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to watch Gionis Pana training live here. As you know, he’s been playing with Zyre03 on his forehand for a few months now. It was remarkable that (given his age) he didn’t even need to make a fast, powerful movement to generate speed in his shots, which were extremely precise and seemed effortless. I didn’t find the spin particularly exceptional either when I followed the trajectory of his shots.

If you can play relaxed with fast small counter strokes against loops and spin and block fast drives in front of your body, zyre is really a good rubber to play with. Basically aggressive against spin or speed. A small short counter against a strong spin from your opponent will return the ball that jumps back high or low against your opponent. Really hard to return. And a fast ball will be returned with interest where your opponent just feels starved of time. Basically fast and early timing is probably the sweet spot of Zyre. At least that is how I feel

 

[Archosaurus]

Define more forgiving

D09c is very forgiving in the short game, easy to play slow loops, insensitive to incoming spin.
Hurricane 3, same thing.
Put a sturdy blade behind it and you get a pretty forgiving setup in that regard.

Short game, slow to medium stuff, is in my opinion not all that easy to do with something medium and "sensible" like a Rakza 7. That stuff is bouncy and that makes me spray balls rather than putting in consistent placement.

And if I opt for a Rozena (which is the personification of "forgiving" according to Butterfly), the amount of quality I have to surrender in order to get that easy consistency honestly just makes me feel incapable of making a proper quality shot.

All rubbers are a compromise. The question is, which one do you like to work with?
- If you go softer for more control and easier spin, you get less clear ball feedback and bottoming to deal with.
- If you go harder for more feedback, you're going to be out of the activation window most of the time meaning there's a lot of work to put in.
- If you go medium, what you usually end up with is the worst of both. Muted feedback, bouncy, hard to control, activation window is a bit too high or too low so sponge can give a bit of kicking in when you don't want it to. Or even worse, when the activation window is too small you get that jump on low-medium power and bottom out as soon as you start really working on the ball.

Most medium rubbers feel like unpredictable, unreliable shit to me. Most softer rubbers feel incompetent and those that are good enough to put some strong spin on, are usually very jiggly in the short game.

I'd have to agree with this post's sentiment. It really depends what exactly you're doing.

I'm a really unbalanced example: I have no real limit to forehand sponge hardness within the options available, and harder is better, without sacrificing serve or dig spin at all. Harder is always more spin, more speed, more control, so I just max it out whenever possible. The typical advice to use 39A if you're a beginner was a complete waste of time for me and I hated it. Now I go as hard as possible, 41A or more; I'm sure I could use those fancy 43A Ma Long forehand rubbers just fine.

On the backhand I need to use a soft sponge or I will keep popping blocks long and not getting enough spin on my rallying strokes. Even if the rubber is really bouncy, if it has a soft enough sponge that I can put enough spin on the ball, I can use it. Dignics 05, Fastarc G-1 were usable, but the ideal for me is something closer to a beginner rubber, like the Moon Speed Soft I'm using now. However something too slow, like Mercury II, results in every shot going into the net, even if Mercury II is supposed to be "more controlled" than Dignics and Fastarc.

For a complete beginner who's been hitting for a couple months, it's probably true they should stick to really soft sponges so it's obvious when and how much the ball sinks into the sponge, but for anyone who's actually played a while, your mileage may vary.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I'm a really unbalanced example: I have no real limit to forehand sponge hardness within the options available, and harder is better, without sacrificing serve or dig spin at all. Harder is always more spin, more speed, more control, so I just max it out whenever possible. The typical advice to use 39A if you're a beginner was a complete waste of time for me and I hated it. Now I go as hard as possible, 41A or more; I'm sure I could use those fancy 43A Ma Long forehand rubbers just fine.

That's one of those things that might be true in theory but very far from the truth in real life unless you are 2800 or maybe even better. Most amateurs (I am not sure your level) using DHS 41 or harder will in fact lose shot quality on any shot where they aren't able to line up perfect timing and a full swing in the right direction and contact point of the ball, which is most shots in actual games. Arguably losing shot quality on those shots too unless you're extremely physically fit and can use that fitness to deliver the power into the ball with the right contact.

 

[Tyce]

That's one of those things that might be true in theory but very far from the truth in real life unless you are 2800 or maybe even better. Most amateurs (I am not sure your level) using DHS 41 or harder will in fact lose shot quality on any shot where they aren't able to line up perfect timing and a full swing in the right direction and contact point of the ball, which is most shots in actual games. Arguably losing shot quality on those shots too unless you're extremely physically fit and can use that fitness to deliver the power into the ball with the right contact.

This is one of the things where you have to feel it to believe it. My assumption is that many intermediate players that go to the 41-42 degree sponges on H3 are feeling the sponge kicking in and mistakenly think that it's the sponge bottoming out.
Not a weird assumption to make with dense sponges - the sensation is quite harsh compared to the fluffy porous units. The sensation of Orange Sponge engaging does kind of reverberate like a wooden blade can do (and the combination of Orange Sponge on a high vibration 5-ply is exceptionally loud).

I can't tell any of this applies to anyone without seeing them play, but I can tell for myself that I can basically play with the topsheet alone as if it is a complete rubber and I think (controversially so) that Blue Sponge is much easier to engage, mostly for the reason that the engagement of it feels more like a fluffy porous sponge engagement does.

 

[Archosaurus]

That's one of those things that might be true in theory but very far from the truth in real life unless you are 2800 or maybe even better. Most amateurs (I am not sure your level) using DHS 41 or harder will in fact lose shot quality on any shot where they aren't able to line up perfect timing and a full swing in the right direction and contact point of the ball, which is most shots in actual games. Arguably losing shot quality on those shots too unless you're extremely physically fit and can use that fitness to deliver the power into the ball with the right contact.

That's what I thought, which is why I went for the softer sponges, but it's not really true in practice. The ball has more spin and speed and I score more the harder the sponge. It even has more spin whenever I miss and net it, for example.

I dunno why people think you need to be 2800 to utilize a 10%~ harder sponge. It doesn't make any sense.

This is one of the things where you have to feel it to believe it. My assumption is that many intermediate players that go to the 41-42 degree sponges on H3 are feeling the sponge kicking in and mistakenly think that it's the sponge bottoming out.
Not a weird assumption to make with dense sponges - the sensation is quite harsh compared to the fluffy porous units. The sensation of Orange Sponge engaging does kind of reverberate like a wooden blade can do (and the combination of Orange Sponge on a high vibration 5-ply is exceptionally loud).

I can't tell any of this applies to anyone without seeing them play, but I can tell for myself that I can basically play with the topsheet alone as if it is a complete rubber and I think (controversially so) that Blue Sponge is much easier to engage, mostly for the reason that the engagement of it feels more like a fluffy porous sponge engagement does.

You can't really "fully" bottom a sponge, because it will always produce additional stiffness, but the K does became super progressive somewhere around 80% compression or so, which is what I mean when I say bottom.

I don't know if I have enough feel to differentiate between being in the 0.2mm~ range where it's just starting to curve upward and being in the "solid" region where it's going straight upwards. I suspect it doesn't actually matter as far as sponge "activation" goes because you've already basically saturated it.

A 37A sponge didn't feel any different to me, apart from that it just needs a bit less* power to produce the same feeling and sound. It's not really different otherwise. On the backhand this is pretty different for me and that big of a difference would be enough that I can think "I'm not really using the sponge on these shots".

If I play with what feels like just the topsheet on the forehand, the arc will be okay, but the shot will be far too slow, and the actual spin quality is kinda low. It's not really a dangerous shot. Pretty safe though.