FH issue: i dun wanna smash no moar, i wanna spin moar. help!

[Lazer]

The point is, when changing your technique starting with something slow is your friend.
The number of layers doesn’t necessarily say everything about speed. What he needs is a slow blade with some flex and a rubber with not to much catapult.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tyce]

The point is, when changing your technique starting with something slow is your friend.
The number of layers doesn’t necessarily say everything about speed. What he needs is a slow blade with some flex and a rubber with not to much catapult.

Cheers
L-zr

That's how you would do it, and a valid method. But not the only one and, I dare say because Gozo has a history of playing with rocketship 1-ply, slow brings other challenges.
For those of us who started with flexy slow material it's probably no issue to go back and thus a good learning route. If your muscle memory is tuned on a cannon, however, using something completely different is likely counterproductive.

 

[Metaxa]

@Gozo, Why don’t you use that Zyre03 anymore?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

@Gozo, Why don’t you use that Zyre03 anymore?

Will keep Z03 in the drawer first while I fix my FH. Will go back to this ultimate rubber once I fix my fh.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Spoiler: Here is my bh warm-up.

Spoiler: And here is my fh stroke warm up

I have another 20 mins clip where I play a game against my regular sparring partner. Here you can see my fh in game form so that you may critique it @Tom Lodziak

 

[Metaxa]

What I notice at a glance is a stiff wrist, and arm movements that are usually too short and too slow – you need to turn your body more. (Compared to how I hit topspin)
May I ask how old you are, or at least roughly...

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

What I notice at a glance is a stiff wrist, and arm movements that are usually too short and too slow – you need to turn your body more. (Compared to how I hit topspin)
May I ask how old you are, or at least roughly...

early 50's & weigh approx 100kg.
I am darn and mighty please with myself despite these biological constraints, I refuse like a stubborn bull-dog, use pips nor adapt a play-style that stands in front of the table like a coconut tree just blocking and pushing only. I intend to play, pivot fh bomba, bh drive like I am 18 collegiate boy.

 

[Haito]

Spoiler: Here is my bh warm-up.

Spoiler: And here is my fh stroke warm up

I have another 20 mins clip where I play a game against my regular sparring partner. Here you can see my fh in game form so that you may critique it @Tom Lodziak

Have you considered learning the "finger power", the youtube clickbait coach special technique?

There are two groups of muscles connected to your fingers. If I remember correctly, thumb and pointing finger is one group and they are running on top of the hand, and remaining three fingers are going through the wrist. Either way. The result is that if you hold the racket with pointer and the thumb the wrist should be significantly more loose than otherwise. When you squeze the rest of the fingers wrist stiffens. You can try keeping the racket with thumb and pointer, with no tension on rest of the fingers ( do not fold them out or anything stupid like that). Then right before you think the contact is squeeze the middle finger, the racket will jump ever so slightly. This helped me to develop a fair bit more spin, the tradeoff is ball jumps in the higher arc for me.

The second thing I observed is that elbow height seems to matter. The best quality shots I get are usually when I get the elbow roughly on similar height as the ball. Then the ball seems to do a nice little arc. So if I the ball is low I get the whole body lower, if the ball is high I stand up more. Its not 100% rule. Its just something I observed, I have not crystalized any hypothesis yet. This seems to matter more for BH, but I've been working on the FH recently and it seems to help a lot, especcially with super duper heavy backspin. If I get my whole body lower, and the elbow is roighly on similar level as contact point or maybe a racket heads worth higher, its much easier to get the ball on the other side.

 

[golden_son]

Have you considered learning the "finger power", the youtube clickbait coach special technique?

There are two groups of muscles connected to your fingers. If I remember correctly, thumb and pointing finger is one group and they are running on top of the hand, and remaining three fingers are going through the wrist. Either way. The result is that if you hold the racket with pointer and the thumb the wrist should be significantly more loose than otherwise. When you squeze the rest of the fingers wrist stiffens. You can try keeping the racket with thumb and pointer, with no tension on rest of the fingers ( do not fold them out or anything stupid like that). Then right before you think the contact is squeeze the middle finger, the racket will jump ever so slightly. This helped me to develop a fair bit more spin, the tradeoff is ball jumps in the higher arc for me.

The second thing I observed is that elbow height seems to matter. The best quality shots I get are usually when I get the elbow roughly on similar height as the ball. Then the ball seems to do a nice little arc. So if I the ball is low I get the whole body lower, if the ball is high I stand up more. Its not 100% rule. Its just something I observed, I have not crystalized any hypothesis yet. This seems to matter more for BH, but I've been working on the FH recently and it seems to help a lot, especcially with super duper heavy backspin. If I get my whole body lower, and the elbow is roighly on similar level as contact point or maybe a racket heads worth higher, its much easier to get the ball on the other side.

Agreed. Gotta get those knees involved to adjust to the height of the ball. @gozo Toward the end of the second video you actually start getting lower and it looks better, and your foot movement is better. I wonder if your flat-hit habit is in part due to standing too straight.

Another thing I noticed is that as @Metaxa mentioned you tend to keep your elbow locked and swing with your shoulder. Not every time, but a lot of the time. You then start compensating for the lack of topspin by lifting your arm and trying to wrap over the top of the ball at the last second. Conversely, your loops at 2:10 and 2:18 look better - and your partner also missed their blocks.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Agreed. Gotta get those knees involved to adjust to the height of the ball. @gozo Toward the end of the second video you actually start getting lower and it looks better, and your foot movement is better. I wonder if your flat-hit habit is in part due to standing too straight.

Another thing I noticed is that as @Metaxa mentioned you tend to keep your elbow locked and swing with your shoulder. Not every time, but a lot of the time. You then start compensating for the lack of topspin by lifting your arm and trying to wrap over the top of the ball at the last second. Conversely, your loops at 2:10 and 2:18 look better - and your partner also missed their blocks.

with respect to the knees; if this unker forces it, like a typical Gen Z worker, the knees will immediately file a physical harassment report to HR. Unker G will be hauled up to meet HR for a long nice tea time chat.

 

[kindof99]

with respect to the knees; if this unker forces it, like a typical Gen Z worker, the knees will immediately file a physical harassment report to HR. Unker G will be hauled up to meet HR for a long nice tea time chat.

From a glimpse of your videos, I think you can spin the ball quite well in practice, but rarely spin the ball in matches. So the issue is not about the technique of how to spin the ball, but how to use it more properly in a match. I can see that you usually stand very close to the table after your serve, which will always guarantee that you can not loop with good spin.
I think you need to adjust/plan your transition better to have better chances to spin the ball (not serving long all the time, serve more with weak backspin ...)

 

[kindof99]

It looks like that you prefer to push and use back hand a lot. I think you probably need to force yourself to use forehand more. For those longer serves, you can definitely loop to receive with forehand. Wait for the ball a little longer and spin more. You might lose some matches at the beginning, but definitely help your game in the long run.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

From a glimpse of your videos, I think you can spin the ball quite well in practice, but rarely spin the ball in matches. So the issue is not about the technique of how to spin the ball, but how to use it more properly in a match. I can see that you usually stand very close to the table after your serve, which will always guarantee that you can not loop with good spin.
I think you need to adjust/plan your transition better to have better chances to spin the ball (not serving long all the time, serve more with weak backspin ...)

after serve, move back a little more. OK got it. Thx. It is an implementable tactic. Will execute it at my next sparring match.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

It looks like that you prefer to push and use back hand a lot. I think you probably need to force yourself to use forehand more. For those longer serves, you can definitely loop to receive with forehand. Wait for the ball a little longer and spin more. You might lose some matches at the beginning, but definitely help your game in the long run.

The bh use is my natural stage as my bh drive / flick has higher percentage than fh. Hence, I naturally gravitate towards it. For me to use fh, I have to be very selective or wait for easy ball. Truth be told, in this particular match, I made a hard conscious decision to use fh more than usual for this video purpose; that is to say, to show-tell my audience what my fh looks like under match pressure.

" Wait a little while longer before spin. " Yeah, even my club regulars said that to me. I tend to forget during match. Parasympathetic nerve system overide my rational thought. In simple English, " muscle memory not formed to take ball lower yet "

 

[NextLevel]

1. sigh…. hate to come asking for help. Chatgpt has failed me this time.

2. My bh is now functional, as I have been concentrating on it for the past six months or so to the detriment of fh.

3. BH has now become a weapon unto itself and I am pleased with it.

4. What I am not pleased is my fh, it has regressed. When I drive = overshoot. If I were to Loop = slow & spinny = counter loop magnet.

5. My opponent said, Gozo, your loop is like a gift to me.

6. What should I do? How do I rebuild me fh to functional again. I wanna be no more HULK SMASH, I want more spin. Preferably like Timo Boll.

PS: I have not been using Z03 for some time already. Been using BTY Falcima ( five ply all wood ) with Donic Acuda S1 both side. So it is not equipment issue.

Put the Z3 or something from Butterfly back on the forehand. Or even Evolution MX-P (though it doesn't last long).

Spoiler: Here is my bh warm-up.

Spoiler: And here is my fh stroke warm up

I have another 20 mins clip where I play a game against my regular sparring partner. Here you can see my fh in game form so that you may critique it @Tom Lodziak

Your forehand would have been fine in the old celluloid ball days. With the new ball you require muscular technique that uses more physical body to whip the ball. You just have to acept your power limitations and start with precise placement. Hitting the ball into the sidelines or into the middle. Then if you ever get fit enough or develop enough anticipation to get into position, you can add some power. But level relative, your power will alwaus be at a deficit because you are mostly using your hand abd that cannot get it done when you have to move to the ball. All of this applies to me at a different level so don't take it as absolute criticism it is all relative. Your forehand is reasonable, it is just going to not trouble most people at your level in isolation by itself without making people move.

 

[kindof99]

The bh use is my natural stage as my bh drive / flick has higher percentage than fh. Hence, I naturally gravitate towards it. For me to use fh, I have to be very selective or wait for easy ball. Truth be told, in this particular match, I made a hard conscious decision to use fh more than usual for this video purpose; that is to say, to show-tell my audience what my fh looks like under match pressure.

" Wait a little while longer before spin. " Yeah, even my club regulars said that to me. I tend to forget during match. Parasympathetic nerve system overide my rational thought. In simple English, " muscle memory not formed to take ball lower yet "

Your practice partner likes to push, which is perfect for you to practice looping with more spin. To implement more loop/spin in your match, you get to slow the pace a little bit to give your time to loop. If you plan to use pips on one side, then your current game/stand is fine, but just too close to the table for a two wing looper.

 

[kindof99]

Smash sometimes is not bad, but you definitely need to have a good loop to open against push and for serve receiving. After the opening, smashing can be a good option against intermediate player (maybe USATT 1800-?). In china, the saying is that only provincial players and up can counter top spin very well.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

I am referring to this type of fh loop. Is this a workable fh loop or is it something too easily countered? What do you guys think?

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Your forehand would have been fine in the old celluloid ball days. With the new ball you require muscular technique that uses more physical body to whip the ball. You just have to acept your power limitations and start with precise placement. Hitting the ball into the sidelines or into the middle. Then if you ever get fit enough or develop enough anticipation to get into position, you can add some power. But level relative, your power will alwaus be at a deficit because you are mostly using your hand abd that cannot get it done when you have to move to the ball. All of this applies to me at a different level so don't take it as absolute criticism it is all relative. Your forehand is reasonable, it is just going to not trouble most people at your level in isolation by itself without making people move.

Yes @NextLevel,

• This is what I intend to do now as a placeholder fix.
• Loop DTL, X-court or jam the middle. At the moment not perfect execution yet, but it is coming along nice.
• Contrast this with previous G iteration: He only know Hulk Smash. If it goes in, it is wonderful and marvelous. If it does not....
• Truthfully, I think the loopy placement first concept is more elegant.
• looking forward to more elegant G style.

 

[Tyce]

View attachment 43075
View attachment 43076
I am referring to this type of fh loop. Is this a workable fh loop or is it something too easily countered? What do you guys think?

OK so the first one is better than the second one, but both of them are moving mainly upwards without a lot of forward force.
You are hitting the first one firmly on the back of the ball, and the spin applied is mostly caused by the impact happening while you are moving the bat upwards.
The second one, you start with an open bat, still hit the ball moving the bat upwards and then you close the bat and move forward.
Because you are hitting the ball quite openly and directly, you're missing out on spin potential, so yes, these are easily countered.

Us middle aged guys have a disadvantage of not being able to get far enough down so we can start the swing closer to shoulder height. That makes it harder to start with a more closed bat angle.
What I try to do to help with that is basically only using my index and thumb to pinch the racket, the rest is loose. That gives me just a little bit more range to open the wrist and angle the blade.
Loose grip is also one of the first things to fail during matches, so I have to keep conscious of it.