Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

nymose · Dec 5, 2020

Tango K said:
Wow. This thread is massive! I missed the fun completely I ignored the thread exactly because of its title. (Hell, why would I care about the fastest stuff on earth I thought).
May I say something in between the elephants (at least counting the volume of texts), knowing that I don’t actually know any science around this. (So I’ve got my disclaimer straight on )

The actual loop is not pure spin as we’d like to imagine it. And we all actually know this. If we make the ball spin a ton without “mashing” it at the same time it won’t ever go to the other side. The ball trajectory is not determined by spin alone. It’s the balance between spin and speed in relation. This is probably why nymose think the flex helps curve the ball up. In reality, if the wood is hard, and you have the same stroke, you probably add the “smashing” force relatively more than the “spining” force. You have more spin but even more “smash” so the ball stays quite flat. Same for the kick. It needs both “smashing” and “spin” to kick deep. Hence you feel like hard wood makes more spin (which is true) but also “flattens the curve”.

To me, after trying Viscaria, Victas ZX Gear In (innerforce ALC/ZLC Limba) and Yasaka Reinforce AC (innerforce ALC Koto), it feels like hard wood makes more spin but it’s so easy to over “smash” so your contact has to be very thin, but not too thin (precise). If I did it right, it’s like hell. It’s just too hard to do right. So the “dampening” effect that Carl says mostly impact that “smash” thing, especially at contact point. The blade just dampens the tiny extra smash you make when contacting a little too thick, giving room for you to spin more easily.

This very same fundamental applies to tacky non-bouncy hard rubber. I’ve seen quite a few measurements proving that Chinese rubbers are “craps” but somehow it helps the Chinese make more spin. Because at speed, it’s actually more forgiving. It dampens the incoming force. Naturally your body adjusts to that without knowing that you’re actually putting in more force (by a slightly longer swing for example, or a heavier push on the leg)

It's funny that it became a discussion about the effect on the loop, because that wasn't really what I had in mind when making this thread. Not that I mind. It's fine

but it was because I was searching for a blade with the same speed as my bt777 but easier to make spin with on serves. On loops I have no problem, Because it's a higher impact shot, so in that regard I get plenty of spin. I just Feel dissatisfied with the spin on serves. It was obviously easier to keep it shorter, lower and spinnier with cj8000, which is also fast enough near the table, if I add in a little more force. But at mid distance, in out of position shots and when I get tired in my arm during a rally, it's not fast enough. So overall I find FX-S to be more forgiving. So I was thinking: "hmm, what if change the blade to something with the same speed but easier spin on low impact? Does such blade exist". I didn't want to make another "I'm searching for new equipment" thread. And I was curious to hear if people would mention blades with harder outers for instance, because I'm aware that peoples styles and skills are different

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 5, 2020

The touch for spin on serves, and the whip action of the wrist on spin for serves is largely about technique. Something worth watching for that is Brett Clarke's serve videos. He shows some stuff that gives a unique perspective on whip mechanics and how to generate a ton of spin.

nymose · Dec 5, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
The touch for spin on serves, and the whip action of the wrist on spin for serves is largely about technique. Something worth watching for that is Brett Clarke's serve videos. He shows some stuff that gives a unique perspective on whip mechanics and how to generate a ton of spin.

Yes thanks

I know this though. But doesn't mean that I'll suddenly have better technique [emoji1] Surely it helped me a couple months back when I watched these vids. But it takes practice to actually get it in. I think of the movement as a sine wave, since I also produce electronic music.

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 5, 2020

nymose said:
Yes thanks I know this though. But doesn't mean that I'll suddenly have better technique [emoji1] Surely it helped me a couple months back when I watched these vids. But it takes practice to actually get it in. I think of the movement as a sine wave, since I also produce electronic music.

Yep. Good touch on serves is actually something that is really hard to develop; it takes a ton of work; and you can feel you are going nowhere for months and months and then have a breakthrough. But with serves, more than any other aspect of TT, to get really good spin is so much a matter of technique. And it is an area where, a blade like a Viscaria with a harder top ply and the ALC ply would really help because there is no way around the fact that, to generate spin on a serve, you have to be really precise.

Higher tosses also help.

Der_Echte and NextLevel have great experience and advice on the subject.

But here is an except from a great post from over 5 years ago that may have useful information for you on increasing spin on serves:

Killerspintt said:
..........but it is also possible to loop this ball by touch.......has you described, by reaching a high dwell time (= "grabbing" the incomming spin).

Touch is everything in table tennis. I have faster arm speed on my FH loop than many of my team mates in my tt club, but a team mate is able to input incredible spin, more than me, even with is "slow motion" FH loop. He is able, thx to his touch, to deform the rubber even on "slow motion" strokes.

See this video of Shlager (serves) :

I do believe that anyone here can reach far higher bat speed on a pendelum serve than Schlager is using for most of his serves here. But nobody here is able to imput has much spin than Schlager. Thanks to his amazing touch, Schlager is able to input more deformation than us to his rubber, resulting to more spin than anyone of us, he is maximazing dwell time. And this is what you explain also at the end of your post, the acceleration is an important factor to reach a better dwell time/rubber deformation/higher spin.

IB66 · Dec 5, 2020

Serving is sort of a back seat passenger, in that it can be difficult for players to practice, I’m talking about us average Joe’s here!! When we do go to training sessions we tend to practice routines, be they fixed or irregular.
I feel these routines should start with a good serve, not just getting the ball in play.
It’s important to put maybe 15mins to practicing 1 serve or starting to learn a serve when you attend training sessions.

I’ve been lucky to have a table to practice serves on, but Carl is 100% right about touch and feel, sometimes less is more, less speed but better touch and contact is achieved, resulting in better spin. It can be hard to get your head around it !!
The other thing is consistently achieving the top level of contact. One day it’s ‘easier’ the next it’s like you’ve never hit a ball before!!! Can be very frustrating!!!
Especially when you start to get to grips with a serve action, let’s say a pendulum serve, you nail the timing impact position etc for ‘pinching’ the blade for a back/side spin variation, but then just can’t change it well enough to get the top/side spin variation. Then you try the back/side spin again and the timings gone!!!

Oh the other thing is to practice your serve ball toss, if you can toss the ball so it goes in the same place each time, then your serve action will become way more consistent because you ‘know’ where the ball is going to be. This is totally neglected by a lot of players, as it’s seen as easy!!!! Which actually it isn’t!!!

IB66 · Dec 5, 2020

As this thread is based on all wood blades, fastest/spinniest etc, I’m not really sure I can comment about the blades role!! But I definitely prefer a harder rubber for BH serves.
As far as which rubber produces the most spin for me when serving FH it’s Nittaku Sieger PK50. By the most I mean consistently, the top level of spin is probably the same as some other rubbers, but for some reason i hit those levels more often with this rubber. At the moment the PK50 on my old Grubba blade, which I haven’t used for months. A couple of days ago I got it out and did some serves with it, loads of spin!!, before that the PK50 was on a Nittaku Acoustic same thing loads of spin, little bit faster ball speed as well !!

nymose · Dec 5, 2020

IB66 said:
Serving is sort of a back seat passenger, in that it can be difficult for players to practice, I’m talking about us average Joe’s here!! When we do go to training sessions we tend to practice routines, be they fixed or irregular.
I feel these routines should start with a good serve, not just getting the ball in play.
It’s important to put maybe 15mins to practicing 1 serve or starting to learn a serve when you attend training sessions.

I’ve been lucky to have a table to practice serves on, but Carl is 100% right about touch and feel, sometimes less is more, less speed but better touch and contact is achieved, resulting in better spin. It can be hard to get your head around it !!
The other thing is consistently achieving the top level of contact. One day it’s ‘easier’ the next it’s like you’ve never hit a ball before!!! Can be very frustrating!!!
Especially when you start to get to grips with a serve action, let’s say a pendulum serve, you nail the timing impact position etc for ‘pinching’ the blade for a back/side spin variation, but then just can’t change it well enough to get the top/side spin variation. Then you try the back/side spin again and the timings gone!!!
Oh the other thing is to practice your serve ball toss, if you can toss the ball so it goes in the same place each time, then your serve action will become way more consistent because you ‘know’ where the ball is going to be. This is totally neglected by a lot of players, as it’s seen as easy!!!! Which actually it isn’t!!!

When I'm trying to add more spin I'm definetly not trying to add speed, but creating the correct touch, yes (In my mind spin and speed is opposites for Some reason). I know myself very well, and I tend to have higher standards than most when trying to achieve something. To some my serves might seem great, but to myself I usually don't think most of them are as good as I want them to be. Even though they might be good enough for my level.

Usually I would get to practice and do serves at least 30 mins before actual practice. But the last months time we've had a reduction back down to 10 people in the same room due to corona. We've been told to meet up to our actual practice time only. So the only service practice I get is when practicing openings and doing practice matches [emoji17]

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IB66 · Dec 5, 2020

nymose said:
When I'm trying to add more spin I'm definetly not trying to add speed, but creating the correct touch, yes (In my mind spin and speed is opposites for Some reason). I know myself very well, and I tend to have higher standards than most when trying to achieve something. To some my serves might seem great, but to myself I usually don't think most of them are as good as I want them to be. Even though they might be good enough for my level.

Usually I would get to practice and do serves at least 30 mins before actual practice. But the last months time we've had a reduction back down to 10 people in the same room due to corona. We've been told to meet up to our actual practice time only. So the only service practice I get is when practicing openings and doing practice matches [emoji17]

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But more racket speed does equal more spin, if the contact is correct.!!! The use of the fingers to tighten at impact (squeeze the blade, usually thumb and 1st finger) creates more speed and spin.

nymose · Dec 5, 2020

IB66 said:
But more racket speed does equal more spin, if the contact is correct.!!! The use of the fingers to tighten at impact (squeeze the blade, usually thumb and 1st finger) creates more speed and spin.

Yeah, but how the the hell am I supposed to keep the ball short if I add more speed? [emoji28]

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thomas.pong · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
Yeah, but how the the hell am I supposed to keep the ball short if I add more speed? [emoji28]

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I think what IB66 is talking about here is racket speed meaning the snap, to make the ball rotate faster, not ball speed since the contact stays soft even if fast. Also if you pay attention to where you hit the ball on your side of the table, you can keep the ball short even if it's fairly fast.

Kuba Hajto · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
Yeah, but how the the hell am I supposed to keep the ball short if I add more speed? [emoji28]

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That is the trick. Increasing spin and placing serve on your half correctly ensures shortness.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

thomas.pong said:
I think what IB66 is talking about here is racket speed meaning the snap, to make the ball rotate faster, not ball speed. Also if you pay attention to where you hit the ball on your side of the table, you can keep the ball short even if it's fairly fast.

Yeah, was thinking that afterwards, that that's probably what he meant. The acceleration Into the ball. Not the speed of the ball itself. But I already know that's how it works. And yes hitting the ball lower, when it's closer to the table, helps with landing the ball at the right spot on my own side to keep it lower and therefore Also shorter. I've managed to do underspin serves that hits the opponents side of the table 3-4 times or going back to the net. Easier to do with cj8000 than FX-S though.

So I do know everything about how to create proper underspin serves. I just need to practice it more. Put it Into practice, so to speek. That's why I was searching equipment, Because I had already found the answers in terms og technique haha [emoji28]

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brokenball · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
Yeah, but how the the hell am I supposed to keep the ball short if I add more speed? [emoji28]

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The physics of this is simple.
You must throw the ball straight up. The the paddle must be flat and moving horizontally. Timing is important because the ball is falling down and the paddle is moving horizontally and is flat. It is easy to miss the ball because the horizontal motion must be fast. The ball will bounce up but the horizontal motion will cause the ball to move forward but not very fast. The height of the throw and the distance above the table where you hit the ball is critical. The reason is that the ball will bounce up a certain fraction of the distance the ball falls. You don't want the all to bounce up too high because then it is flick bait. If you watch the Schlager video above you will see the paddle is almost horizontal when he makes contact with the ball. I do believe there are others that are better than Schlager at this.

If you can you can swing forward with the paddle tilted back a bit. This will greatly reduce the forward speed as the normal force is pointing mostly up and slightly backwards and only friction is dragging the ball forward. This is risky as the paddle must move even faster.

I practice serving balls that almost fall off the table and spin back to the net. The ball must have enough speed to get to the end of the table yet have strong enough spin to roll back to the net. These are wicked if they are kept low. They can't be flicked when low. Also I fake a lot so the opponent over compensates so I get a high ball to smash.

I regard the serve as first strike weapon.

thomas.pong · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
Yeah, was thinking that afterwards, that that's probably what he meant. The acceleration Into the ball. Not the speed of the ball itself. But I already know that's how it works. And yes hitting the ball lower, when it's closer to the table, helps with landing the ball at the right spot on my own side to keep it lower and therefore Also shorter. I've managed to do underspin serves that hits the opponents side of the table 3-4 times or going back to the net. Easier to do with cj8000 than FX-S though.

So I do know everything about how to create proper underspin serves. I just need to practice it more. Put it Into practice, so to speek. That's why I was searching equipment, Because I had already found the answers in terms og technique haha [emoji28]

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As you're kind of pointing out yourself, there's a difference between knowing something and being able to perform it well and regularly. So your issue lies essentially in practicing what you know in theory but not physically in full actuality.

IB66 · Dec 6, 2020

Kuba Hajto said:
That is the trick. Increasing spin and placing serve on your half correctly ensures shortness.

Yeah !! That’s the really hard part !! Keeping the contact correct!!

One minute you are serving short or half long, sweet!! Then slight mis-judgement and it’s in the net or even straight onto opponents side of the table!! Contact too heavy !!
Too light a contact, brush too fine and the ball just doesn’t carry enough energy and second bounce is at the net!!

when you snap the wrist thru and pinch the fingers at impact the racket head is really moving!! With a flat bat , or with the leading edge slightly tilted up (ghost serve) you are aiming to contact the ball close to the leading edge, the number of times I’ve mis-timed this and hit the ball with the leading edge!!!! Ball landing 15ft past the table !!!
You look like a right numpty!!!

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

brokenball said:
The physics of this is simple.
You must throw the ball straight up. The the paddle must be flat and moving horizontally. Timing is important because the ball is falling down and the paddle is moving horizontally and is flat. It is easy to miss the ball because the horizontal motion must be fast. The ball will bounce up but the horizontal motion will cause the ball to move forward but not very fast. The height of the throw and the distance above the table where you hit the ball is critical. The reason is that the ball will bounce up a certain fraction of the distance the ball falls. You don't want the all to bounce up too high because then it is flick bait. If you watch the Schlager video above you will see the paddle is almost horizontal when he makes contact with the ball. I do believe there are others that are better than Schlager at this.

If you can you can swing forward with the paddle tilted back a bit. This will greatly reduce the forward speed as the normal force is pointing mostly up and slightly backwards and only friction is dragging the ball forward. This is risky as the paddle must move even faster.

I practice serving balls that almost fall off the table and spin back to the net. The ball must have enough speed to get to the end of the table yet have strong enough spin to roll back to the net. These are wicked if they are kept low. They can't be flicked when low. Also I fake a lot so the opponent over compensates so I get a high ball to smash.

I regard the serve as first strike weapon.

Yeah yeah, again, I know all this, thanks [emoji38]
It's just that it sounded like that the ball itself had to be fast. But it's the snap of the movement that has to be. That's 2 different things [emoji28] of course when the ball gets lower and hits the opponents side at least twice, it'll appear as the ball is faster, because the time between everytime it lands on the table is shorter.

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nymose · Dec 6, 2020

thomas.pong said:
As you're kind of pointing out yourself, there's a difference between knowing something and being able to perform it well and regularly. So your issue lies essentially in practicing what you know in theory but not physically in full actuality.

Yes it does

but the truth is that certain equipment will help you produce spin or speed easier.

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

A few details:

Serve practice: you can practice a lot of the elements of a serve without a table: on a floor, a couch or a bed, you get immediate feedback about the amount of spin.

Serve and receive drills: There are several reasons why serve and receive drills are good to practice. One of them is that you are practicing in a way that mirrors game play, so you are more likely to cross those skills over into real matches. Another is that you get to practice the serve as the first part of every new round of the drill.

Spin and speed. While it is true that a fast ball does not have to be spinny and a spinny ball can be slow, this does not have to be the case. You can hit a ball that is both fast and spinny. I defy you to say Ma Long's loops are slow, or that they don't have a ton of spin.

If that is the case, you can also have a serve that is fast and spinny. And someone good at serving should actually be able to serve a fast spinny ball that is actually also short, and so, bounces more than 2x on the opponent's side. Serves like that are much more effective than slow spinny serves because serves that are spinny but slow give the opponent much more time to read the spin and adjust to ball placement. But if the ball is fast, spinny and short, it has to be low and this will give the opponent trouble with adjusting to spin and ball placement.

So, I would suggest that, even if IB66 was talking about racket speed for generating spin, the idea of making short, fast, spinny serves would be valuable. When the serve is short, fast and spinny, you can also, often get the ball to skid a little. That makes the serve that much harder to return and gives you even better setups.

So, I would say, keep working on the mechanics and the technique. Because if you think you know these details and you are needing to improve your serves, then your body does not know them and what your head knows is not as important as what your body knows with these kinds of techniques.

Based on that idea, it might be worth your while to video yourself serving and see what you are doing. It is likely that what the video shows will be different than what you think you are doing. And that could help you improve immensely.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

Oh, one more detail.

Toss: If you watch the top pros, most of them start the ball near the mid-line of the table, and just behind the end-line. When they toss, the ball goes up at least to the height of their head, often considerably higher, and when it comes down it is pretty close to their right hip (so, the hip farther away from the table).

There are a few reasons for this:

1) If you throw perfectly straight up, then, either you have to throw from exactly where you want to contact, or you have to move to the ball which would considerably reduce the amount of power you can add from hips and legs.
2) It would be very awkward to hold the ball where you wanted to contact the ball and you would be accused of trying to hide the ball.
3) That point right near your right hip is where you can apply the most force into the ball with the action of a pendulum serve. If you are striking the ball somewhere else, you will not be maximizing power from the stroke through the racket into the ball.

Contacting the ball at this point is very close to contacting the ball behind your body (not quite but close) and does cause a lot of amateur players to complain about serves they think are illegal which are not illegal. The ball should be fully visible from the point where you will have most leverage on contact.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

I guess I am on a tangent:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/showthread.php?21991-New-quot-Rules-quot-for-Table-Tennis

Baal said:
This is the definitive compilation of the Rules for Table Tennis as delivered by the Table Tennis Gods, not the mere ITTF. See the rest of the thread for further commentary.

27. While it is allowed and perhaps even mandated to own an insane number of blades (see rule 20), it is not allowed to believe that the next one you buy will appreciably improve your level.

The rule above is clear.

Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

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