Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
A few details:

Serve practice: you can practice a lot of the elements of a serve without a table: on a floor, a couch or a bed, you get immediate feedback about the amount of spin.

Serve and receive drills: There are several reasons why serve and receive drills are good to practice. One of them is that you are practicing in a way that mirrors game play, so you are more likely to cross those skills over into real matches. Another is that you get to practice the serve as the first part of every new round of the drill.

Spin and speed. While it is true that a fast ball does not have to be spinny and a spinny ball can be slow, this does not have to be the case. You can hit a ball that is both fast and spinny. I defy you to say Ma Long's loops are slow, or that they don't have a ton of spin.

If that is the case, you can also have a serve that is fast and spinny. And someone good at serving should actually be able to serve a fast spinny ball that is actually also short, and so, bounces more than 2x on the opponent's side. Serves like that are much more effective than slow spinny serves because serves that are spinny but slow give the opponent much more time to read the spin and adjust to ball placement. But if the ball is fast, spinny and short, it has to be low and this will give the opponent trouble with adjusting to spin and ball placement.

So, I would suggest that, even if IB66 was talking about racket speed for generating spin, the idea of making short, fast, spinny serves would be valuable. When the serve is short, fast and spinny, you can also, often get the ball to skid a little. That makes the serve that much harder to return and gives you even better setups.

So, I would say, keep working on the mechanics and the technique. Because if you think you know these details and you are needing to improve your serves, then your body does not know them and what your head knows is not as important as what your body knows with these kinds of techniques.

Based on that idea, it might be worth your while to video yourself serving and see what you are doing. It is likely that what the video shows will be different than what you think you are doing. And that could help you improve immensely.

I agree.

As I wrote Before, a lower ball can make the ball appear faster on a short serve. I practiced this a lot in the beginning of this season, Because it's so many years ago I last played tt, so it was dificult to get enough underspin on the serves. So instead I practice lower serves first, then I practiced them getting shorter to hit the other side twice and automatically putting more underspin in of course. People around my level hated my serves, because they had difficulty recieving. Getting into the ball to late.

I of course do other serves, like long, fast no spin serves into the stomach/pocket. Or with slight topspin. Sidespin underspin. But that's only as variations tactically to throw off the opponent, as you would commonly do.

I have videoed myself, and everytime I never get surprised. I always see what I already know. I'm generally quite aware of myself

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
As I wrote Before, a lower ball can make the ball appear faster on a short serve.

The only thing I would say here is, while this might be true, you also can serve short, fast and spinny, SO, not just APPEARING to be faster.

But maybe that is what you meant anyway. And if the ball is fast, low and spinny so that the low profile causes the ball to skid, well.....it is not going to skid unless it is decently fast.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
Oh, one more detail.

Toss: If you watch the top pros, most of them start the ball near the mid-line of the table, and just behind the end-line. When they toss, the ball goes up at least to the height of their head, often considerably higher, and when it comes down it is pretty close to their right hip (so, the hip farther away from the table).

There are a few reasons for this:

1) If you throw perfectly straight up, then, either you have to throw from exactly where you want to contact, or you have to move to the ball which would considerably reduce the amount of power you can add from hips and legs.
2) It would be very awkward to hold the ball where you wanted to contact the ball and you would be accused of trying to hide the ball.
3) That point right near your right hip is where you can apply the most force into the ball with the action of a pendulum serve. If you are striking the ball somewhere else, you will not be maximizing power from the stroke through the racket into the ball.

Contacting the ball at this point is very close to contacting the ball behind your body (not quite but close) and does cause a lot of amateur players to complain about serves they think are illegal which are not illegal. The ball should be fully visible from the point where you will have most leverage on contact.

I use the usual serving position. Standing with my left side towards the table on the left side on the table. I stand with my feet apart, so that I can move around faster after the toss, so that I can be ready for the next ball. My toss is behind the line of course. Nearer to the midline than to the left sideline. I toss the ball slightly above my head. Sometimes I shake things up and toss the ball higher to get the ball lower and faster. I don't get more spin from it though.

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nymose · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
The only thing I would say here is, while this might be true, you also can serve short, fast and spinny, SO, not just APPEARING to be faster.

But maybe that is what you meant anyway. And if the ball is fast, low and spinny so that the low profile causes the ball to skid, well.....it is not going to skid unless it is decently fast.

Hmm maybe [emoji848]

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
I use the usual serving position. Standing with my left side towards the table on the left side on the table. I stand with my feet apart, so that I can move around faster after the toss, so that I can be ready for the next ball. My toss is behind the line of course. Nearer to the midline than to the left sideline. I toss the ball slightly above my head. Sometimes I shake things up and toss the ball higher to get the ball lower and faster. I don't get more spin from it though.

Any chance you can post some footage that has you serving? It would be fun to see. It sounds like you are doing a lot right. So.....not much to say really.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
Any chance you can post some footage that has you serving? It would be fun to see. It sounds like you are doing a lot right. So.....not much to say really.

I of course deleted it right after watching. I sold my table to use at Home, Because I had a complaining neighbour.

I can try and film it sometimes next week at the club, if I remember to do so [emoji28]

I think it's just about practicing and getting the timing of every movement right

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IB66 · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
Yes it does but the truth is that certain equipment will help you produce spin or speed easier.

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The Grubba blade i have is head heavy,(with rubbers on it!!). I think this can help with increasing spin to some extent. If you have 2 blades , 1 head light, 1 head heavy, and make 2 serves, same racket speed, same contact etc the head heavy serve should be producing a bit more spin, because there’s more momentum at the head of the bat.
On the other hand, you should be able to produce more racket head speed with a head light blade, just because there’s less weight to get moving!!

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

IB66 said:
The Grubba blade i have is head heavy,(with rubbers on it!!). I think this can help with increasing spin to some extent. If you have 2 blades , 1 head light, 1 head heavy, and make 2 serves, same racket speed, same contact etc the head heavy serve should be producing a bit more spin, because there’s more momentum at the head of the bat.
On the other hand, you should be able to produce more racket head speed with a head light blade, just because there’s less weight to get moving!!

My experience with a more headheavy blade, is that it's easier to produce speed due to the added force of the weight. But of course when taking about underspin serves specifically, a lighter head would make it easier and less straining to do a fast snap. For fast long no spin or topspin serves, a heavier head will help adding force. If talking about other shots, a lighter head will make it easier to mover the racket around. Will be easier to add your own force. A heavier head though would give the blade more speed, since the extra weight will add more force when swinging the racket around.

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

IB66 said:
The Grubba blade i have is head heavy,(with rubbers on it!!). I think this can help with increasing spin to some extent. If you have 2 blades , 1 head light, 1 head heavy, and make 2 serves, same racket speed, same contact etc the head heavy serve should be producing a bit more spin, because there’s more momentum at the head of the bat.
On the other hand, you should be able to produce more racket head speed with a head light blade, just because there’s less weight to get moving!!

nymose said:
My experience with a more headheavy blade, is that it's easier to produce speed due to the added force of the weight. But of course when taking about underspin serves specifically, a lighter head would make it easier and less straining to do a fast snap. For fast long no spin or topspin serves, a heavier head will help adding force. If talking about other shots, a lighter head will make it easier to mover the racket around. Will be easier to add your own force. A heavier head though would give the blade more speed, since the extra weight will add more force when swinging the racket around.

I would agree with NyMose here. But you should read some stuff Der_Echte has written about the benefits of handle heavy blades. Because I think, when he talks on that subject, he is pretty spot on. And he and I did some tests on before and after of blades he added weight to the handle on. And what he says, definitely falls in line with what we both tested. So, his thoughts have the benefit of testing behind them.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

nymose said:
I of course deleted it right after watching. I sold my table to use at Home, Because I had a complaining neighbour.

I can try and film it sometimes next week at the club, if I remember to do so [emoji28]

I think it's just about practicing and getting the timing of every movement right

No rush. Any clip of you serving or playing where you start with a serve would be fun to watch and educational. So I will look forward to it when it does happen. Thank you.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
No rush. Any clip of you serving or playing where you start with a serve would be fun to watch and educational. So I will look forward to it when it does happen. Thank you.

Performance anxiety. One of The curses of being very self aware, very aware of my surroundings (Even subconsiously it affects me) having relatively low self esteem (no problems with the Self worth though), being an overthinker and having relatively high standards for oneself [emoji28]
I've grown better at blocking it out and just doing it. I hate when I'm aware of someone watching. Makes me perform less good, because I loose focus on what's in front of me. Hahaha, it is what it is. It'll work out I'm sure [emoji1]

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brokenball · Dec 6, 2020

The whole heavy blade myth is just that. There is a point of diminishing returns as the ratio of the paddle to ball weight increases. If a 200 gm paddle is good then why isn't a 225 gm paddle better? No one has been able to answer that.

Also, it isn't easier to hit a ball with speed with a heavy paddle. The amount of energy you must put into the paddle is proportional to the mass but the the speed of after impact does not go up linearly with the increase in paddle mass.

I understand that some people will like heavy paddles but they shouldn't be spreading myths.
Der Echte must use heavy paddles for the work out.

Actually, it is better to have a lighter paddle if you do a lot of brushing because the normal ( perpendicular to the paddle ) speed after impact after the ball should be minimized whereas the friction and tangential spring of the rubber should be maximized.

nymose · Dec 6, 2020

brokenball said:
The whole heavy blade myth is just that. There is a point of diminishing returns as the ratio of the paddle to ball weight increases. If a 200 gm paddle is good then why isn't a 225 gm paddle better? No one has been able to answer that.

Also, it isn't easier to hit a ball with speed with a heavy paddle. The amount of energy you must put into the paddle is proportional to the mass but the the speed of after impact does not go up linearly with the increase in paddle mass.

I understand that some people will like heavy paddles but they shouldn't be spreading myths.
Der Echte must use heavy paddles for the work out.

Actually, it is better to have a lighter paddle if you do a lot of brushing because the normal ( perpendicular to the paddle ) speed after impact after the ball should be minimized whereas the friction and tangential spring of the rubber should be maximized.

I don't think it's a myth no. And no one says that a heavier blade is overall better. And several pros prefer a headheavy blade. A pro who practices several hours a day several days per week will most likely get more out of a heavier setup. As do out of a stiffer blade and a harder and thicker sponge. Personally I prefer a lighter setup, because I don't have the musclemass sustain longer periods of use with a heavier head. Too light a blade will Also make the setup more headheavy due to the weight from the rubbers. So I prefer around 85g. So 83 and 87 is also fine

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UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

brokenball said:
The whole heavy blade myth is just that. There is a point of diminishing returns as the ratio of the paddle to ball weight increases. If a 200 gm paddle is good then why isn't a 225 gm paddle better? No one has been able to answer that.

Also, it isn't easier to hit a ball with speed with a heavy paddle. The amount of energy you must put into the paddle is proportional to the mass but the the speed of after impact does not go up linearly with the increase in paddle mass.

I understand that some people will like heavy paddles but they shouldn't be spreading myths.
Der Echte must use heavy paddles for the work out.

Actually, it is better to have a lighter paddle if you do a lot of brushing because the normal ( perpendicular to the paddle ) speed after impact after the ball should be minimized whereas the friction and tangential spring of the rubber should be maximized.

Der actually doesn't use heavy rackets. He uses rackets that were light where the handle is made heavier.

It is interesting.

But, you are 500% correct that there is a point of demising returns. To some extent Der is a TroubleMaker having fun.

His main point, as I understand it is, if you have two rackets that both weighed 92 grams, and one was handle hollow and head heavy, and the other was originally 82 grams but had extra weight added to the hollow space of the handle, it won't feel like a 92 gram blade and the extra weight in the handle which ensures it won't be head heavy will give the racket a feeling of being more solid and you will be able to get really nice whip.

So, the question that is sort of posed by what Der does is:

If you have three blades the same weight, [say 82 grams before weight added and 92 grams after weight added] and you add 10 grams to the tip of #1, 10 grams to the area where the handle meets the blade face in #2, and 10 grams to the bottom of the handle in #3, which will take the most force to swing? Which will take the least force to swing? Said differently: Which will be the hardest to swing fast? Which will be the easiest to swing fast?

Which is sort of the same question as: If I held a 20lbs weight very close to my body, and then extended my arms and held that same 20lbs weight arms length from my body, would the weight feel heavier close to me, or with the arms extended? The weight has not changed, just leverage and the lever arm.

Nevertheless, I still enjoy my 93 gram V+ (which is slightly head heavy) more than any other blade I have used. I have used heavier and I can wield them. But, I can feel the diminishing return of heavier clearly making racket speed slower. With a slightly lighter blade, it would make my racket speed a little faster. But for me, it feels, I don't need that and the extra inertia into the ball from those extra few grams feels nice to me.

Still, you can't get around the fact that heavier will still make the acceleration [from start at zero to full racket speed] and the top end racket speed slower because you do have to move more mass.

So, an 82 gram blade, you will be able to swing that faster than an 82 gram blade with 10 grams added to the handle thereby making it a 92 gram blade.

Kuba Hajto · Dec 6, 2020

I agree with you all. The weight total is not as important. For me the most important is is where the weight is. I've seen a lot of styles. Some people prefer heavy handle some people prefer heavy head. From what I've seen, mo people who do prefer head-heavy setups do heavily utilize the wrist in their game and seem more relaxed, they seem to treat their arm like a ball connected to a flail (like a few sticks connected to each other). In that case, it makes a lot of sense. Players who play more control game, with very short strokes and stiff wrists did prefer balanced setups.

I am not saying that people who play control game, have stiff wrist, I am just saying that players who preferred said blade usually did show most of those tendencies, but not neceserilly all of them all the time.

Kuba Hajto · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
So, the question that is sort of posed by what Der does is:

If you have three blades the same weight, [say 82 grams before weight added and 92 grams after weight added] and you add 10 grams to the tip of #1, 10 grams to the area where the handle meets the blade face in #2, and 10 grams to the bottom of the handle in #3, which will take the most force to swing? Which will take the least force to swing? Said differently: Which will be the hardest to swing fast? Which will be the easiest to swing fast?

Which is sort of the same question as: If I held a 20lbs weight very close to my body, and then extended my arms and held that same 20lbs weight arms length from my body, would the weight feel heavier close to me, or with the arms extended? The weight has not changed, just leverage and the lever arm.

I am very bad at physics but does this question apply to table tennis at all? 20lbs close to the body "feels lighter" than 20lbs on the extended arm. But do we even hold the racket on the extended arm? When I am preparing to do the stroke, I still have the racket relatively close to the body and also relatively low. When I am accelerating the arm with my body (legs, then torso, then arm) I feel more of the weight of the hand than the racket. It feels like it gives more resistance than even the heaviest racket I've used. If I do over the table maneuvers I still keep loose, tight, and close the body.

I might got a bit off the discussion, but are you contemplating now over weight affecting the spin and speed or rather how hard/easy is it to handle.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

Kuba Hajto said:
I am very bad at physics but does this question apply to table tennis at all? 20lbs close to the body "feels lighter" than 20lbs on the extended arm. But do we even hold the racket on the extended arm? When I am preparing to do the stroke, I still have the racket relatively close to the body and also relatively low. When I am accelerating the arm with my body (legs, then torso, then arm) I feel more of the weight of the hand than the racket. It feels like it gives more resistance than even the heaviest racket I've used. If I do over the table maneuvers I still keep loose, tight, and close the body.

I might got a bit off the discussion, but are you contemplating now over weight affecting the spin and speed or rather how hard/easy is it to handle.

The weight that is in your hand is, no matter how you slice it, closer to your center of gravity than the weight in the tip of the blade. If you take two blades the same weight, and have one with 10 grams extra in the tip and one with the extra 10 grams in the handle, it will be harder to accelerate (start stroke) and harder to get the stroke to top speed with the blade where the added weight is in the tip. It will be easier to accelerate and you will reach a higher top speed with a blade that has that same 10 grams added to the handle instead of the tip.

So, yeah. It is the same thing. The 20lbs weight just makes the feeling of which is heavier more easy to feel. The further away the weight is from the fulcrum of of the movement, the more weight it will feel like. The tip is farther away from where the stroke is generated than the handle.

That should be easy to understand. But feel free to test. Clip a small 10 gram lead weight to the tip of a blade and swing it and feel the swing. Then clip the same 10 gram weight to the handle of the same blade and swing and feel. If you can't clearly feel the difference, then try a 20 gram weight. But if you can pay attention and feel things, 10 grams should be more than enough weight for the experiment. Even someone not so skilled and feeling comparisons like that should be able to feel the difference.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

This is the same idea. This is baseball: When I was a kid, we used to put what was called a donut (a circular weight) on the end of a bat and swing while warming up to bat and the donut would make the bat feel much heavier. If you swing it a bunch of times in the on deck circle warming up, when you get up to the plate for the real at bat, the bat without the weight would feel light and easier to swing.

If you had the donut between your hands as you swing the bat, it would make the bat feel heavier in the same way.

The bat is longer, the weight is heavier. But the principle is the same. The weight in your hand will not make the bat feel heavier the way it will when the weight is towards the end of the bat.

Kuba Hajto · Dec 6, 2020

UpSideDownCarl said:
This is the same idea. This is baseball: When I was a kid, we used to put what was called a donut (a circular weight) on the end of a bat and swing while warming up to bat and the donut would make the bat feel much heavier. If you swing it a bunch of times in the on deck circle warming up, when you get up to the plate for the real at bat, the bat without the weight would feel light and easier to swing.

If you had the donut between your hands as you swing the bat, it would make the bat feel heavier in the same way.

The bat is longer, the weight is heavier. But the principle is the same. The weight in your hand will not make the bat feel heavier the way it will when the weight is towards the end of the bat.

I get what you are saying. I kinda get physics behind and it makes total sense for me. Although my practical experience is contradictory. As long as FH rubber is heavier than BH i don't really feel as much of a difference in the handle to head balance.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 6, 2020

I don't care much about if my blade is head, handle or center balanced. When you get used to what you have, it will work for you.

But the tests Der and I did were honestly eye opening to me back when we did them.

Spinniest but fastest all-wood blade that you've tried.

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