Beginner defender (LP chopper): equipment + tactics vs strong loopers?

[MORTtheORT]

This thread makes me want to go back to long p on bh! I will post a link. My theory is, that any type of rubber can overcome any type of challenge. It is just about how well you use it. But lp limits you to a lower number of strokes, and I found it more fun to use inverted in the end.

100%. And a lack of understanding which can create fear and doubt is a LP players greatest asset.

The amount of times you see a player desperately trying to put more and more spin on their serve at a LP players is alarming.

 

[Volk]

Life gets difficult for LP players as you go up the ratings. Players who understand LPs and have strong, consistent attacks are always going to be a problem for you. Strong players basically see LPs as a free hit, as you can control the spin coming back at you. Strong attackers are all about smashing the LP player out of the game early.

I would definitely be focusing on control, as placement is your key to success. Good LP players make the game uncomfortable with placement, challenging the opponent's footwork, fitness and focus. It is a game of breaking down your opponent's game.

A strategic example of this is when your opponent serves light to no backspin to your pimples (this is going to be a 101 game plan you will come up against) so you send a topspin ball back for them to kill...You need to have the control to put it away from their FH and either angle hard to the BH or jam them up on the BH side of the table....making them uncomfortable and challenging the footwork. They might smash this at first, but can they keep it up as they tire is the objective. Do this until they start to compensate for it...then place wide on the FH to challenge their footwork again...Even better if they get nervous about your placements...lowering the quality of their serve...good time to step around the ball and FH attack right at them or down the line. Another good trick LP players use is bringing your opponent to the table...then attack with your normal rubber to catch them out at the table.

LPs play is about the long game...place well, keep them moving and attack any soft returns when you can.


A difficult combination I came against playing in Europe was an Anti-Spin -Anti Power BH with the T05FX on the FH. (This experience is why I am experimenting with the T05FX at the moment). The constant change from fast and slow spin, good placement and tempo change made this a difficult game for me. My footwork was being pushed beyond what I could maintain in a match.

Thanks a lot man, this is seriously useful.


What you describe matches exactly what I feel in matches: as soon as opponents understand LP, they treat it like a free hit, especially with long fast flat serves to my LP backhand (and even short dead serves). Your example is pertty much a real game script.

I’m gonna focus hard on what you said: control + placement first, keep them moving, jam the BH/crossover or angle wide until they start compensating, then switch it up and step around to attack any softer serve/return. Also mixing short/long to bring them in then hit with the normal rubber makes total sense.

Funny enough my coach told me the same thing today: placement/variation + knowing when to flip from defense to attack. Really appreciate it 💯

 

[MORTtheORT]

Thanks a lot man, this is seriously useful.


What you describe matches exactly what I feel in matches: as soon as opponents understand LP, they treat it like a free hit, especially with long fast flat serves to my LP backhand (and even short dead serves). Your example is pertty much a real game script.

I’m gonna focus hard on what you said: control + placement first, keep them moving, jam the BH/crossover or angle wide until they start compensating, then switch it up and step around to attack any softer serve/return. Also mixing short/long to bring them in then hit with the normal rubber makes total sense.

Funny enough my coach told me the same thing today: placement/variation + knowing when to flip from defense to attack. Really appreciate it 💯

I played against your very pimples in my season matches last night. Was an interesting match, the person was able to chop the ball low with a good angle to my BH side, I would say sometimes getting the ball to skid off the table. Made it a bit harder to attack and I could see players who are not confident would struggle with this.

I won 3-1 but it was a very tactical game requiring focus and not a true reflection of how well they played.

Maybe some insight into my thinking/strategy could be helpful?

My initial strategy was to serve long to their BH. At first a simple long to the BH serve to see if they would just send back an easy topspin for me to attack. They did a very good job with this hard low chop to my BH. I could see they wanted a soft return to their FH to attack from this awkward low chop they did so they could attack wide. So I started to put variations of side spin long with backspin and topspin to force the chop response more to the central of the table for me to attack and force some errors in there game with the variation of spin (they would adjust to stay away from my FH so I would spin it the other way so they missed the table). Their coach in the third game got them to adjust how they stood at the table which brought their chop angle back into the game chopping the ball back low and fast in awkward spots on the table. So I adjusted my serve to looking like I am going to serve wide and fast but then went down the line fast, then down the line short with heavy backspin and then no spin variations so they would dump it into the net. If I saw them adjust to the down the line serve the I will go fast and hard backspin at the BH side of the table and throw in a short to the FH kicker serve to really challenge their footwork and stop them settling into the game.

I hope that insight into how I played your very rubbers helps. What made this game harder was their ability to place a low ball in awkward spots around my BH. Forced me to adjust my game.

I think for LP players you need to identify early if your opponent is the type/level of players who will work to avoid your pimples vs a player who understands them and will play at your pimples. You will need to have different strategies for these two situations.

 

[Volk]

I played against your very pimples in my season matches last night. Was an interesting match, the person was able to chop the ball low with a good angle to my BH side, I would say sometimes getting the ball to skid off the table. Made it a bit harder to attack and I could see players who are not confident would struggle with this.

I won 3-1 but it was a very tactical game requiring focus and not a true reflection of how well they played.

Maybe some insight into my thinking/strategy could be helpful?

My initial strategy was to serve long to their BH. At first a simple long to the BH serve to see if they would just send back an easy topspin for me to attack. They did a very good job with this hard low chop to my BH. I could see they wanted a soft return to their FH to attack from this awkward low chop they did so they could attack wide. So I started to put variations of side spin long with backspin and topspin to force the chop response more to the central of the table for me to attack and force some errors in there game with the variation of spin (they would adjust to stay away from my FH so I would spin it the other way so they missed the table). Their coach in the third game got them to adjust how they stood at the table which brought their chop angle back into the game chopping the ball back low and fast in awkward spots on the table. So I adjusted my serve to looking like I am going to serve wide and fast but then went down the line fast, then down the line short with heavy backspin and then no spin variations so they would dump it into the net. If I saw them adjust to the down the line serve the I will go fast and hard backspin at the BH side of the table and throw in a short to the FH kicker serve to really challenge their footwork and stop them settling into the game.

I hope that insight into how I played your very rubbers helps. What made this game harder was their ability to place a low ball in awkward spots around my BH. Forced me to adjust my game.

I think for LP players you need to identify early if your opponent is the type/level of players who will work to avoid your pimples vs a player who understands them and will play at your pimples. You will need to have different strategies for these two situations.

This is insanely informative and a pleasure to read, thank you fr 🙏 Super strategic, and you can tell every action has a reason. I've already started implementing your tips and will definitely come back to it to “reverse-engineer” how to deal with a player like you as a chopper (I have a lot of respect for strategic players like you and enjoy those games the most even if I lose, but I try not to show it in-game to not give you too much confidence 😅).

And yesss those awkward low balls to BH/middle… guilty 😅 (it's like a defense mechanism and defensive attack and a go-to I can count on when chopping). The “balle rasante” that barely clears the net, either heavy backspin or dead, it's my favorite LP shot when I get it pefect (you need to contact just right and be in position though, not easy).

Quick update too because I had a real 🤯 moment: did a big session with my coach (10 backspin balls / 10 topspin balls, defend first then attack, then again) and we tested 4 setups. When he gave me his comp setup… something just magically clicked. I was going 10/10 on most drills, and even on attacks my weird LP stuff that I do without thinking started landing naturally (BH flips with LP, strawberry-ish variations, full punch/drives). For the first time in 4 months, these moves felt automatic.

So yeah, I’m done overthinking gear. Coach told me to just copy his: Diode Pro + P4V 1.0mm (FH he uses Dignics 09C, felt spinnier but in a high parabola way than H3N, kinda safer, but faster, and I can actually swing hard and not be afraid...I’ll just grind technique but it felt a lot more natural than my current setup, but there are things I will miss a lot with the J&H like the blocks, counters, high speed vertical shots, flat shots, my instinct tells me).

Big takeaway he dropped: fast carbon + fast rubbers can be a trap for beginners/intermediates : if your technique isn’t built yet, you’ll fight your own setup. For aspiring choppers/defenders: control + placement + variation > raw speed , coach said, same as what MortTheOrt said (unless you really know why you need more speed and in that case you don't need any "tips" cuz you already worked a lot on it).

Can’t wait to train with this, probably my last setup for a long time. 🏓

 

[Lula]

I think you need a good forehand attack. The opponent need to be afraid of something, otherwise they will just loop soft and are not forced to errors.
I personally think short pimple choppers or twiddlers are really nasty. Very hard to play a hard stroke if the opponent do not know the spin in the ball. Even with long pimple i think it is good to learn to change up the spin. Maybe in the beginning just play safe to learn.