First Time Penholder: Help me out!

[zhzhzhz]

Felix is tall though!

His hands are on the smaller side.

That could be the case, but I think they did something wrong which was made worse by the finger on the handle

Having the finger on the handle is fine. Most penhold players even pros have that happen during forehand and rpb strokes.

Interesting proposal, but for me either Wang Hao or Dang Qiu is the way to go

Not for a new player.

Welcome to Zh`s second lesson.

In the first lesson we covered how you should learn TPB before RPB and how you should use both TPB and RPB to confuse the opponent.

In this lesson, I'm giving a recommendation for new penhold players:
Start with the old c pen grip (stacked fingers). Learn and master your forehand and tpb strokes before switching grips and learning rpb.

While using this grip you will notice that players who play like this make their stacked fingers touch the rubber during forehand strokes. This will look like Felix Lebrun`s grip and guess what this is Felix Lenrun`s grip.

New players tend to use grips that pros use. These grips are a bit stiff in some places and take time to develop. It hurts a lot if you want to copy someone like Xu Xin or Dang Qiu right off the bat as soon as you learn penhold.


TLDR: learn classic one sided penhold before modern penhold and use stacked fingers before using grips oriented on RPB or FH

Do join me for more lessons so that you don't waist your time with your hand hurting and looking like a total newbie.

 

[BlotOnPaper]

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I also tried playing rpb with tumb pressure but found out that playing with index pressure is much better. With penhold you can play with close racket even against heavy bakspin, but you need to have strong wrists and really accelerate on the touch. This is the reason why i start using Wang Hao's tumb position, sligtly crossed on the handle, and not straight tumb on the blade itself, like Dang Qui(at least on photos what i saw). It gives you more pressure on the handle and helps make strong RPB, at least for me. I found really hard to do rpb stroke more foreward and less sideways with mainly tumb pressure.

So i advice you to try a bit more shallow grip and use index and ring pair on RPB and thumb and middle on forehand, i found it much more comefortable AND extremely powerfull both in terms of spin and power on both strokes.

But it is absolutely not universal rule, just try different things and find out what's best for you

 

[BlotOnPaper]

Also if someone is interested this is how i grip. But i am a climber, so my fingers and wrists are quite strong, so pressuring feels natural and gives more power without any discomfort. I really think that rock climbing pairs extremely well with playing penhold, because intensity in TT compared to climbing is not even close if we talk about upper body power and especially wrists and fingers. I think my grip is close to Wang Hao's but probably a bit shallower. But his hands are smaller than mine so it can be just size difference.
Also i don't ever play TPB and if you want this grip is absolutely not for you. For me it is just impossible to rotate the wrist this much to play TPB.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

between the thumb and the index finger
here are images to help you:

This one has no gap

this one has gap
look at the front fingers closely

for the back fingers its a bit tough.

Let me break down this grip:
Stack your back fingers like how you do in traditional c pen
now when you use forehand or RPB ( or any other stroke that needs pressure on the thumb) keep the middle finger curled but touch the rubber with either your ring finger or both ring and pinky finger.
It may feel a bit forced at first but just touch the rubber with the remaining fingers.

Do NOT apply too much pressure from the back side fingers.

No TLDR for this post. Its pretty short, don't be lazy and read the whole thing.

Interesting proposal I must say...

His hands are on the smaller side.

I never disagreed with you cuh

Having the finger on the handle is fine. Most penhold players even pros have that happen during forehand and rpb strokes.

I'm just saying that they might be doing something else wrong that is worsened because the index is higher up because the handle is thicker.

Not for a new player.

Welcome to Zh`s second lesson.

In the first lesson we covered how you should learn TPB before RPB and how you should use both TPB and RPB to confuse the opponent.

In this lesson, I'm giving a recommendation for new penhold players:
Start with the old c pen grip (stacked fingers). Learn and master your forehand and tpb strokes before switching grips and learning rpb.

While using this grip you will notice that players who play like this make their stacked fingers touch the rubber during forehand strokes. This will look like Felix Lebrun`s grip and guess what this is Felix Lenrun`s grip.

New players tend to use grips that pros use. These grips are a bit stiff in some places and take time to develop. It hurts a lot if you want to copy someone like Xu Xin or Dang Qiu right off the bat as soon as you learn penhold.


TLDR: learn classic one sided penhold before modern penhold and use stacked fingers before using grips oriented on RPB or FH

Do join me for more lessons so that you don't waist your time with your hand hurting and looking like a total newbie.

Well for me, those two grips are the basic ones because backhand TPB and RPB still work well. I mean your proposal has good meaning to it for sure and I agree with most parts of it but for me, WH and DQ is the way to go for a beginner. In fact, I first used the XX grip (which is similar to DQ) when I first started with Jpen.

All you really need is a coach to help you develop properly. Other than that most grips should work.

p/s: of course, I shouldn't waist my time, right Zee Ache?

 

[greenbeanmachine]

So guys, I played my penhold setup today. tons of fun, yinhe pro 05 blade plays very nicely. I enjoyed penhold alot

there is one major problem I have. The side of my index finger hurts alot. its not because of sharp edges, because I sanded the wings well

so I used a grip similar to dang qiu (at least from the video material that I tried to copy). my thumb and middle and ring finger lie comfortably on the racket. to play rbp and get an open angle, I press with the the thumb. in that moment, the angle opens up but the blade wing will strongly press against my index finger which caused strong discomfort after a while. I feel like because of that grip, my index finger is always tight and because of the distance between index and middle finger (the fingers are widely stretched ), that area between these fingers is also too tight

I was able to relax my grip without the index finger pressing on the wings, but then I cant get an open rpb angle at all, making it impossible to play backhand

I am aware that the way I grip the blade must be wrong somehow. maybe I try to put my wrist too much of an angle like when playing shakehand backhand?

anyway, hope I was able to explain the problem well enough and that you can give me tips. can also post pictures of my grip if needed

I really want to find a grip that is just comfortable to play all techniques without any strain / pain. because this penhold session was super fun

cheers!

Nice! Glad to hear you had a good time.

The side of your index finger might take a while to toughen up. But it shouldn't be hurting "a lot", maybe you need to sand your wings more. I see in your photos that you sanded the wings a bit, but I hope you sanded them a lot more than that. My fingers would hurt if I used that blade from your pictures. It's not enough to just take off the sharp edge; ideally you want to make the wing pretty rounded.

Another example, I overexaggerate the grip here a little bit to highlight my problem.
When I press the thumb for RPB, my index finger naturally goes up. So I have to close it purposefully. And , it sorts of acts like a "counter balance" between the thumb and the middle and ring finger for holding the racket

From these pictures, I'd advise you to choke up on the bat. You're holding it very low on the bat, and very high on your fingers. You can push the blade much further between the index and middle finger, and this will give you more control on that side of the bat without you having to press the tip of your index finger down. Also this will be less painful for your index finger -- you have a lot more strength lower down (closer to the hand) on the index finger, compared to higher up (closer to the tip). Try to make it so that your index finger is resting on the wing at or below the middle knuckle and this should be much more comfortable.

When playing RPB, you do want the index finger to be providing most of the power. But by choking up on the bat, you can provide this power directly on the wing from lower down on your index finger, instead of from the tip. In addition to being more comfortable, this also allows you to play TPB more easily and gives you more power for RPB.

For RPB, thinking about throwing a frisbee really helps with the loop stroke. It's a little awkward to do a no-spin drive with the backhand because you need to open up the angle quite a bit -- somehow, playing loops with the backhand is easier than driving.

Well for me, those two grips are the basic ones because backhand TPB and RPB still work well. I mean your proposal has good meaning to it for sure and I agree with most parts of it but for me, WH and DQ is the way to go for a beginner.

I think the WH and DQ grip are less comfortable, but maybe I am biased. They're probably better if you want to play penhold at a high level, but I think Ma Lin's grip is both more versatile and more fun if you're just messing around.

EDIT: BTW I just saw this thread, and you can see that this racket is sanded significantly on the index finger wing. Sanding to a shape like this may also help with comfort:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/fs-ft-dhs-fang-bo-b2x-cs-chinese-penhold.37022/

 

[olive-nguyen]

Also if someone is interested this is how i grip. But i am a climber, so my fingers and wrists are quite strong, so pressuring feels natural and gives more power without any discomfort. I really think that rock climbing pairs extremely well with playing penhold, because intensity in TT compared to climbing is not even close if we talk about upper body power and especially wrists and fingers. I think my grip is close to Wang Hao's but probably a bit shallower. But his hands are smaller than mine so it can be just size difference.
Also i don't ever play TPB and if you want this grip is absolutely not for you. For me it is just impossible to rotate the wrist this much to play TPB.

View attachment 35602

View attachment 35603

To play tpb, you must unhook the thumb and press on the side of the handle, and fingers must me stacked above one another for stability, and so you can get a closed racket angle even with tpb, this isn't an easy skill at all, but practice is all it takes.

 

[olive-nguyen]

Personally, I am an in-between of Xu Xin and Ryu Seung Min's grip for forehand, Ma Lin for backhand. With jpen, my forehand is stiffer than a cpen forehand, but the backhand of jpen feels more stable to me, likely due to having the block for the thumb to rest on. Plus, it is easier to get a closed bat angle with jpen tpb than cpen tpb.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

I think the WH and DQ grip are less comfortable, but maybe I am biased. They're probably better if you want to play penhold at a high level, but I think Ma Lin's grip is both more versatile and more fun if you're just messing around.

EDIT: BTW I just saw this thread, and you can see that this racket is sanded significantly on the index finger wing. Sanding to a shape like this may also help with comfort:

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/fs-ft-dhs-fang-bo-b2x-cs-chinese-penhold.37022/

Most likely just bias xD, I much prefer these over Ma Lin (except TPB)

 

[BlotOnPaper]

To play tpb, you must unhook the thumb and press on the side of the handle, and fingers must me stacked above one another for stability, and so you can get a closed racket angle even with tpb, this isn't an easy skill at all, but practice is all it takes.

I understand the concept, but for me it's just too much hustle, because i can block with RPB. So i see no reasons to learn to play TPB if you can grasp the idea behind RPB and it's comfortable for you

 

[PenHoldSandro]

I understand the concept, but for me it's just too much hustle, because i can block with RPB. So i see no reasons to learn to play TPB if you can grasp the idea behind RPB and it's comfortable for you

Tpb is just better for the other spins, so I always suggest learning both

Ps: by other spins I mean backspin and sidespin

 

[Oliverpool]

Personally, I am an in-between of Xu Xin and Ryu Seung Min's grip for forehand, Ma Lin for backhand. With jpen, my forehand is stiffer than a cpen forehand, but the backhand of jpen feels more stable to me, likely due to having the block for the thumb to rest on. Plus, it is easier to get a closed bat angle with jpen tpb than cpen tpb.

This is the area you can consider filing to have a more comfortable pressure on your index finger. This is Dang Qiu Blade. Wang Hao also files a little in this same area.

 

[Oliverpool]

On a separate note, I managed to get both Dang Qiu and Felix signature earlier this year at Singapore Smash. Up close I can see that they both have larger hands then I have and I do have a larger hands then most Asian. So if Dang Qiu files his blade so much for comfort, I would think most of use would need to do the same. Then again, everyone’s hands is different.

 

[BlotOnPaper]

Tpb is just better for the other spins, so I always suggest learning both

Ps: by other spins I mean backspin and sidespin

Can you explain why TPB is better against backspin and sidespin? In RPB it is quiet easy to make topspin against bakspin, you have a lot of wrist mobility, so i do not understand, how TPB is better against backspin. Against sidespin i understand that you would have bigger contact space so less chance to hit fingers, but i can be wrong so i want to hear from you. I don't really have a problem againt sidespin with RPB, so for me it sounds like too much hustle, but everyone styles and problems are different

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Can you explain why TPB is better against backspin and sidespin? In RPB it is quiet easy to make topspin against bakspin, you have a lot of wrist mobility, so i do not understand, how TPB is better against backspin. Against sidespin i understand that you would have bigger contact space so less chance to hit fingers, but i can be wrong so i want to hear from you. I don't really have a problem againt sidespin with RPB, so for me it sounds like too much hustle, but everyone styles and problems are different

No I mean TPB makes it easier to make spin. For chopping, you can see that the transition does just that. For sidespin, see Ma Lin.

For against, I'd say they're equal, except backspin where RPB takes the cake

 

[olive-nguyen]

View attachment 35657

This is the area you can consider filing to have a more comfortable pressure on your index finger. This is Dang Qiu Blade. Wang Hao also files a little in this same area.

As can be seen, my bat has both wings sanded and at the bottom there is also the bottom area of the blade.

 

[olive-nguyen]

View attachment 35657

This is the area you can consider filing to have a more comfortable pressure on your index finger. This is Dang Qiu Blade. Wang Hao also files a little in this same area.

First two is my grip for forehand

This is my TPB grip, thumb unhooked resting on the side block of the blade, fingers stacked

Last two being my grip for jpen RPB.

 

[olive-nguyen]

No I mean TPB makes it easier to make spin. For chopping, you can see that the transition does just that. For sidespin, see Ma Lin.

For against, I'd say they're equal, except backspin where RPB takes the cake

As for my opinion, which to use obviously depends on the situation, but I feel block are much better with TPB. Because your fingers are on the back of the bat, it is easier to "feel" the shots, which RPB has the fingers on the same side as the rubber used, hence not being able to feel the vibrations in the linear movement as much. I've found myself able to judt block out 3rd ball attacks and the opponent having to quickly adjust to get in position for the next shot, usually weak, and gives me an opportunity to attack

 

[BlotOnPaper]

No I mean TPB makes it easier to make spin. For chopping, you can see that the transition does just that. For sidespin, see Ma Lin.

For against, I'd say they're equal, except backspin where RPB takes the cake

Oh, thank you, now i understand.

So about this usecase. It is great but would completely destroy my game structure. I have power, so i play a bit away from the table, making shots from both wings.

Chop blocks are a lot easier with TPB, but they need a lot of things around them to be effective. I'm a bit of a heavy player(83 kg, but more musceles than fat), so i don't have fast movement close to table, and a lot of times if opponent returns your chop block it requires rapid move to play the ball. And for me it brings a lot of problems.

I play somewhat close to Wang Hao, Fan Zhendong and Lin Shidong style, and i'm close to them in anthropometry. So things that TPB can give you are just not effective for me. And it's probably a case not only for me. So i'm a bit sceptical about giving everyone an advice to learn TPB

 

[Oliverpool]

As can be seen, my bat has both wings sanded and at the bottom there is also the bottom area of the blade.

I have tried jpen blade for a while and generally found them more comfortable but it somehow seems to restrict the wrist flexibility a little for me.

Have you seen Ryu Seung Min blade and how much he files the index finger side? He actually files the thumb side a whole lot as well. Can’t say I seen Jpen players filing as much.

 

[olive-nguyen]

I have tried jpen blade for a while and generally found them more comfortable but it somehow seems to restrict the wrist flexibility a little for me.

Have you seen Ryu Seung Min blade and how much he files the index finger side? He actually files the thumb side a whole lot as well. Can’t say I seen Jpen players filing as much.

I guess which that much sanding the natural blade angle would he quite closed, maybe so he doesn't have to rotate his waist as much for forehand?
As for backhand, with more sanding the natural racket angle for tpb would be smaller hence maybe improving backhand. However with this much sanding, I'm not sure about the racet integrity. We don't want our precious hinoki to snap!
Eith this level of sanding rpb would be difficult at best. Sure he doesn't have rpb, but that is the reason why i don't sand my bat as much.