Generating spin on serves

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Nov 2016
63
45
114
Its interesting that you get differing advice from coaches about the serve motion. I actually asked Brett Clark the question about tightening up the fingers on ball contact 2 days ago and he said 50% of top coaches say to do this and 50% of top coaches say to be relaxed.

There is also Mats advice about using your wrist which I think implies using your wrist muscles vs Brett Clark's method to stop the forearm movement to let the wrist flick through being relaxed. If you shadow swing Mats method I think you can not get the shake at the end of the swing. I get a higher wrist movement speed from Brett's method. I could be misunderstanding Mats advice though.

I have actually tried to return Bretts serve as he was my coach and they are very deceptive and have a huge degree of spin.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr Evil
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,821
13,211
30,389
Read 27 reviews
Hi Maurice, there is ANOTHER way so older players did back in the day and it was the TRIGGER. These players used a similar grip adjustment and use an effective short area whip (actually some less arm and less wrist)... but the difference was they had their middle finger held along the side of the blade. They would use less wrist at the end of the whip initially, but squeeze that trigger finger at the right moment after wrist gets going some... which made the wrist snap through the ball kinda sneeky.

The result was that without much of a visible forceful whip (like you see on the traditional pendulum serve) that they could get good spin. This was effective in several ways. They could control short depth and the serve did not look like it had 80-100 kind of spin (but it did have 80+) the spin looked weak, because the whip looked kinda weak... but when they tried to touch the ball over, it would go into the net and they look at their bat.

I had an English former top 50 dude show me and it is viable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TaiHaoPingPong
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,821
13,211
30,389
Read 27 reviews
Hi Maurice,

The muscles controlling the flip flop wrist and the side to side wrist are in the forearm. The ones to tighten the finger in a different band(s) on forearm.

Carl would love to break that stuff down...

I think the bigger point Carl and some other good posters made is that consciously thinking about what to tighten how in the middle of a point is tough and you end up doing something different and unintended. You learn how to do it in the days of your practicing and a progressive incremental approach makes sense.

For me, it is more effective to say consciously to myself only small things like WAIT... WAIT... NOW ! or LINE (sideline) or LOOSE or MIDDLE.

If try to consciously think any more complicated than that in a point, it will ruin things for me.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,821
13,211
30,389
Read 27 reviews
The purpose of firming up right at impact is that is how you deliver big force to the ball.

There are several obvious benefits to it... you get more power from your stroke... you can handle and overcome the spin on the ball to a large degree with your impact... it is a natural and easy response. You can also control the rebound (stronger rebound with firmer and firming grip). That might come in handy too if you are extended going to BH and need some more pace without a swing - plant foot, reach to impact, tighten up right at impact (maybe a tiny lower arm too) and you get a ball with surprising pace just like you made a swing. This shot bails me out in rallies where opponent placed the ball to my BH where it is impossible to get there in time and make a swing.

There are benefits to keeping grip loose at impact... you handle spin like a boss if grip is loose at impact... you are MORE of a boss if you can loosen the grip during impact to handle and neutralize spin... you opponent might have a tough time reading your impact (so you get errors or weaker balls to attack)... you can play more consistent (not give away points directly) under pressure.

I think the last point is a good argument to use a loose wrist at impact given a situation you decide to do that.

There are good benefits and arguments for both. It is your judgment as a player to figure out when/how to use them and how it would help or hurt you. That kind of stuff (saying you have only one right way) IMO is wrong to dictate as the only way or doctrine. You have options and they all have benefits and trade-offs. The player IMO ultimately has to discern this and figure out what is best, or safe or effective aggressive given where they are in the point and the ball given.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TaiHaoPingPong
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,821
13,211
30,389
Read 27 reviews
Its interesting that you get differing advice from coaches about the serve motion. I actually asked Brett Clark the question about tightening up the fingers on ball contact 2 days ago and he said 50% of top coaches say to do this and 50% of top coaches say to be relaxed.

There is also Mats advice about using your wrist which I think implies using your wrist muscles vs Brett Clark's method to stop the forearm movement to let the wrist flick through being relaxed. If you shadow swing Mats method I think you can not get the shake at the end of the swing. I get a higher wrist movement speed from Brett's method. I could be misunderstanding Mats advice though.

I have actually tried to return Bretts serve as he was my coach and they are very deceptive and have a huge degree of spin.


There is also Mats advice about using your wrist which I think implies using your wrist muscles... I get a higher wrist movement speed from Brett's method.

This would make one think more deeply about what is going on and how to do it, (That thought provoking is good) Brett advocates allowing wrist to keep going after stopping the lower arm. I believe that to be biomechanically sound. If Brett is not trying to accelerate the wrist further, then he is keeping forearm loose and not using the forearm muscles. It would give him an option to firm up at impact if he wanted and he surely has a fast bat already. That is a big time important thing - you need a fast bat at impact to make big spin. Going back to the forearm muscles... if Brett is not using them to make wrist go faster, that would make it easier and more consistent to get your fast bat. You would be controlling the bat speed it with your lower arm snap and stop/slowdown to let the wrist get to speed. This can be consistent when learned and that is important.

Both Matt and Brett move the upper and lower arm to position, use a short area whip to accelerate the lower arm and stop/slow it down. Matt looks like he is accelerating the wrist. This can be practiced and controlled to be consistent and have a fast bat at impact. I believe Matt is also very loose in forearm and engages only at the right time.

A big error a lot of macho man type dudes do is to tighten up early... in arm, in shoulder and it destroys control and result. Besides bat angle too open to result in too solid contact, being too tight before impact has rekt many a player's serves to go long and get killed. Almost a suicide mission.

Brett explains things in easy to understand concepts and provides effective adjustments in his advice. This is useful to any level of player. There are many players who watched dozens of serve vids without much result, but greatly improved after trying out the things Brett advocates. That is a sign of effective adult coaching.

Matt really broke down all the relevant and important aspects and phases of the serve logically and compartmented. This is hugely important to adult learners as we need to know how and why.

My personal FH pendulum short under and side/under serves use less waist than both Brett and Matt. I have a hard time timing it all, so I use less waist rotation. That would make it harder to sell the serve like they do. I sell it with a fast bat and smooth motion, so it would be harder to pickup on my variation. My biomechanic of the whip are similar to both Matt and Brett before wrist. As for the finishing, I am prolly closer to Matt's way than Brett's. I try to accelerate the wrist some. I probably use a little less wrist than Brett. Why? I am not as practiced and good as he is. I play it safer.

Another thing is point of impact on the bat. A lot of players advocate to try to impact closer to the tip where the bat moves faster. On paper, this is good, but when you are boots on ground, it is a whole new world of pain when you start missing serves trying to impact the ball on that magical last two inches of the bat zone. Werner Schlager discussed that on a vi way back in the day and confessed that he does not attempt to use the tip of bat - he said he wasn't consistent enough and he can simply get by impacting it more consistently lower (more towards sweet spot of bat) and worry about how to make a fast bat - which is what counts.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Nov 2016
63
45
114
This was Bretts exact reply to this issue. He clearly is on another level compared to my technical knowledge. Anyone want to explain his comment about leading with the elbow?

The finger tension on the racket should be optimal to make the desired pattern. I've always thought of shots as patterns. Move your racket quickly in a whip pattern and see what happens to your fingers. I think I made a video about this, now that I think about it.

Deliberately tensing up or deliberately relaxing are part of the same mistake. Coaches are probably split at 50/50 these days. 30 years ago it was all about relaxing and now there is a trend towards tensing. Let's call it 50/50 today. I don't really sit in either camp.

When people talk about tensing their fingers, my first thought is I bet they are leading the backswing with their racket rather tahan their elbow. This is an incredibly interesting topic which I will get to in my next series.

 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Dec 2018
401
427
1,398
Read 1 reviews
This was Bretts exact reply to this issue. He clearly is on another level compared to my technical knowledge. Anyone want to explain his comment about leading with the elbow?

Forehand whip action involves elbow back first and forward first, leading the rest of the kinetic chain (...elbow to forearm to wrist to hand to racket). If you lead with the racket you're pushing rather than pulling/whipping through the motion. A decent analogy is how a young child throws a baseball. Before he learns the proper technique, he pushes forward from the shoulder -- leading with the ball rather than his elbow -- like a shot put.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Nov 2016
63
45
114

Forehand whip action involves elbow back first and forward first, leading the rest of the kinetic chain (...elbow to forearm to wrist to hand to racket). If you lead with the racket you're pushing rather than pulling/whipping through the motion. A decent analogy is how a young child throws a baseball. Before he learns the proper technique, he pushes forward from the shoulder -- leading with the ball rather than his elbow -- like a shot put.

This ties in with Bretts advice to delay the backswing so the elbow is going back as the body is going forward. I looked at slow motion on his backspin forehand serve and he is clearly doing this.

 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2019
1,854
851
3,212
Read 4 reviews
Sup.
Found this video by Ti Long while casually browsing on YT

I never was taught this concept of coming to abrupt stop / snapping. I do not know how to describe this, but I think Ti Long does ok job to explain it. Implemented it in my BH serve. Made a difference. I am not sure if it is good or bad. Works wonders on my level of play. Also kinds of make recovery faster.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Takkyu_wa_inochi
Top