Help for my BH rubber needed!

[rycyt]

I figured I would answer this directly. Der_Echte's first comment sort of meant that you need to be in position and have good technique to do an over the table loop no matter what rubber you use. The technique is more important than the rubber.

Now, the pros setups are not always what is best for us, but, sometimes it helps to look at what they do for information.

All the top Chinese players use a tacky Chinese style rubber on their FOREHAND. All those same players use a NON-TACKY: GRIPPY Euro/Japanese rubber on their backhand. Why????? The way tacky rubber works is this. You have a harder sponge and a tacky topsheet. If you are more precise and just use the topsheet as you brush the ball--creating what is called topsheet or tacky spin--that goes better with the big swing of a Chinese forehand and when you do that with the giant swing of a Chinese forehand you get a lot of power and spin. But you cannot be half assed with that. If you do not finish your stroke, if you do not follow through fully, if your stroke is a half stroke, if your contact is slightly off, your shot will not be a good one. It takes a lot of precision. So, those Chinese rubbers are generally better for forehand. Can you play them on the backhand side? Yes. Of course you can. It is just harder and you have to be perfect. There is less window for error.

With a Euro/Japanese Grippy Non-Tacky or slightly tacky rubber like Tenergy or Aurus, the sponge is soft, the ball sinks in, the topsheet grabs the ball, the topsheet is not sticky but it is grippy so, when the ball sinks in, it grabs the ball because there is more ball surface on the topsheet. After the sponge is compressed by the ball sinking in, it pushes back to its original shape and while it does that, it catapults the ball out and that is where it generates the spin. That way of creating spin is called MECHANICAL spin.

Again, as Der_Echte has already implied, if you have good technique you can use pretty much anything. But, the reason mechanical spin works better for an over the table backhand loop (also called a flip, banana, or a chiquita) is that you are generating the force from a tiny stroke so if you can utilize that catapult effect and how it creates and exponential amount of spin when done with the right touch, what you get is an explosive shot that is fast and has a ton of spin, from the acceleration at the moment of impact. You could never get that level of shot on an over the table loop with a tacky rubber even if you can do the shot well enough and it is a solid shot.

So any rubber will work. But there is a real reason why the whole Chinese National Team uses Tenergy on their backhands. And there is a reason why they use DHS rubbers on their forehands.

I hope that gives you more insight into what rubbers will work better for backhand.

Wow. Definitely helped me a lot. Well, I got a Tenergy 80-FX on my backhand and Andro Rasant Grip on the forehand and it plays like a dream. Was practicing backhand flicks at one point and I would say, I managed to get maybe 70% of those in? Compared to maybe the 40% with my previous rubber. I must say, the rubber does affect it to a certain extent, but the technique is important too, which I'll be working on.

As for the Rasant Grip on my forehand, it has a lot of speed surprisingly, but was very controllable even at high speeds.

Thankfully, the Infinity VPS held up just fine, and I'm really starting to enjoy the feel of it. Large sweet spot and everything, really helps me in the backhand flicks.

 

[Der_Echte]

An additional note, even the 896 special I have an old sheet (3 yrs old) of H3 NEO, even that sheet isn't tacky. By Coincidence, that heavy 896 bat with Sigma Euro II and H3 was the bat I mostly used when I metup with Carl a couple weeks back. I wipe it with sweat and leave it without plastic protector to get rid of excess tack. Same for the bats I use 999 with. (custom glued to a sponge I like) Over tacky for those shots is not consistent nor does it feel right to me either. 1/2 tacky is right there for me to have that Chinese rubber(s) I like play a lot more Euro/Japanese.

I feel that what is really important for an effective BH flick is seeing the ball (also reading the spin), being in position on time on balance allows you to really take care of business on a BH flick. When you do that and take it top of bounce, you have the most options open to you - Power flip, medium speed high spin, medium speed low spin, fast or medium speed no spin, slow & heavy spin... all these good shots are not possible for you to use as needed based on what you see opponent doing.

Once you are in position on balance and ready to do what you want, it is just a matter of using your forward momentum to turn into power and spin using the right body/arm/wrist parts with effective timing. It is a very natural shot when you get to the spot on time, on balance, with good vision and a good idea or plan of what you want to do.

It is nice to have a good BH flick, it will give you a lot of dynamic play on that wing for serve receive and short game play. It can worry the daylights outta your opponent when he knows he will commit suicide by giving you a short underspin to your BH if you so choose to "execute" your BH flick aggressively.

However, the BH flick, while it is a nice shot to have, isn't the only BH shot in the game and one has to consider how one will employ the other BH shots when considering what equipment one want to use to optimize the present, and improve & train for the future.

We as TT players tend to OVER stress or worry about this and get too technical for our own good.

If one choose equipment that is SUITABLE for the desired style of play and has the potential to facilitate your training and future improvement, then that some great equipment. Truth is, there are MANY effective possible combinations of blade/rubbers that will work for all of us.

Myself, I know what I like and works for me. I am loyal to the type of equipment that works for my style and game and development. (Whenever I can get back to Korea or Europe) but I am always keeping my eyes and mind open to what is out there.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

An additional note, even the 896 special I have an old sheet (3 yrs old) of H3 NEO, even that sheet isn't tacky. By Coincidence, that heavy 896 bat with Sigma Euro II and H3 was the bat I mostly used when I metup with Carl a couple weeks back. I wipe it with sweat and leave it without plastic protector to get rid of excess tack. Same for the bats I use 999 with. (custom glued to a sponge I like) Over tacky for those shots is not consistent nor does it feel right to me either. 1/2 tacky is right there for me to have that Chinese rubber(s) I like play a lot more Euro/Japanese.

I feel that what is really important for an effective BH flick is seeing the ball (also reading the spin), being in position on time on balance allows you to really take care of business on a BH flick. When you do that and take it top of bounce, you have the most options open to you - Power flip, medium speed high spin, medium speed low spin, fast or medium speed no spin, slow & heavy spin... all these good shots are not possible for you to use as needed based on what you see opponent doing.

Once you are in position on balance and ready to do what you want, it is just a matter of using your forward momentum to turn into power and spin using the right body/arm/wrist parts with effective timing. It is a very natural shot when you get to the spot on time, on balance, with good vision and a good idea or plan of what you want to do.

It is nice to have a good BH flick, it will give you a lot of dynamic play on that wing for serve receive and short game play. It can worry the daylights outta your opponent when he knows he will commit suicide by giving you a short underspin to your BH if you so choose to "execute" your BH flick aggressively.

However, the BH flick, while it is a nice shot to have, isn't the only BH shot in the game and one has to consider how one will employ the other BH shots when considering what equipment one want to use to optimize the present, and improve & train for the future.

We as TT players tend to OVER stress or worry about this and get too technical for our own good.

If one choose equipment that is SUITABLE for the desired style of play and has the potential to facilitate your training and future improvement, then that some great equipment. Truth is, there are MANY effective possible combinations of blade/rubbers that will work for all of us.

Myself, I know what I like and works for me. I am loyal to the type of equipment that works for my style and game and development. (Whenever I can get back to Korea or Europe) but I am always keeping my eyes and mind open to what is out there.

Nice info.

And I did notice the H3 was what I would have called dead, because it was the tackiness was gone. But now I get why you wanted it that way. When I tried that blade I used the H3 more on my FH and the Sigma II more on my BH. 2 reasons. I have used H3 on my FH before. I have used Sigma II Euro on BH before. Both to good effect.

But I tried the H3 on BH. Did not love it but it worked. The sponge was a little too hard for my liking on the BH. But, it can be used. Sigma II Euro I can use on either wing with complete ease and facility.

Anyway, you are making a good point about the way to choose a rubber and a setup. You would not choose a rubber just for a BH flip. But, the technical reasons that make it a good rubber for a BH flip also make it a good rubber for any backhand. Unless you hit your backhand with a wildly large stroke like Kreanga, a softer rubber will give you more bang for your buck over the table, close to the table and at mid and long distance. If you are using a normal sized stroke for the BH, the soft sponge will give you more catapult and more spin. The harder sponges work for the much larger strokes of a forehand.

The European guys all have larger forehand strokes than backhand strokes but smaller forehand strokes than the Chinese. They use rubbers like Tenergy on their forehand and backhand. They usually don't use H3 or TG3 (DHS rubbers). Their strokes are not big enough to where the Chinese rubbers would be as effective for them. They could use them but they would need to adjust their strokes.

I used to use H3. But my stroke was too big and my reset was too slow as a result. Therefore I changed to, first, Xiom Omega IV Pro on my FH, then Sigma II Pro on FH, then Tenergy 05 on my FH. All worked fine. And what they did was help me cut down my stroke and get my reset much faster.

So, the rubber you use for either side should be based on your game and your needs. But, often we get what we want and perhaps that is okay as long it is close enough to what will be best for us.

@ rycyt: It looks like you have done a good job getting a good setup for yourself. Great work.

 

[Der_Echte]

The somewhat hardish sponge is on the H3 NEO (broken in 3 yrs used sheet) is OK for my kind of BH. The half tack gives me a little spin on some slower strokes and the hard sponge and the blade give me one really mean kick when I decide to let loose a BH with a very fast bat speed, whether that is a heavy slow opening loop or power BH. I see the ball well on BH wing so I can use a "regular" Euro/Japanese rubber or Chinese one if some of the sponge hardness and tack are removed. Modern Chinese rubbers do not really follow this pattern any more and we gotta try them one by one to know them.

The new bat of rycyt is clearly a bat that has a potential for a current and future flexible 2 wing looping attack style of play.

 

[rycyt]

Cheers guys. Really looking forward to improving my skills further but limited only by time as I'm only able to play once a week. Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's help here!