Help me understand the difference in blades and rubbers?

[Elmerinho]

Hi!

I have started playing again after 25 years and the equipment game has changed and evolved.

I started out buying a stiga allround classic cybershape with friendship 729 fx rubbers. Had a hard time dealing with the opponents spin. On the forehand it felt like I didn't have time and had to return the shot early to get it up and over the net.

I got to borrow a frindes blade. The butterfly magic maze (not sure if it was standard or advanced) with coppa silver platin turbo on the FH. All of the sudden it felt like i had a lot more time to hit my fh and could easily get the ball over the net even from below the table with enough topspin.

I went to a shop that put together a blade for me with a gewo allround blade and gewo el pro 43 rubbers on both sides. It is better for me than the allround classic but still it feels slow and harder to work with. Why is that?

I am a beginner+ at best and know the techniques but have a bit of a heavy touch instead of a brushing technique.

Sorry for the long post. Any advice would be helpful and equipment ideas are welcome.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Donic Coppa JO series are pretty fast, faster than the Nexxus 43 for sure. What you're probably experiencing is finding out that you lack good fundamentals to support shot making ability when using slower stuff that requires more physical activity. I'd keep using the Gewo combo and start figuring out how to build a solid technique

 

[Elmerinho]

Donic Coppa JO series are pretty fast, faster than the Nexxus 43 for sure. What you're probably experiencing is finding out that you lack good fundamentals to support shot making ability when using slower stuff that requires more physical activity. I'd keep using the Gewo combo and start figuring out how to build a solid technique

Thanks, that is interesting. So what you are saying is that more physical activity is good? I was taught (25 years ago) that smaller and tighter movements are better. Avoid doing tennis movements.

 

[Tyce]

Thanks, that is interesting. So what you are saying is that more physical activity is good? I was taught (25 years ago) that smaller and tighter movements are better. Avoid doing tennis movements.

With nuance that's correct. There's no need for giant backswings, but it's generally considered better to start with longer movements to learn how to hit a ball effectively.
A forehand drive, for example, would start somewhere just before the body, and ends with the bat in front of your face. With that size of movement, you can learn how accelerating throughout the motion affects the speed, and use angles to learn how to grab&sling a ball with the rubber.

Making the strokes more compact is a phase beyond that, and will aid in recovery (getting ready for the next ball) as well as allowing a margin to play with faster equipment. It comes at the cost of control and feeling though, and as such it's better to learn that after you are very comfortable with the slower gear.

 

[Lazer]

Thanks, that is interesting. So what you are saying is that more physical activity is good? I was taught (25 years ago) that smaller and tighter movements are better. Avoid doing tennis movements.

They are but not far away from the table there you will need to swing long and hard to get enough power.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Elmerinho]

With nuance that's correct. There's no need for giant backswings, but it's generally considered better to start with longer movements to learn how to hit a ball effectively.
A forehand drive, for example, would start somewhere just before the body, and ends with the bat in front of your face. With that size of movement, you can learn how accelerating throughout the motion affects the speed, and use angles to learn how to grab&sling a ball with the rubber.

Making the strokes more compact is a phase beyond that, and will aid in recovery (getting ready for the next ball) as well as allowing a margin to play with faster equipment. It comes at the cost of control and feeling though, and as such it's better to learn that after you are very comfortable with the slower gear.

I see. This is the part I can't get my head around. Why is this easier for me with faster gear? I feel like I am in more control over my actions with my friends blade than my own due to it giving me more time and also allowing me to grab the ball later rather than sooner. I have no problem generating the enough topspin or backspin to get the ball where I want, it just feels like I have more time with faster gear. Does that make sense?

 

[Elmerinho]

They are but not far away from the table there you will need to swing long and hard to get enough power.

Cheers
L-zr

That is true but when I am far away I have more time even with my slower blade.

 

[Lazer]

That is true but when I am far away I have more time even with my slower blade.

It’s the same for everybody. You need to train. After each stroke it’s important to get back to the neutral position. Don’t linger to enjoy a good stroke, return to the neutral positions without delay…
From that position it will take the least time to alternate between FH and BH.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Tyce]

I see. This is the part I can't get my head around. Why is this easier for me with faster gear? I feel like I am in more control over my actions with my friends blade than my own due to it giving me more time and also allowing me to grab the ball later rather than sooner. I have no problem generating the enough topspin or backspin to get the ball where I want, it just feels like I have more time with faster gear. Does that make sense?

Slower gear > longer movements > more force > less time to recover
Faster gear > shorter movements > less force > more time to recover (AT THE SAME PACE)

The big caveat here comes once you start facing faster opponents, are out of place, those kind of things you encounter in a match. If your gear is too fast you won't be able to control the shots.

But all of this is theoretical ofc. There is always a chance you just have the experience you need from tennis and are able to apply it quickly to TT. I can't tell that from text

 

[Elmerinho]

It’s the same for everybody. You need to train. After each stroke it’s important to get back to the neutral position. Don’t linger to enjoy a good stroke, return to the neutral positions without delay…
From that position it will take the least time to alternate between FH and BH.

Cheers
L-zr

Absolutely, I agree. That's what I am teaching my 8 year old who just started out. I just learned about how in the US there is a ranking system for players of every level. We did not have that when I started out here in Sweden 🙂

 

[Elmerinho]

Slower gear > longer movements > more force > less time to recover
Faster gear > shorter movements > less force > more time to recover (AT THE SAME PACE)

The big caveat here comes once you start facing faster opponents, are out of place, those kind of things you encounter in a match. If your gear is too fast you won't be able to control the shots.

But all of this is theoretical ofc. There is always a chance you just have the experience you need from tennis and are able to apply it quickly to TT. I can't tell that from text

That might be down to English not being my first language and me not describing it correctly. I never played tennis, it is just an example of how I was taught to think when I learned to play here in Sweden 🙂

 

[enoxzr]

Your initial setup was quite fine, but maybe other rubbers are needed, the Allround Classis is a more than decent blade.

I'd suggest getting some modern beginner rubbers like Xiom Vega Intro instead of the Friendship rubbers. They shouldn't feel hard and behave in a modern way.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hi!

I have started playing again after 25 years and the equipment game has changed and evolved.

I started out buying a stiga allround classic cybershape with friendship 729 fx rubbers. Had a hard time dealing with the opponents spin. On the forehand it felt like I didn't have time and had to return the shot early to get it up and over the net.

I got to borrow a frindes blade. The butterfly magic maze (not sure if it was standard or advanced) with coppa silver platin turbo on the FH. All of the sudden it felt like i had a lot more time to hit my fh and could easily get the ball over the net even from below the table with enough topspin.

I went to a shop that put together a blade for me with a gewo allround blade and gewo el pro 43 rubbers on both sides. It is better for me than the allround classic but still it feels slow and harder to work with. Why is that?

I am a beginner+ at best and know the techniques but have a bit of a heavy touch instead of a brushing technique.

Sorry for the long post. Any advice would be helpful and equipment ideas are welcome.

I have read what everyone else has posted. I am going to present a different perspective.

Why don't you just get exactly what your friend has and go from there. If you like that setup and it feels like it really works for you, you may as well.

As far as more compact strokes and bigger strokes, if you can topspin the ball onto the table when the ball is below table height, your technique is solid enough.

Slower gear > longer movements > more force > less time to recover

The above statement is actually NOT entirely correct. You do not NEED larger movements with slower gear. What you ACTUALLY NEED is more impact force into the ball (more power). The length of the stroke does not necessarily translate into more power. When someone's mechanics are good, it can. But if your mechanics are not solid and the actions of your legs, hips, torso and arm are NOT timed well to the impact of the blade face with the ball, then you could just end up with a lot of wasted effort in your stroke.

But when someone has good stroke mechanics, they can make a very compact stroke and really put a lot of power into the ball.

One of the benefits to training with a slower setup for A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME IS: if your stroke mechanics are not quite good, you will not be imparting a lot of power into the ball and the setup will feel slow. If you train with that, it can get a player to sort out how to time, legs, hips, core rotation, weight transfer and arm movement to more efficiently pop the power into the ball on impact. And then when you move to a faster setup while having those good mechanics, you will really be able to get more from that faster setup.

However, if your stroke mechanics are good enough for you to get a topspin shot to arc onto the table from lower than table height, or even from a decent amount lower than net height, odds are, you are doing something right in how you contact the ball and how you spin the ball. So, in my opinion, the work and "struggle" of spending a few months using a slow setup to see if you can make it so you can put more power into your shots more efficiently, more effectively, is one that is a choice you could choose to make or choose not to make since you already do know enough of how to spin the ball that a faster setup would likely be fine for you.

And, these days with the new, bigger, heavier, slower ball (40+ Poly Ball), setups for learning can be faster than in the old days because of the limitations the poly ball places on the amount of spin and speed present in today's game.

Theoretically, you can do either.
1) Go out and get the racket you feel works for you right now, that your friend already has.
2) Or stick with what you have for a few months to see if it helps you learn to time the full body mechanics of the stroke better so you learn how to put more power into the contact of the ball on impact while spinning the ball.

A final note: it is worth being able to have a compact stroke. It is also worth being able to make a bigger stroke. With both, if the movements of the whole body are timed well, you should be transferring power into the ball effectively.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Carl's response is much more detailed than what I was going to say, but I'll say it anyway: just play with whatever setup makes you most comfortable and lets you make the shots you want consistently. Slower vs. faster comes down mostly to personal preference and feeling imo.

On a related note, I've always wondered where the conventional wisdom that everyone should start with slow equipment came from. In tennis, for example, beginners rackets are typically light (but head-heavy), and powerful, while advanced players often use heavier (but head-lighter), slower rackets with more feeling and control (although some advanced players also prefer powerful rackets). I've rarely heard the idea that a beginning tennis player will be hampered in developing their technique because their racket is too powerful. In fact, powerful rackets are typically considered more forgiving because they have a larger sweet spot.

So I guess this comes back to the main point: play with whatever racket is most comfortable and easy for you to use. For some reason, easy-to-use has been equated to slow among online table tennis advice-givers. But it is not so simple, and at the end of the day you know yourself and your own feeling best.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Carl's response is much more detailed than what I was going to say, but I'll say it anyway: just play with whatever setup makes you most comfortable and lets you make the shots you want consistently. Slower vs. faster comes down mostly to personal preference and feeling imo.

On a related note, I've always wondered where the conventional wisdom that everyone should start with slow equipment came from. In tennis, for example, beginners rackets are typically light (but head-heavy), and powerful, while advanced players often use heavier (but head-lighter), slower rackets with more feeling and control (although some advanced players also prefer powerful rackets). I've rarely heard the idea that a beginning tennis player will be hampered in developing their technique because their racket is too powerful. In fact, powerful rackets are typically considered more forgiving because they have a larger sweet spot.

So I guess this comes back to the main point: play with whatever racket is most comfortable and easy for you to use. For some reason, easy-to-use has been equated to slow among online table tennis advice-givers. But it is not so simple, and at the end of the day you know yourself and your own feeling best.

In tennis the court is much bigger. You have to hit the ball pretty hard to hit it out. Beginners may not have that happen so frequently.

Table tennis, the table is a little bit smaller. If your opponent gives you topspin it is pretty easy to hit the ball long. When a newer players is using high level equipment for the first time, especially faster equipment, they often have to cut down their stroke to keep the ball from flying off the table.

But the information about slower equipment for lower level players who want to develop is also much more related to back when the ball was 38mm and 40mm and made of celluloid and the ball went much faster and with notably more spin. Back in the 38mm days particularly, equipment that was pretty fast was hard to handle. Back then 10 of the top 10 players in the world used 5 ply wood blades. When the ball was 40mm celluloid, 8 of the top 10 used all wood. Now, today, pretty much all the top players use composite blades that are notably faster than what players used to use.

The issue of the speed of the equipment for a new player is less of a factor today because the 40+ Poly Ball is so much slower, heavier, and gets so much less spin than even the 40mm celluloid ball did.

But if you ever get a chance and get your hands on a 38mm celluloid 3 star ball from back in the day, have a little hit with it and see how it feels to knock the ball around with one of those. You will be astounded at how much faster that ball flies and how much more spin you can put on it.

So, yeah, today, the speed of the racket, the information that is often given about slower rackets for developing technique is a little outdated.

But it still will help a player learn how to fine tune mechanics and make their strokes more effective to use a slower setup for a few months, because, to really get the ball moving with that slower setup, everything has to be timed perfectly so you are transferring as much power into the ball on contact as you can. When you get good at that and then go back to a setup that is a more reasonable speed for the 40+ ball, you will be amazed how much more you get out of the faster setup than you did before.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Hi!

I have started playing again after 25 years and the equipment game has changed and evolved.

I started out buying a stiga allround classic cybershape with friendship 729 fx rubbers. Had a hard time dealing with the opponents spin. On the forehand it felt like I didn't have time and had to return the shot early to get it up and over the net.

I got to borrow a frindes blade. The butterfly magic maze (not sure if it was standard or advanced) with coppa silver platin turbo on the FH. All of the sudden it felt like i had a lot more time to hit my fh and could easily get the ball over the net even from below the table with enough topspin.

I went to a shop that put together a blade for me with a gewo allround blade and gewo el pro 43 rubbers on both sides. It is better for me than the allround classic but still it feels slow and harder to work with. Why is that?

I am a beginner+ at best and know the techniques but have a bit of a heavy touch instead of a brushing technique.

Sorry for the long post. Any advice would be helpful and equipment ideas are welcome.

The gewo allround and pro 43 are noob friendly. Don't think too much about equipment anymore. It is more of a skill issue at this juncture. Get a coach if you want to improve fast or just play normally as a Hobby player and just enjoy the slow journey.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

In tennis the court is much bigger. You have to hit the ball pretty hard to hit it out. Beginners may not have that happen so frequently.

Table tennis, the table is a little bit smaller. If your opponent gives you topspin it is pretty easy to hit the ball long. When a newer players is using high level equipment for the first time, especially faster equipment, they often have to cut down their stroke to keep the ball from flying off the table.

Right, I totally agree. I would say my point was that the principle of what equipment beginners should use is actually the same in both tennis and table tennis. But it's not about slow vs. fast, it's about fault-tolerance and being easy to use. I would wager that the vast majority of players learn better (and just have more fun) when they can consistently get the ball in and then learn to play around with spin and power, rather than trying to learn spin and power while it's challenging to even get the ball in.

Applying that principle to tennis and table tennis explains why beginners start with different styles of equipment. In tennis, it can be hard to even hit the ball over the net for beginners, so more powerful rackets are more forgiving. In the 38 and 40 mm ball eras in table tennis, it was too easy to hit the ball out with fast equipment, so slow rackets were more forgiving. But it's been the 40+ era for about 10 years, and it's not obvious that the slow stuff from before is actually easier to use. And OP is clearly telling us they have an easier time using somewhat faster equipment. But so many people are still just reflexively telling them and other beginners to use slow stuff without thinking about the reason why.

 

[Colestt]

Did anyone mention that 729 fx is ridiculously tacky and will be very reactive to spin.

The later grab you describe is a characteristic of Japanese type rubber.

 

[Colestt]

Pairing with an allaround would amplify the problem. That rubber was made for a thick, hard maple blade

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

i tried to look for that particular ad but to no avail. It is a pic of Simon Gauzy and a tag line that says: Rasenter C53 for me, C48 for the rest of you or something similar to that effect. Although it is purely a marketing tag-line, it aptly convey the message, that is, leave the hard ones to the pro and us amateur just be happy with the regular version. TT is hard as it is; don't make it hellish!