Hinoki blades with Chinese rubbers?

[Manto76]

I am still exploring Chinese rubbers and have a question for those who have more experience with them than I do:

Why isn't the combination of Chinese rubbers with Hinoki blades more popular? What I'm thinking is that Hinoki outer-ply blades (let's go with Joola Rossi Emotion as an example) are known for having a mild catapult effect 'built in' to the blade. On the other hand, Chinese rubbers (let's say DHS H3 Neo) are known to be very linear, and one of the typical complaints heard about them is that there is no (or very little) catapult effect which (though that has its upsides) means that they can be quite hard work to play.

So why aren't Chinese rubbers more often paired with Hinoki-outer blades?

For example, I've seen a number of folks pair the Joola Rossi Emotion with with lively rubbers (eg. MX-P or T05), but never with a Chinese rubber. Likewise, I know a number of players who use DHS H3 Neo, but all with Koto or Limba-outer blades.

Do Chinese rubbers need a harder 'base' to compress the sponge against? Or is it just that Stiga (whose blades, I am told, are very popular in the Chinese market) don't make any Hinoki blades and so the combination never caught on? Some other reason? I'd be interested to hear from those who know more about this. Thanks in advance!

 

[Gozo Aruna]

OK I'll bite and give my response. I could be wrong, but bear with me.

In a nutshell, it could be due to the fact there are no very successful player historically that uses chinese rubber on one ply hinoki to start that trend.

1. Historically I believe that most of those one ply hinoki users are Japan & Korean players and they were using the JPen version.

2. Traditionally Japanese & Korean players uses Japanese rubber; most likely Butterfly product like Sriver and then Tenergy when it is available mass market. I doubt these players would use chinese rubber.

3. I'll leave the science mumbo-jumbo to those who are more knowledgeable to explain as mine is more of an empirical observation on my part.

 

[CLV]

I´m playing unboosted Battle 2 on a innerforce SDC blade with hinoki outer ply.

It´s great

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-A405FN met Tapatalk

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

I've known a few who have used Hinoki/Chinese style rubber, like Amultart/H3 or 729FX on a single ply jpen, at the end of the day it boils down to personal preference. But my two cents is that people who use Chinese rubber tend to prefer them for looping over driving, and most Hinoki blades are built thick and stiff to support a drive style topspin rather than a loop style topspin

 

[Gozo Aruna]

I've known a few who have used Hinoki/Chinese style rubber, like Amultart/H3 or 729FX on a single ply jpen, at the end of the day it boils down to personal preference. But my two cents is that people who use Chinese rubber tend to prefer them for looping over driving, and most Hinoki blades are built thick and stiff to support a drive style topspin rather than a loop style topspin

I am very intrigued by your statement that I have bolded in part, that is to say: Drive style topspin versus loop style topspin.

For the education of the masses, are you able to provide YT video of the difference between the two style of topspin?

Your statement trigger my memory of what my coach said some time ago. He said, " Gozo, you do not have to pull your arm so much to the rear. Your blade is powerful enough with in-built trampoline effect. Add that with my MX-P ( at that time I was using MX-P ), you have a very powerful weapon in your hand. A little touch and waist twist and the ball will fly forward with great speed. " Maybe he was referring to me to play a more drive style topspin? What do you say? Is he correct?

p/s my natural tendency is to pull the ball aka loop.

 

[Lazer]

A loop is more of a brush, a drive is more of a penetrating hit. I used to only consider brushed loops as real loops (and still do to a certain extent).
Using my definition most loops are actually topspin drives.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[Gozo Aruna]

A loop is more of a brush, a drive is more of a penetrating hit. I used to only consider brushed loops as real loops (and still do to a certain extent).
Using my definition most loops are actually topspin drives.

Cheers
L-zr

I love your definition. It is easy to distinguish the two topspin style. My natural tendency is to brush every ball but counter intuitively my coach prefers me to hit drive style instead. Now that another poster said Hinoki is more suited for duraibo / drive style, now I can understand more why he said what he said.

I wish my coach would explain the reasoning behind his instruction rather than just tell me do this or that.

 

[Zwill]

I wonder why isn't any pro player using hinoki top ply with Chinese rubbers.

I wonder why so handful of pro players use hinoki top plied blades at all.

 

[SFF_lib]

Every combination is possible. It’s just not many people favour that.

I paired my Darker Speed 90 with TG3 and H3. I liked them really well as Chinese rubber helped my short game. But I usually go with 39 degree sponge so I can still feel the hinoki

 

[East Side Rob]

I use Hurricane 3 with a Darker seven-ply all-Hinoki blade. It's a great combination for top spin, but it's not ideal for flat hits. However, the top-spinning is so good, I was willing to pretty much abandon flat hitting, even though it means meeting lobs on the rise and loop-killing the ball.

It also isn't great for passive blocking since the rubber-blade combination requires putting some sort of rotation on the ball, otherwise the ball tends to act like a knuckleball and is hard to control. But a more active block — almost akin to counter-hitting — with a bit of top spin solves that problem. Again, I found the upside outweighed the downside because the top spin is just terrific.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

I use Hurricane 3 with a Darker seven-ply all-Hinoki blade. It's a great combination for top spin, but it's not ideal for flat hits. However, the top-spinning is so good, I was willing to pretty much abandon flat hitting, even though it means meeting lobs on the rise and loop-killing the ball.

It also isn't great for passive blocking since the rubber-blade combination requires putting some sort of rotation on the ball, otherwise the ball tends to act like a knuckleball and is hard to control. But a more active block — almost akin to counter-hitting — with a bit of top spin solves that problem. Again, I found the upside outweighed the downside because the top spin is just terrific.

This just sounds like some of the downfalls of Chinese rubbers in general. Have you used H3 on many other blades?

 

[East Side Rob]

No, I used three-ply hinoki blades for decades and perhaps four years ago moved to the slower seven-ply (which I know sounds weird because more plies usually means more speed, but not when the blade is thinner overall).

About six months later, I moved from Yasaka Rakza 7 to H3 to slow my game down a bit and get more bite on my top spin. Not sure how the H3 would perform on my old 8.3 mm thick hinoki three-ply blades versus the 6.5 mm thick seven-ply blade I use now. But I'm happy with the current blade-rubber combination.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Looking for opinions. Has anyone tried using One Ply Hinoki with the more modern harder tensor rubber? E.g., Tenergy 05 Hard, MX-P50, Rasenter R53, Donic M1Turbo. All these newer ESN tensor are in the 50 degree hardness range. What is your experience like?

My EJ symptoms are acting up again.

Must resist.... resistance is futile.

 

[Wakkibatty]

Looking for opinions. Has anyone tried using One Ply Hinoki with the more modern harder tensor rubber? E.g., Tenergy 05 Hard, MX-P50, Rasenter R53, Donic M1Turbo. All these newer ESN tensor are in the 50 degree hardness range. What is your experience like?

My EJ symptoms are acting up again.

Must resist.... resistance is futile.

Speaking purely for myself, I find that with a one-ply blade, 44-48 degree hardness is the sweet spot... It's very much a Goldilocks thing for me.

Softer sponge around the 38-40-42 mark is a bit TOO soft, as they tend to absorb too much of the impact forces, and it all feels a bit 'mushy'... you just don't get that buttery feedback goodness through the blade with every stroke, and it actually tends to slow the blade down a bit too.

The really hard rubbers however (50+ degrees) are too much of a good thing for me - they feel great when hitting hard, but the hardness of the sponge can actually detract from the amount of vibration that reaches the wooden core with your softer shots as well. So once again, the impact vibrations don't reach the wood properly, and playing feel inevitably suffers.

For me, to really get that great soft playing feel and enormous feedback only a one-ply blade can deliver, you need your rubber to kind of 'compliment' the wood's mechanical properties... For me at least, that means a mid-hard rubber that offers just the right amount of resistance to impact.

Having said that, as always, it all comes down to the individual... both the individual player, and the individual blade. When I'm the one swinging them, my personal thicker one-ply blades (8.5mm - 9.1mm) all like rubbers in the 44-48 degree range most of all... My thinner one ply blades however (6.7mm - 8.0mm) all seem to prefer things a trifle softer at around 44-46 mark.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Speaking purely for myself, I find that with a one-ply blade, 44-48 degree hardness is the sweet spot... It's very much a Goldilocks thing for me.

Softer sponge around the 38-40-42 mark is a bit TOO soft, as they tend to absorb too much of the impact forces, and it all feels a bit 'mushy'... you just don't get that buttery feedback goodness through the blade with every stroke, and it actually tends to slow the blade down a bit too.

The really hard rubbers however (50+ degrees) are too much of a good thing for me - they feel great when hitting hard, but the hardness of the sponge can actually detract from the amount of vibration that reaches the wooden core with your softer shots as well. So once again, the impact vibrations don't reach the wood properly, and playing feel inevitably suffers.

For me, to really get that great soft playing feel and enormous feedback only a one-ply blade can deliver, you need your rubber to kind of 'compliment' the wood's mechanical properties... For me at least, that means a mid-hard rubber that offers just the right amount of resistance to impact.

Having said that, as always, it all comes down to the individual... both the individual player, and the individual blade. When I'm the one swinging them, my personal thicker one-ply blades (8.5mm - 9.1mm) all like rubbers in the 44-48 degree range most of all... My thinner one ply blades however (6.7mm - 8.0mm) all seem to prefer things a trifle softer at around 44-46 mark.

I personally like the MX-P on my FH and MX-P is listed as 47.5 ESN hardness score. I have tried using Donic Bluefire M1 ( also 47.5 on my BH ) and it works great! That is why I am trying to be a bit adventurous and I am thinking of using a harder, say MX-P50 on FH. I wonder will it be too much ( Overkill? ) .... I wonder.

Since the 47.5 works nicely on my FH & BH, I am thinking of MX-P on both side, but I read somewhere it is more beneficial for one to use a harder +2 degrees on one's FH. Hence I am contemplating MX-P normal on BH and MX-P50 for FH use.

 

[lodro]

I personally like the MX-P on my FH and MX-P is listed as 47.5 ESN hardness score. I have tried using Donic Bluefire M1 ( also 47.5 on my BH ) and it works great! That is why I am trying to be a bit adventurous and I am thinking of using a harder, say MX-P50 on FH. I wonder will it be too much ( Overkill? ) .... I wonder.

And here is another item I will ban the very day I will be elected to be emperor of the universe : " No more dual scales for sponge hardness".
I am bloody serious.

 

[WingTT]

The Hinoki Chinese rubber combination is not popular because manufactureres tend to make fewer blades with Hinoki due to cost and availability. The pros while growing up probably did not start with a Hinoki blade as they tend to be more expensive but a Limba or Koto topped ones instead and so those became popular. Hinoki with the right blade design could work very well with Chinese rubbers.

 

[Wakkibatty]

I personally like the MX-P on my FH and MX-P is listed as 47.5 ESN hardness score. I have tried using Donic Bluefire M1 ( also 47.5 on my BH ) and it works great! That is why I am trying to be a bit adventurous and I am thinking of using a harder, say MX-P50 on FH. I wonder will it be too much ( Overkill? ) .... I wonder.

Since the 47.5 works nicely on my FH & BH, I am thinking of MX-P on both side, but I read somewhere it is more beneficial for one to use a harder +2 degrees on one's FH. Hence I am contemplating MX-P normal on BH and MX-P50 for FH use.

I quite like the MX-P myself TBH, but I rarely play with it - being both a massive equipment junkie AND a blademaker means I more-often put any spare funds towards buying obscure woods for future builds, rather than regularly buying myself top-flight rubbers.

Mixing springy Tensor-style rubbers with a springy one-ply may be too much of a good thing, but it depends on the individual blade in question - some one-ply blades are springier than others, with most of mine being of the super-springy variety. The hardest rubbers I've had on one of my springier blades most recently, is a toss-up between the Loki Rxton 3 Blue or the Loki T3 - both are very hard (circa 50 degrees) with the T3 just edging out the Rxton 3 Blue for hardness, but not by much. I really liked both these rubbers frankly, but they were both a bit too hard and heavy for my personal taste to use on a one-ply. They feel far more at home on a seven-ply wood or soft inner-carbon blade, or any other blade that doesn't have that super lively feel of a one-ply.

On a side note, the Loki T3 is a very hard-sponged euro-style rocket launcher of a rubber frankly, so if hard FH rubbers on a springy one-ply really are your thing, you might like to have a look at that one as well.... its great value for money and is seriously underrated as a rubber.

If the T3 had better levels of spin out of the box, it would be hugely popular, but you've really got to play it in fiercely before it softens up enough for the spin levels to become acceptable. This frankly can take a while, and I suspect most people simply don't bother to wait that long. It is a definite must-try though if you're seeking longevity from a rubber as well as speed - when an MX-P is just beginning to wear out, a Loki T3 is just finishing its warm-up. (Actually...seeing as its finally played in now, I might try it back on a one-ply again, see how it goes).

 

[lodro]

I quite like the MX-P myself TBH, but I rarely play with it - being both a massive equipment junkie AND a blademaker means I more-often put any spare funds towards buying obscure woods for future builds, rather than regularly buying myself top-flight rubbers.

Mixing springy Tensor-style rubbers with a springy one-ply may be too much of a good thing, but it depends on the individual blade in question - some one-ply blades are springier than others, with most of mine being of the super-springy variety. The hardest rubbers I've had on one of my springier blades most recently, is a toss-up between the Loki Rxton 3 Blue or the Loki T3 - both are very hard (circa 50 degrees) with the T3 just edging out the Rxton 3 Blue for hardness, but not by much. I really liked both these rubbers frankly, but they were both a bit too hard and heavy for my personal taste to use on a one-ply. They feel far more at home on a seven-ply wood or soft inner-carbon blade, or any other blade that doesn't have that super lively feel of a one-ply.

On a side note, the Loki T3 is a very hard-sponged euro-style rocket launcher of a rubber frankly, so if hard FH rubbers on a springy one-ply really are your thing, you might like to have a look at that one as well.... its great value for money and is seriously underrated as a rubber.

If the T3 had better levels of spin out of the box, it would be hugely popular, but you've really got to play it in fiercely before it softens up enough for the spin levels to become acceptable. This frankly can take a while, and I suspect most people simply don't bother to wait that long. It is a definite must-try though if you're seeking longevity from a rubber as well as speed - when an MX-P is just beginning to wear out, a Loki T3 is just finishing its warm-up. (Actually...seeing as its finally played in now, I might try it back on a one-ply again, see how it goes).

Loki makes their rubbers very hard. I only have experience with Rxton5. 1 layer of seamoon transforms the cardboard-like sponge into a very useful hard rubber. It outlasts H3 with ease.

1 thing I will not forgive Loki though, when they changed the blue cover they advertised it as : New cover - same rubber. IT IS NOT.
They must have found another manufacturer that makes the rubbers cheaper.

 

[Wakkibatty]

Loki makes their rubbers very hard. I only have experience with Rxton5. 1 layer of seamoon transforms the cardboard-like sponge into a very useful hard rubber. It outlasts H3 with ease.

1 thing I will not forgive Loki though, when they changed the blue cover they advertised it as : New cover - same rubber. IT IS NOT.
They must have found another manufacturer that makes the rubbers cheaper.

Yeah, Loki did the same thing with the Rxton 3 blue - radically different topsheet and sponge, but given the same name as the regular rubber due to their common pimple architecture... but with the R3Blue, it also made it a better rubber.The R3 was always pretty good, but the R3 Blue is a cracker! 😎 Very fast, spinny, and tacky with a good short game, but just like the T3 you need to play it in heavily to see it at its best (..and, just like the R5, it's far superior in both performance and longevity to a stock-standard H3).