I think almost all of your anger towards me comes from your inbaility to appraoch the spreadsheet I posted earlier with an openmind
http://dittf.atwebpages.com/sp/s7.htm
But it is OK. I understand.
I want to try short pips, what racket should I build for this?
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I would certainly be willing to approach the spreadsheet with an open mind...but to paraphraser Carl Sagan, I'm not going to have such an open mind that my brain falls out! So, in order to give this spreadsheet proper consideration, can you show how you have objectively arrived at the ratings contained in the spreadsheet? Can you give us some insight into the sorts of experiments that were conducted to actually test rubber types and objectively measure them against the desired parameters? How many participants were involved in the experiments, what was their playing level etc. I presume you would only test a particular rubber type with someone that was competent to use them (no point in asking a two-winged looper to test a long pimple as clearly they're not going to be able to do the rubber justice). And on that note, I notice that the spreadsheet only talks very generically about the rubber types...but as we all know there are quite a lot of variations even within a specific category type...so which specific "make and model" of rubbers did you test in each category? You should definitely state this on your spreadsheet to define the scope of your undertakings.
As things stand at the moment, your spreadsheet proposes a rating system and then makes some comments/remarks....but we have no way of assessing the validity of any of this; you could have simply made up those ratings in order to support the position you wish to promote. Also, the spreadsheet appears to be incomplete as there are lots of blank boxes. Is testing still underway in those areas?
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I agree with you that this spreadsheet is somewhat incomplete. This is based on my years & year of experience in the sport (other sports like tennis etc.) I am not going to be able to precisely explain every single cell and defend myself but was written just to give a general idea. As for teats & experiments this is based on my many many iterations of using these rubbers back and forth in leagues & tournaments & designing rackets for other players. I know I will be viciously attacked anyway & why.
For example in another test I performed a comparison test of high aspect ratio super long pips against the long pips on ITTF LARC that are garbage in the 40+ plastic ball era. I explained this test in another post. This was against mostly 1900 to 2300 loopers that were available in my area for me to test and out of about 15 to 20 players only 2 or 3 passed my torture test & nobody passed by twiddle test. I would like to test with players over 2300 and I am sure the % players who will pass my torture test will slightly improve. But my point is not exact statistics. My point is how useless the ITTF LARC long pips in the 40+ ball era. There were other similar practical tests over the years.
This spreadsheet is not trying prove that every cell is a perfect value. This is just for players to have a general thought process going. Take it for whatever worth and I don't exactly expect a medal or win a popularity contest
I will try to keep improving it & updating it as I get time or inclination but I doubt it.
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So would it be fair to say that pretty much all of the information contained on the spreadsheet (the ratings given and the commentary included) relates to your own personal experience with the rubbers? If so, this isn’t really an objective set of results gained from scientific testing across a population of test subjects; it’s basically just a summary of your own personal experiences with playing with the various rubbers…such that if someone else were to carry out the same tests they could come to a very different set of conclusions.
Ok whatver you say.
You win. I am just trolling aimlessly
I am not going to go in circle again & again. I said take ir or leave it for whatever it is worth
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I'd recommend Jolie the OP to ignore James' personal experience, seriously. OR you will get confused so much that you may not want to play table tennis again lol.
True story. In my club there is a player who used to be a 2300 rating player in US. He had very good forehand and a decent good BH loop to set up for his strong FH. When he got older and slower in his 60's he got beaten badly with a younger left-handed folk who uses LP on BH and SH on FH. This is because he is too slow to move and use his FH when the LH pip player chopblocks his LP to his BH. It is difficult to do a decent BH loop with such heavy underspin chopblock so he must return the ball with a weak return then the lefty can kill the ball with a vicious FH. So, he now switches to short pips on his BH in order to be able to flick the ball to the lefty BH and controls him so he can move and use his FH more effective. Now he wins more than loses to this particular player. However, it is a different story if he plays a normal inverted (both sides) player with his SP on BH. The story tells us clearly that everyone's experience is quite unique. It is indeed stupid to force own experience on others and insists that own experience is superior to others.
True story. In my club there is a player who used to be a 2300 rating player in US. He had very good forehand and a decent good BH loop to set up for his strong FH. When he got older and slower in his 60's he got beaten badly with a younger left-handed folk who uses LP on BH and SH on FH. This is because he is too slow to move and use his FH when the LH pip player chopblocks his LP to his BH. It is difficult to do a decent BH loop with such heavy underspin chopblock so he must return the ball with a weak return then the lefty can kill the ball with a vicious FH. So, he now switches to short pips on his BH in order to be able to flick the ball to the lefty BH and controls him so he can move and use his FH more effective. Now he wins more than loses to this particular player. However, it is a different story if he plays a normal inverted (both sides) player with his SP on BH. The story tells us clearly that everyone's experience is quite unique. It is indeed stupid to force own experience on others and insists that own experience is superior to others.
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I’m not saying you’re “trolling aimlessly”. What I’m saying is that your spreadsheet and your argument isn’t really what you claim it to be. You present things as if they are objective facts that apply universally, but in reality everything you are presenting is your own subjective opinion based purely on your own personal experiences. That doesn’t invalidate your own experiences, of course, but it’s wrong to try and pass off those subjective opinions and experiences as if they are universal facts that would apply equally to all players.
says
Spin and more spin.
says
Spin and more spin.
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SJan, you need to stick to one profile. If you come up with another, I will just make all of them disappear.
You also need to stop Hijacking threads where people are asking equipment questions and turning them into fiascos about your opinions.
Post all the information on what you think that you would like. But every thread started by someone asking honestly about equipment changes seems to get you derailing the thread and presenting your own agenda. Post your own agenda in the context of it being your own agenda. But not in threads like this where you have taken the subject matter so far from the OP's question that he is probably wondering why he bothered to post in the forum.
You also need to stop Hijacking threads where people are asking equipment questions and turning them into fiascos about your opinions.
Post all the information on what you think that you would like. But every thread started by someone asking honestly about equipment changes seems to get you derailing the thread and presenting your own agenda. Post your own agenda in the context of it being your own agenda. But not in threads like this where you have taken the subject matter so far from the OP's question that he is probably wondering why he bothered to post in the forum.
As fac as weakside short pips goes , chickens (short pips) can fly a little, doves (medium pips) can fly a little higher and bar-headed geese (LARC long pips) can fly much higher but Ruppell’s vulture (High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips) can soar the highest in terms of back spin, spin variations, dynamic range by itself or combined with spinny inverted on the other side of the racket & overall effectiveness
You can dispute this al you want & this is a universal objective fact that applies equally any player. This is an universal as spinny inverted being capable of generating the most spin on it s own. Only long pips provide spin amplification (I am not talking about spin removal or spin retention or spin reversal etc) . That is an objective universal fact
Long pips on the ITTF LARC are absolutely worthless in the 40+ plastic ball era. That is a universal fact.
Short pips do not have the spin variations or dynamic range of long pips in the hands of an amateur. That is a universal objective fact.
I admitted that there may be rare exceptions but you harassed me for first suggesting that it was 100% and then change it to 99%
Players play for different objectives. If you are just playing for fun & exercise or EJing it does not matter. Enjoy yourselves.
But don’t call yourselves a competitive player and use the playing for fun excuse whenever you lose that is a big problem
As far as I am concerned & as I stated on my long experience using short pips on weakside as a competitive player is an absolute waste of time for almost all amateur players or even most high level players.
And a short pips / spinny inverted combo racket is a complate joke compared to a long pips / spinny inverted combo racket in the hands of an amatuer in terms of overall effectiveness.
I am the first one to admit or suggsst that every single player is unique in tabletennis but a large number of players are wasting their life away listening to bad advice or falling for manufacturer's marketing gimmicks or pro player groupie worship. Players can still be very unique with the parameters I propose as the best & only overall solutions in terms of being the best competitive player you can be (not a fun / exercise player)
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You make a lot of assertions about things being universal facts, but facts don't become facts simply because someone claims they're a fact. You actually need to provide evidence to support the assertion!!!
Let's take just one of your assertions and see if you can provide any actual evidence to back it up. You claim that:"Long pips on the ITTF LARC are absolutely worthless in the 40+ plastic ball era. That is a universal fact".
OK, so what evidence do you have to support the assertion that Long pips on the ITTF LARC are "absolutely worthless" in the 40+ plastic ball era? This is a truly incredible claim to make, because you're not merely saying that the approved long pips are less effective in 40+ plastic ball era, you're actually saying they are absolutely worthless. To make such an incredible claim you must have some incredibly detailed and sophisticated evidence to provide in support of that claim. Over to you...
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Yes, it is. But insisting my experience is better than yours is defensively ignorant! Just share experience and let people decide to make life easier for us. This sentence is clearly NOT an experience, "Mima Ito herself is using the wrong rubber." It is a stupid statement!
Sorry I am not going in circles again & again.
I have explained 3 or 4 times why & I am not going to keep rehashing the same explanation again & again.
For those who do not understand , I cannot say much.
For those who understand but want to continue arguing for other reasons, I am not going to.
As I said before, YOU WIN I am wrong you looped me down. Everyone start using short pips on weakside or ITTF LARC long pips and it is not a waste of time.
Listen to ITTF & listen to Stuart . They know what is best for you.
Bye
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I agree . I was not very clear on this.
I see how it can be completely misinterpreted
I meant to say
Mima ito is using the wrong rubber
Hou Yingcchao is using the wrong rubber.
The GOAT of tabletennis Joo Sehyuk used many wrong rubbers
Koji Matsushita used the piece of crap Feint Long 2 & then now suggesting you use even bigger garbage Victas P1V etc
Matthew Syed was the only chopper to openly oppose the 1998 Durban Aspect Ratio massacre but continued to use piece of crap Fient Long 2
Kim Kyang Ah used many wrong rubbers
Park Mi Young used many wrong rubbers
Han Ying is using the wrong rubber
Chen Weixing used many wrong rubbers
Viktoria Pavlovich used many wrong rubbers
Linda Bergstrom is using the wrong rubber
Suh Hyowon is using the wrong rubber
Tetyana Bilenko is using the wrong rubber
Haruna Ojio is using the wrong rubber
Honoka Hashimoto is using the wrong rubber
Hitomi Sato is using the wrong rubber
Ruwen Filus is using the wrong rubber
Wang Yang is using the wrong rubber
Gionis Panagiotis is using the wrong rubber
Joanna Parker Drinkall is using the wrong rubber
Irene Ivancan is using the wrong rubber
Derek May is using the wrong rubber
Kewei Li is using the wrong rubber
Angela Guan is using the wrong rubber
Earl James Alto is using the wrong rubber
When she was on the USA team then, a frustrated Virginia Sung (USATT CEO now) used the wrong rubber for a while after losing to someone I know 2 straight at NTTC in Rockville,MD while using the right rubber
About 45 of the top 100 women on TTFI ranking list including Manika Batra & Sreeja Akula, Suthirtha Mukherjee Ayhika Mukherjee etc are using the wrong rubbers
Ding Song may not have used the wrong rubber
Norio Takashima may not have used the wrong rubber
Eberhard Scholer may not have used the wrong rubber
Zoltan Berczik Norio may not have used the wrong rubber
And a bunch of others I missed
And last but not the least...............drumroll please
Deng Yaping used the right rubbers
I apologize if I was not very clear.
My bad
Sorry about that
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Going in circles?!? You haven't even completed one full rotation in explaining yourself! At no point have I ever seen you provide any substance to your claim that "Long pips on the ITTF LARC are absolutely worthless in the 40+ plastic ball era. That is a universal fact", nor any of the other claims that you make. All we have been given are your assertions and your home-made spreadsheet to back up those assertions...a spreadsheet which we have subsequently discovered is nothing more than the recording of your personal experiences rather than any sort of objective study on the subject matter.
Once again, for the purposes of making this point I'm not necessarily saying you are wrong, I'm simply asking for some actual evidence to support the radical claims that you make. To say that something is "absolutely worthless" is an extreme statement; it literally means that the rubber(s) have no redeeming qualities or usefulness at all. None, nada, zero!!! Is it too much to ask that you actually back this up with some evidence that is proportionate to that claim?
If you wanted to rein in your claims and change your position to something like ""I have found that for me Long pips on the ITTF LARC are absolutely worthless in the 40+ plastic ball era", then fair enough; you wouldn't be over-stepping the mark with a statement like that because you are merely talking about your own personal experiences and preferences. Although, even then I would still be inclined to think that "absolutely worthless" was an exaggeration on your part...but I wouldn't really care about the exaggeration because you're not trying to pass off your personal experiences as universal facts that apply to everyone.
Just to be clear to everyone else following this thread. Please evaluate all arguments being made and make up your own mind. However, if you want to play table tennis at any sort of competitive level, please do only use authorised rubbers that appear on the ITTF LARC. Unless I've misunderstood, James Z seems to be suggesting that players should continue to use rubbers that are no longer authorised. If you are playing competitively and are using rubbers that are not authorised by ITTF, you will be running a risk of being caught and being unable to use the bat.
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So, what are the correct rubbers that all these players should be using??? Are you able to list all of these players names again in a new post, and besides each players' name write down which ITTF authorised rubber(s) they should have used or should be using? *
* Now I admit, I suspect I'm setting a bit of a trap for you here because I think that what you really want to say is that they should all be using rubbers that are no longer authorised by ITTF. But clearly if the crux of your argument is that the "right rubbers" are the illegal ones, then obviously following your advice on what rubbers to use would be a very silly thing to do for anyone that plays table tennis competitively and its potentially subject to bat inspections etc.
Stuart,
You are truly amazing.
You busted me yet again.
Yes I am totally off base & totally out of line.
Yes you are correct. I agree with you 200%
ITTF knows what is good for the sport
ITTF knows what is in the best interests of the pips players.
ITTF loves diversity in sport & that is the ONLY reason why they have not banned pips
ITTF loves choppers and long rallies to promote spectator interests & eliminate all 3rd ball attacks
ITTF has always passed rules & regulations since 1983 strcitly based on technical merits in the best interests of the sport and not two winged loopers. Absolutely no politics involved .
ITTF has always maintained a level & fair playing field ONLY in the interests of long rallies & promoting the sport & NOT for two winged loopers.
ITTF strictly enforces zero toerance for boosters & speed-glues in the best iinterests of health of players & seconfhand effects on spectators. And you really want to get into chemical inspection vs visual inspection of rackets ? REALLY ?
So yes please everyone, listen to Stuart & listen to ITTF . They know what is best for you.
They care about your health. .
Use only long pips on ITTF LARC. They are the best for you in the 40+ plastic ball era
Or even better, use ONLY short pips on your weakside (backhand)
Yes Stuart. you win again. You looped me down.
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