Looping - counter looping and underspin looping for beginners

[zaza.sea]

I've been playing table tennis for 6 months now and I really like the way the Chinese players loop. For now, I'm just using a hand-me-down racket from a friend at the university club, but the rubbers on both side have no grip or tackiness left. However, I have developed a decent motion and I am able to engage body mechanics to deliver decent loops.

Now, I want to build my own customized setup, coming from other sports, I know I want my overall setup to be heavy.
After doing some research on the Chinese players, most of them use boosted DHS rubbers, which I think is a little too advanced for me.

So, what would you recommend, for someone in the US? What blade and rubbers should I get if I want to improve my counter looping and underspin looping?
My total budget is $150.

Regards

 

[Lula]

Really as long as the grip is good then it will work. Now with little grip you can not create correct motion, so correct thinking to change.
Do you know what kind of racket you are using now?

 

[Archosaurus]

Stick with 5 ply allwood, it won't really matter which one, just get something you can afford and that you think you will like the handle shape of.

I started with Stiga Allround Evolution and I enjoyed it, but you can probably get something similar for less. If you're going to use slow rubbers, you can even get a bit thicker, bit faster 5 ply allwood. Avoid composite blades or 7 ply IMO because you want to feel the lowest vibrations and highest flex first.

Rubber wise, I played with 729 Super FX on both sides and did not find there is any kind of adjustment period to other Chinese rubber. They're very cheap. If you're on a huge budget, those should be okay to just hit around with. They have enough grip to loop and serve with, and mine were durable. Moderately hard so you won't be able to fully utilize them so there's some room to develop strong shots.

Ideally you'd probably go for a minimum hardness Chinese rubber on the forehand, something like Hurricane 3 Neo 37deg or Sanwei Target Soft 37deg. The reason is just feel, you want to feel the ball sink into the rubber more, and it will probably perform better for you as you're likely not able to fully utilize a harder sponge.

Ideally for the backhand I'd suggest a soft European tensor, something 42.5deg or less on the ESN scale. Europe DF is on the far end of the easy to play side but still has very high topsheet grip, so I got one personally to help getting back into the sport.

The advice may be different if you were being coached constantly, but I think starting on the more obvious end for feel is a good idea as an uncoached beginner. I suffered a little bit because of the too high sponge hardness on 729 Super FX for a beginner. It took a good while to learn how to actually contact the ball. This period may be shorter with more obvious rubbers. And if you think you're not a beginner and have pretty good feel, you might think again; just make it easier on yourself.

 

[Tyce]

If what you play now is correct in your profile, my first advice is to get fresh sheets of the same rubber.
Here's why:
One, you're used to the general feeling of these rubbers. They're great rubbers
Two, you will learn how a fresh rubber feels vs a dead old one.
Three, the blade is perfectly suitable.

A second, slightly safer option would be to get slightly easier versions of the same rubber, I think mx-d (but correct me if I'm wrong here) and Vega Europe. Don't worry about outgrowing them, by the time you master those it will be time for new rubber anyway.

 

[BackhandSteve]

Yes like the others have said. A all wood blade is good. Five plies of wood makes it balanced and not too fast in the beginning. Having a blade too fast is limiting in matches. I think a normal Tensor rubber is good because it is not as Sticky as hybrid rubbers. Hybrid rubbers are more sensitive to spin in that sense. Spin is a big part of the game and takes time mastering. I use tensor rubbers myself. Rakza has good rubbers and blades I have used myself before reaching the intermediate level is
Petr Korbel: I really like this blade. Gionis Panagiotis uses this and is a good player. The handle is a bit smaller which can be good. However nowadays i like thick handles. Remember you also need to decide the shape of the handle. I use Straight myself. But you probably have concave which is most common, so stick with that if you enjoy it.

 

[Archosaurus]

Yes like the others have said. A all wood blade is good. Five plies of wood makes it balanced and not too fast in the beginning. Having a blade too fast is limiting in matches. I think a normal Tensor rubber is good because it is not as Sticky as hybrid rubbers. Hybrid rubbers are more sensitive to spin in that sense. Spin is a big part of the game and takes time mastering. I use tensor rubbers myself. Rakza has good rubbers and blades I have used myself before reaching the intermediate level is
Petr Korbel: I really like this blade. Gionis Panagiotis uses this and is a good player. The handle is a bit smaller which can be good. However nowadays i like thick handles. Remember you also need to decide the shape of the handle. I use Straight myself. But you probably have concave which is most common, so stick with that if you enjoy it.

I'd +1 the idea to go to easier rubbers in the same line, but since he said he likes the Chinese style, I think it'd be fine to try a more forgiving version of a tacky Chinese forehand rubber too. It would save a bit of money too most of the time. Europe and Europe DF are generally cheaper than Pro as well.

If that gear in the profile is what he's using right now, then just stay with the blade, no need to buy anything.

 

[zaza.sea]

Really as long as the grip is good then it will work. Now with little grip you can not create correct motion, so correct thinking to change.
Do you know what kind of racket you are using now?

Oh I thought selecting my current use blade and rubber on the profile would be visible to all. Currently I am using Andro Inizo off (5 ply all wood), Tibhar Evo MXP red max for FH and Xiom Vega Pro black max for BH.

 

[zaza.sea]

Stick with 5 ply allwood, it won't really matter which one, just get something you can afford and that you think you will like the handle shape of.

I started with Stiga Allround Evolution and I enjoyed it, but you can probably get something similar for less. If you're going to use slow rubbers, you can even get a bit thicker, bit faster 5 ply allwood. Avoid composite blades or 7 ply IMO because you want to feel the lowest vibrations and highest flex first.

Rubber wise, I played with 729 Super FX on both sides and did not find there is any kind of adjustment period to other Chinese rubber. They're very cheap. If you're on a huge budget, those should be okay to just hit around with. They have enough grip to loop and serve with, and mine were durable. Moderately hard so you won't be able to fully utilize them so there's some room to develop strong shots.

Ideally you'd probably go for a minimum hardness Chinese rubber on the forehand, something like Hurricane 3 Neo 37deg or Sanwei Target Soft 37deg. The reason is just feel, you want to feel the ball sink into the rubber more, and it will probably perform better for you as you're likely not able to fully utilize a harder sponge.

Ideally for the backhand I'd suggest a soft European tensor, something 42.5deg or less on the ESN scale. Europe DF is on the far end of the easy to play side but still has very high topsheet grip, so I got one personally to help getting back into the sport.

The advice may be different if you were being coached constantly, but I think starting on the more obvious end for feel is a good idea as an uncoached beginner. I suffered a little bit because of the too high sponge hardness on 729 Super FX for a beginner. It took a good while to learn how to actually contact the ball. This period may be shorter with more obvious rubbers. And if you think you're not a beginner and have pretty good feel, you might think again; just make it easier on yourself.

The 729 super FX sounds like a good idea. I have developed enough technique in the last 4 months of playing 3 times a "week" with players ranked 1300-1900 USATT to understand what you mean by developing the feeling aspect within a FH loop as I've just noticed a huge difference overall. If I go with Stiga Allround and 729 superfx, what would you recommend for BH? I love flicks and can throw them fairly consistently and want to eventually develop a proper BH loop as well, so if there's something focused around that maybe.

 

[zaza.sea]

If what you play now is correct in your profile, my first advice is to get fresh sheets of the same rubber.
Here's why:
One, you're used to the general feeling of these rubbers. They're great rubbers
Two, you will learn how a fresh rubber feels vs a dead old one.
Three, the blade is perfectly suitable.

A second, slightly safer option would be to get slightly easier versions of the same rubber, I think mx-d (but correct me if I'm wrong here) and Vega Europe. Don't worry about outgrowing them, by the time you master those it will be time for new rubber anyway.

Oh wow, this is great advice. The only thing that concerns me is the flat throw angle of the Vega Pro, so I'll probably change that and get the MXD instead of MXP

 

[zaza.sea]

Yes like the others have said. A all wood blade is good. Five plies of wood makes it balanced and not too fast in the beginning. Having a blade too fast is limiting in matches. I think a normal Tensor rubber is good because it is not as Sticky as hybrid rubbers. Hybrid rubbers are more sensitive to spin in that sense. Spin is a big part of the game and takes time mastering. I use tensor rubbers myself. Rakza has good rubbers and blades I have used myself before reaching the intermediate level is
Petr Korbel: I really like this blade. Gionis Panagiotis uses this and is a good player. The handle is a bit smaller which can be good. However nowadays i like thick handles. Remember you also need to decide the shape of the handle. I use Straight myself. But you probably have concave which is most common, so stick with that if you enjoy it.

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into those aspects and stay away from something that is fast.

 

[zaza.sea]

I'd +1 the idea to go to easier rubbers in the same line, but since he said he likes the Chinese style, I think it'd be fine to try a more forgiving version of a tacky Chinese forehand rubber too. It would save a bit of money too most of the time. Europe and Europe DF are generally cheaper than Pro as well.

If that gear in the profile is what he's using right now, then just stay with the blade, no need to buy anything.

What I have on the profile is what I am using. There are 2 reasons why I wrote I prefer something like Chinese players: 1. I just love how they create those beautiful yet powerful arc shots; 2. I used a friend's Chinese rubber setup and that showed me how much of my technique is actually being masked by the catapult of MXP, I was able to deliver significantly more power and spin with my friend's setup with full confidence, whereas i have to hold back with the MXP to make sure the ball lands on the table. MXP feels way too flat, as in the throw angle is just not there for me.

 

[Archosaurus]

The 729 super FX sounds like a good idea. I have developed enough technique in the last 4 months of playing 3 times a day with players ranked 1300-1900 USATT to understand what you mean by developing the feeling aspect within a FH loop as I've just noticed a huge difference overall. If I go with Stiga Allround and 729 superfx, what would you recommend for BH? I love flicks and can throw them fairly consistently and want to eventually develop a proper BH loop as well, so if there's something focused around that maybe.

I'd keep the blade, it's fine. No reason to change for the first couple years IMO. You will find later what you feel is lacking about it. You said the MX-P goes out right now and you're holding back, so it may be wise to stay with what you have and "downgrade" the rubber, especially if you feel more confident with the more linear Chinese models.

Research into 729, Sanwei, DHS rubber product lines. Double Fish also makes rubbers but I have no knowledge of them. In all honesty you can probably pick any medium to hard sponge, non-tensioned, tacky or semi-tacky model and get a similar experience.

Pick one that is a good price for you and that you want to try, and probably it's a good idea to pick the softest sponge option. DHS is the most expensive out of those, so it's probably a good idea to start out with the cheaper brands like 729 or Sanwei so you can afford to try more of them and worry less about it.

I haven't tried all of these yet, but I'm sure any of these would satisfy you, so I'll list a few to help you with your research:
729 FX
729 Super FX
729 GeoSpin Tacky
729 RITC 2000
729 Battle II
729 Battle III
Sanwei Target 3 National
Sanwei Target 3 Pro
Sanwei Target Special Soft
DHS Hurricane 3 series, preferably NEO
DHS Hurricane 2 series, preferably NEO
DHS Skyline TG2 and 3 series, preferably NEO
DHS Skyline 8-80 (Supposedly the normal 8 model is quite bouncy, but it may be okay as well)

and many countless more that I know nothing about. Testing all of those would take years, so take your pick.

I'd avoid trying to specifically look for "Provincial" or "National" versions due to higher likelihood of fakes, but also because their benefit is primarily the stricter QC on the exact hardness of the sponge, something you are not terribly concerned with.

The Super FX was a "I have no money" situation, but with your 150 USD budget if you keep the blade you can easily afford my more recommended setup with money to spare. I would go for a softer rubber on the backhand, and it won't matter so much which one so it will depend on what prices are in your region. Try to find one without a lot of catapult and with a soft sponge.

 

[Ultravisitor]

Check this thread

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/best-chinese-sticky-rubbers-that-dont-need-boosting.38053/

Also FH Loki Arthur China pro and BH Yinhe Moon 12. That's a good start that doesn't require boosting

 

[andymagata]

You have played for six months and play three times a day? You love the way chinese players loop? All of this is great - just make sure you are not practicing a form that is incorrect! Just make sure you don’t overdo it and develop an injury! And don’t forget that the loops you see pro players do is realistically out of your reach! And don’t forget to develop a rock steady drive first! And don’t forget that footwork is more important than strokes! And don’t forget to do what you enjoy!

 

[Archosaurus]

You have played for six months and play three times a day? You love the way chinese players loop? All of this is great - just make sure you are not practicing a form that is incorrect! Just make sure you don’t overdo it and develop an injury! And don’t forget that the loops you see pro players do is realistically out of your reach! And don’t forget to develop a rock steady drive first! And don’t forget that footwork is more important than strokes! And don’t forget to do what you enjoy!

So what you're saying is that amateurs can't develop good swing mechanics for some reason, and that amateurs who play a limited amount of hours a week should focus on footwork even if it means their swing has low quality and doesn't connect reliably?

If I read that right, I can't agree. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like if you focus on things which win points, like a good serve and receive and reliable attack onto the response, you will be more successful than if you train footwork, on an hours and dollars spent basis for the typical player who plays about 10 hours a week.

 

[jonol]

Finding that you have to hold back with the MX-P is pretty normal - it's a very fast and bouncy rubber.

Swapping that for a less bouncy euro style rubber would be the safest change, but if you want to play with Chinese style rubbers then some of the suggestions made are all pretty reasonable. Using those on a 5ply blade is pretty much the other end of the extreme and you might find you need significant effort just to stay in rallies - but it sounds like you are comfortable making your own power on the forehand side.

I would stick to the Vega Pro on backhand if you already like it. Very high quality rubber, little reason to change it. If you do feel its a bit too stiff or hard to control on the backhand, some good options for softer and easier to use rubbers would be Vega Europe or Vega Korea.

 

[BackhandSteve]

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into those aspects and stay away from something that is fast.

Yes and remember that underspin loops is one of the more difficult skills to master. especially with backhand. And yes good blade and rubber will make it possible to do so, but you need the right technique😋

 

[zaza.sea]

You have played for six months and play three times a day? You love the way chinese players loop? All of this is great - just make sure you are not practicing a form that is incorrect! Just make sure you don’t overdo it and develop an injury! And don’t forget that the loops you see pro players do is realistically out of your reach! And don’t forget to develop a rock steady drive first! And don’t forget that footwork is more important than strokes! And don’t forget to do what you enjoy!

My bad on the typo, I play three times a week, not a day. I appreciate the comment about the foundational stuff. I tried looking myself, and maybe I'm not looking properly, but where can I find proper definition and examples of a "drive"?

 

[Takkyu_ga_suki]

I tried looking myself, and maybe I'm not looking properly, but where can I find proper definition and examples of a "drive"?

and

 

[BackhandSteve]

My bad on the typo, I play three times a week, not a day. I appreciate the comment about the foundational stuff. I tried looking myself, and maybe I'm not looking properly, but where can I find proper definition and examples of a "drive"?

You will figure it out dont worry 🙌
Takes time 😁