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「ESNという名を隠す必要はない。
世界最先端企業とのコラボなのだから」
https://victas.world-tt-s.com/news/page_731.html
We're collaborating with the world's most cutting-edge company."
March 11, 2025
"V>15 Sticky" also falls into that category of H-Touch.
Germany's ESN is the world's largest rubber supplier.
At the world event in August last year, 3 of the top 4 men's players used ESN rubber.
ESN Product Strategy Director Forkel had a talk with VICTAS President Matsushita Koji.
They talked about their passion for rubber.
◇◇◇
●- First, I'd like to ask about the development process of "V>15 Sticky."
Patrick Forkel (hereinafter PF)A few years ago, when I was talking with VICTAS about ideas and trends for new rubbers, we noticed that top players were already starting to use rubbers with sticky sheets, so we proposed to them, "Why don't we develop one together?" At that time, top Japanese players and Duda (Germany) were also interested.
While developing the V>15 Sticky, we felt that the categories of "C-Touch" (a feel similar to Chinese rubber) and "H-Touch" (a hybrid type, somewhere between Chinese rubber and tension) were still relatively new technologies at the time. As it was a field where they had not yet been established as commercially available products, we first discussed with the players that if players who had been using tension rubbers suddenly started using Chinese rubbers like Kyohyo [TL's note: Hurricane], the difference was too great and it took a long time for them to adapt, and they had a lot of trouble.
As ESN, we thought that if we could create a hybrid rubber that combined the best of both worlds for players, it would make the transition smoother and broaden the scope of play, so we proceeded with development. As a result, there are now many H-Touch rubbers, and the V>15 Sticky falls into that category.
The boundary between H-Touch and C-Touch is not always clear-cut, and the V>15 Sticky has a hardness of 52.5 degrees, which is on the hard side in terms of sponge hardness, but the feel of the ball when hit is soft.
●- C-Touch has a sponge hardness of, say, 55 degrees or more, and the top sheet has a slight adhesiveness?
PF The stronger the adhesiveness and the harder the hardness, the more it feels like a C-Touch.
●- It took quite a while to release it.
Matsushita Koji (hereinafter referred to as Matsushita) At first, the strategy was to prioritize "V>20" and "V>22", and then try to bring out "V>15 Sticky".
●- What did VICTAS want from ESN during the development stage?
Matsushita VICTAS often gets feedback from top players, so we compiled that feedback and asked ESN to make a rubber that top Japanese players and Duda can use. We released the V>15 Sticky with a harder sponge for top players, and then released a soft rubber for general users. The V>15 Sticky is a bit harder, so the V>15 Sticky Soft is easier for general users to use.
PF Looking back on the development process at that time, there are two things that made an impression on me. The first was the adhesiveness. Even though it was called "light adhesive," the adhesiveness was not something that could be quantified, so each user judged the strength of the adhesiveness based on their own sense. Ultimately, one of the major focuses was to ensure that the V>15 Sticky had an adhesiveness that would satisfy users.
Since we started developing rubbers for top players, rubbers with harder sponge hardness tended to be rather heavy. So, as we developed it with general users in mind, we spent the longest time discussing with VICTAS how important weight would be to users, and this is where we ended up releasing it on the market. Before deciding on the specifications for the commercial version of the V>15 Sticky, we had players try out various samples, and when Duda won second place at the European Championships, he was using the final rubber.
I want to advertise that I work with a good rubber factory like ESN. That will give me more credibility.
●- First of all, why did you choose to collaborate with ESN?
Matsushita I became president in 2010 and wanted to "beat Butterfly" and "become the number one table tennis manufacturer in Japan." After I became president, I went to a rubber factory in Japan to say hello and see the factory, and also visited ESN, saw the factory, and talked with Niklas (founder of ESN). ESN is large in scale, and they developed good rubber in a short period of time after starting the company. I felt Niklas' passion, and I thought "If I'm going to join forces, it has to be ESN."
●- Some people have the stereotype that "in the end, all German rubbers look the same."
Matsushita Although they are made in the same place, the recipes are completely different, and the concepts behind their development are also completely different. For example, even in the same restaurant, there are spicy and sweet versions of curry rice, which are completely different.
PF When developing rubber, various elements are important. The top sheet composition, sponge composition, grain shape of the sheet, and each category can be divided into various small elements, and the combinations are infinite. Even now, ESN is working on development every day to increase the variety of combinations.
When developing a rubber with a table tennis manufacturer, the passion and concept are all different, so even if they are made in the same place, the possibility of the rubber being the same is almost zero. Every manufacturer has completely different thoughts and wants to make things. Our motto is to "make a one-of-a-kind product" by firmly expressing the manufacturer's taste (characteristics).
●- Table tennis manufacturers try to hide the ESN name in their promotions. Why did VICTAS give their approval this time?
Matsushita On the contrary, I don't understand why they want to hide it. The company has to develop with its limited resources. Even if they have money, it is very difficult to develop and launch a table tennis rubber from scratch, and it costs a lot of research money.
In this day and age, the number of fabless companies (business models that do not have their own manufacturing facilities, but specialize in design and sales and outsource manufacturing) that do not have their own factories is increasing. In a sense, it takes less time and costs less to partner with a good company like ESN. In this day and age, there is no need to hide it. On the contrary, from my perspective, I would like to advertise that I am partnered with a good rubber factory. That will also gain more trust.
When I visited in 2010, I thought that "ESN rubber will dominate the world in 10 years." I felt that this company would be a supplier of rubber that the world's top players could use in 2020. This is because they have passion, and there are many people researching rubber, and developing and manufacturing rubber. <To be continued>
世界最先端企業とのコラボなのだから」
https://victas.world-tt-s.com/news/page_731.html
"There's no need to hide the name ESN.「ESNという名を隠す必要はない。
世界最先端企業とのコラボなのだから」
2025年03月11日
『V>15 スティッキー』もまさに
そのHタッチの部類に入ります
世界最大のラバーサプライヤー、ドイツのESN。
昨年8月の世界イベントでは男子ベスト4のうち、3人がESN製のラバーを使用していた。
ESN商品戦略部長のフォーケル氏がVICTAS松下浩二社長と対談。
ラバーに懸ける熱い想いを語り合った。
◇◇◇
●ーまずは『V>15 スティッキー』の開発経緯についてお伺いします。
パトリック・フォーケル(以下PF) 数年前、VICTASと今後の新しいラバーのアイデアやトレンドについて話をしていた時、すでにトップ選手の間でシートに粘着性があるラバーが多く使われ始めているという傾向が出てきていたので、「一緒に開発をしませんか」と提案しました。その当時、日本のトップ選手やデューダ選手(ドイツ)も興味を持っていました。
『V>15 スティッキー』を開発している中で感じていたことは、「Cタッチ」(中国ラバーに近い感触)と「Hタッチ」(中国的なラバーとテンションの中間、ハイブリッドタイプ)というカテゴリーは、当時まだ比較的新しい技術でした。特に市販品として確立されていないフィールドでもあったため、まずは選手と話を進める中で、今までテンションラバーを使っていた選手がいきなり『キョウヒョウ』のような中国系のラバーを使うと、差が大きすぎて順応するのに時間がかかり、苦労する面が多かった。
ESNとして、選手にとって両方の良いところを取ったようなハイブリッド系のラバーを作れれば、移行がスムーズにでき、新たにプレーの幅が広がると考え、開発を進めていきました。その結果、現在Hタッチの部類のラバーが充実してきて、『V>15 スティッキー』もまさにそのHタッチの部類に入ります。
HタッチとCタッチの境界線は必ずしも明確ではなく、『V>15 スティッキー』は硬度が52・5度で、スポンジ硬度では硬い部類になりますが、打球感は柔らかく感じます。
●ーCタッチは、スポンジ硬度、例えば55度以上で、トップシートは少し微粘着を持つという感じですか?
PF 粘着性が強くなればなるほど、硬度が硬くなればなるほど、よりCタッチのほうに寄っていく感じですね。
●ー発売までにかなり時間がかかりましたね。
松下浩二(以下松下) 最初は、優先順位が『V>20』や『V>22』で、その後に『V>15 スティッキー』を出そうという戦略でした。
●ー開発段階で、VICTASはESNにどのようなことを求めましたか?
松下 VICTASは、トップ選手からフィードバックを得るというパターンが多いので、その意見をまとめてESNに依頼し、日本のトップ選手やデューダ選手が使えるラバーを作ってほしいとお願いしました。『V>15 スティッキー』でスポンジが硬めのトップ志向のものを出し、その次に一般ユーザー向けのソフトを出しました。『V>15 スティッキー』は硬めなので、『V>15 スティッキー ソフト』のほうが一般の方は使いやすい。
PF 当時の開発の経緯を思い返すと、印象に残っている点が2つあります。ひとつは粘着性。微粘着と言っても、その粘着性は具体的に数値化できるものではないので、ユーザー一人ひとりの感覚で粘着性の強弱を判断します。最終的にユーザーに納得してもらえる粘着力が『V>15 スティッキー』に搭載されていることがひとつの大きな焦点でした。
トップ選手志向のラバーの開発からスタートしたこともあり、硬めのスポンジ硬度のラバーは、どちらかというと重くなる傾向がありました。それで、一般ユーザーに使ってもらうことを念頭に置いて開発する中で、重量がどれくらいユーザーにとって重要なポイントになるのか、最終的に市販化に至るまでVICTASと一番長い時間をかけて議論したところです。実際に『V>15 スティッキー』の市販品の仕様が決定するまで、選手にいろいろなサンプルを試してもらったが、実際にデューダ選手がヨーロッパ選手権で準優勝した時も、その最終的な仕様のラバーでした。
ESNのような良いラバー工場と組んでいることを
宣伝したい。そのほうが信用も得られます
●ーそもそも、なぜ松下さんはESNとの協業を選んだのでしょうか?
松下 2010年に社長になり、「バタフライに勝ちたい」「日本一の卓球メーカーになりたい」と思っていました。社長に就任してから、日本のラバー工場にあいさつに行き工場を見たり、ESNも訪問して工場を見てニクラス(ESN創業者)さんとも話をしました。ESNの規模は大きく、会社を立ち上げてから短い期間で良いラバーを開発していたし、ニクラスさんの情熱を感じ、「手を組むならESN」だと思いました。
●ー「結局、ドイツラバーはみんな似ているでしょ」と、固定観念を持っている人がいます。
松下 同じところで作っていますが、レシピは全く違うし、その開発のコンセプトも全く異なります。たとえば「カレーライス」も同じ店でも、辛いのもあれば、甘いのもあるし、全く違う。
PF ラバーを開発していく上で、やはりいろいろな要素が重要になってきます。トップシートの配合、スポンジの配合、シートの粒形状、それぞれのカテゴリーの中でもいろいろと小さい要素に枝分かれしていく中で、組み合わせは無限にできます。今もESNはその組み合わせのバリエーションを増やしていこうと、日々開発を進めています。
卓球メーカーとひとつのラバーの開発をしていく中で、パッションやコンセプトについてもそれこそ十人十色なので、いくら同じ場所で作っているからとはいえ、同じラバーになる可能性はほぼゼロに等しい。どのメーカーも、思っていることや作りたいものは全く違う。メーカーのテイスト(特長)をしっかりと出して、「唯一無二の商品を作る」ということをモットーにしています。
●ー卓球メーカーはプロモーションにおいてESNの名前を隠そうとします。今回なぜVICTASはOKしたのでしょうか?
松下 逆に、なぜ隠したがるのか理解できない。会社はその限られた資源の中で発展していかなければならない。お金があったとしても、卓球のラバーを1から開発、立ち上げるのはとても大変で研究費もかかります。
今の時代、自社工場を持たないファブレス(製造設備を持たずに設計や販売に特化し、製造を外部に委託するビジネスモデル)の企業が非常に増えている。ある意味、ESNのような良い会社と手を組むほうが時間も短縮できて、費用もかからない。そういう時代だから、隠す必要はない。逆にぼくからしてみれば、良いラバー工場と組んでいることを宣伝したい。そのほうが信用も得られます。
2010年に訪問した時、「ESNのラバーは10年で世界に君臨する」と思っていた。この会社は2020年には世界のトップ選手が使えるようなラバーを供給する会社になると感じた。なぜなら、パッションがあり、ラバーを研究する人、開発と製造の人数が多いからです。 <続く>
We're collaborating with the world's most cutting-edge company."
March 11, 2025
"V>15 Sticky" also falls into that category of H-Touch.
Germany's ESN is the world's largest rubber supplier.
At the world event in August last year, 3 of the top 4 men's players used ESN rubber.
ESN Product Strategy Director Forkel had a talk with VICTAS President Matsushita Koji.
They talked about their passion for rubber.
◇◇◇
●- First, I'd like to ask about the development process of "V>15 Sticky."
Patrick Forkel (hereinafter PF)A few years ago, when I was talking with VICTAS about ideas and trends for new rubbers, we noticed that top players were already starting to use rubbers with sticky sheets, so we proposed to them, "Why don't we develop one together?" At that time, top Japanese players and Duda (Germany) were also interested.
While developing the V>15 Sticky, we felt that the categories of "C-Touch" (a feel similar to Chinese rubber) and "H-Touch" (a hybrid type, somewhere between Chinese rubber and tension) were still relatively new technologies at the time. As it was a field where they had not yet been established as commercially available products, we first discussed with the players that if players who had been using tension rubbers suddenly started using Chinese rubbers like Kyohyo [TL's note: Hurricane], the difference was too great and it took a long time for them to adapt, and they had a lot of trouble.
As ESN, we thought that if we could create a hybrid rubber that combined the best of both worlds for players, it would make the transition smoother and broaden the scope of play, so we proceeded with development. As a result, there are now many H-Touch rubbers, and the V>15 Sticky falls into that category.
The boundary between H-Touch and C-Touch is not always clear-cut, and the V>15 Sticky has a hardness of 52.5 degrees, which is on the hard side in terms of sponge hardness, but the feel of the ball when hit is soft.
●- C-Touch has a sponge hardness of, say, 55 degrees or more, and the top sheet has a slight adhesiveness?
PF The stronger the adhesiveness and the harder the hardness, the more it feels like a C-Touch.
●- It took quite a while to release it.
Matsushita Koji (hereinafter referred to as Matsushita) At first, the strategy was to prioritize "V>20" and "V>22", and then try to bring out "V>15 Sticky".
●- What did VICTAS want from ESN during the development stage?
Matsushita VICTAS often gets feedback from top players, so we compiled that feedback and asked ESN to make a rubber that top Japanese players and Duda can use. We released the V>15 Sticky with a harder sponge for top players, and then released a soft rubber for general users. The V>15 Sticky is a bit harder, so the V>15 Sticky Soft is easier for general users to use.
PF Looking back on the development process at that time, there are two things that made an impression on me. The first was the adhesiveness. Even though it was called "light adhesive," the adhesiveness was not something that could be quantified, so each user judged the strength of the adhesiveness based on their own sense. Ultimately, one of the major focuses was to ensure that the V>15 Sticky had an adhesiveness that would satisfy users.
Since we started developing rubbers for top players, rubbers with harder sponge hardness tended to be rather heavy. So, as we developed it with general users in mind, we spent the longest time discussing with VICTAS how important weight would be to users, and this is where we ended up releasing it on the market. Before deciding on the specifications for the commercial version of the V>15 Sticky, we had players try out various samples, and when Duda won second place at the European Championships, he was using the final rubber.
I want to advertise that I work with a good rubber factory like ESN. That will give me more credibility.
●- First of all, why did you choose to collaborate with ESN?
Matsushita I became president in 2010 and wanted to "beat Butterfly" and "become the number one table tennis manufacturer in Japan." After I became president, I went to a rubber factory in Japan to say hello and see the factory, and also visited ESN, saw the factory, and talked with Niklas (founder of ESN). ESN is large in scale, and they developed good rubber in a short period of time after starting the company. I felt Niklas' passion, and I thought "If I'm going to join forces, it has to be ESN."
●- Some people have the stereotype that "in the end, all German rubbers look the same."
Matsushita Although they are made in the same place, the recipes are completely different, and the concepts behind their development are also completely different. For example, even in the same restaurant, there are spicy and sweet versions of curry rice, which are completely different.
PF When developing rubber, various elements are important. The top sheet composition, sponge composition, grain shape of the sheet, and each category can be divided into various small elements, and the combinations are infinite. Even now, ESN is working on development every day to increase the variety of combinations.
When developing a rubber with a table tennis manufacturer, the passion and concept are all different, so even if they are made in the same place, the possibility of the rubber being the same is almost zero. Every manufacturer has completely different thoughts and wants to make things. Our motto is to "make a one-of-a-kind product" by firmly expressing the manufacturer's taste (characteristics).
●- Table tennis manufacturers try to hide the ESN name in their promotions. Why did VICTAS give their approval this time?
Matsushita On the contrary, I don't understand why they want to hide it. The company has to develop with its limited resources. Even if they have money, it is very difficult to develop and launch a table tennis rubber from scratch, and it costs a lot of research money.
In this day and age, the number of fabless companies (business models that do not have their own manufacturing facilities, but specialize in design and sales and outsource manufacturing) that do not have their own factories is increasing. In a sense, it takes less time and costs less to partner with a good company like ESN. In this day and age, there is no need to hide it. On the contrary, from my perspective, I would like to advertise that I am partnered with a good rubber factory. That will also gain more trust.
When I visited in 2010, I thought that "ESN rubber will dominate the world in 10 years." I felt that this company would be a supplier of rubber that the world's top players could use in 2020. This is because they have passion, and there are many people researching rubber, and developing and manufacturing rubber. <To be continued>
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