What happened to Darker?

[IB66]

Don't give them ideas 😬

Nah, plastic blades all the way!! Biodegradable of course, 10 weeks after glueing your rubbers the blade will have reduced itself to nothing, you’ll open your bat case only to find 2 sheets of rubbers fused to each other!!

 

[S-Pin]

Those properties are hardly noticeable on a multilayer blade actually depends on other layers. My soulspin blade with spruce is actually more “Hinoki” like than my SDC which has a Hinoki top layer, not Kiso though.

I bought it on a weekly sale maybe a month ago.

Cheers
L-zr

It might indeed be hardly noticeable if you don't compare it directly, but once you do and notice the difference, you can not unnotice it
I have 4 hinoki/carbon multilayer blades and one Soulspin spruce/carbon blade - all with the same rubber. I tried two more spruce/carbon blades from Soulspin. All my hinoki blades, even if they feel very different, have something in common: various degree of elasticity. Spruce is different, it feels soft but kind of blunt. Spruce doesn't have this unique hinoki catapult and gears.
I'm just trying to put into words my subtle impressions that are hard to define, so forgive me if it's a bit vague/oxymoronish.
Anyway, to me spruce is not a substitute for hinoki. It has similar dwell but different bounce/spin properties. If hinoki is clearly a spinning wood, spruce is more of a driving one.
It's all personal, so your mileage may vary.

 

[kase]

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If you want an alternative, you can try taiwan yellow hinoki or american hinoki from this shop. They usually have plenty of 1 plies, multi plies, jpen, cpen, taiwan hybrid handles (thin and thick) and crazy octagonal blades.

I have a 1 ply shakehand Tigress and it is excellent. You place the order on that website and they will email you with a paypal link.

It was initially confusing because of the URL (and lack of https) and the fact that they have another non-english site that may accept online payments. However after researching them on various forums I found they were indeed legit. Shipping did take a while though.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

On a serious note, what would happen to us 1-Ply'philes, when kiso is no longer a usable raw-mat?
What should we be looking at next?
I seriously don't want to go play Paddle-ball.

 

[Lazer]

It might indeed be hardly noticeable if you don't compare it directly, but once you do and notice the difference, you can not unnotice it
I have 4 hinoki/carbon multilayer blades and one Soulspin spruce/carbon blade - all with the same rubber. I tried two more spruce/carbon blades from Soulspin. All my hinoki blades, even if they feel very different, have something in common: various degree of elasticity. Spruce is different, it feels soft but kind of blunt. Spruce doesn't have this unique hinoki catapult and gears.
I'm just trying to put into words my subtle impressions that are hard to define, so forgive me if it's a bit vague/oxymoronish.
Anyway, to me spruce is not a substitute for hinoki. It has similar dwell but different bounce/spin properties. If hinoki is clearly a spinning wood, spruce is more of a driving one.
It's all personal, so your mileage may vary.

I did a direct comparison Sunday.
- Darker 7P-2A
- My current favorite Soulspin Basaltec inner.
- Nittaku excellent J-pen 1ply

The only one that felt really special was the Nittaku. The Soulspin actually felt more lively than the Darker. They all had different rubbers so of course this comparison is inconclusive.

And the Nittaku felt less special than what I expected.

I have 7 blades with Hinoki outer layers from which 2 are 1 ply, 2 all Hinoki and 4 (I think) blades with spruce outer layers. What I find is that all has a soft feel but there are other factors in play when comes to elasticity as well.

What I like the best is a soft top layer and something hard next to it.

Cheers
L-zr

 

[henry lam]

Highly recommend Taiwan cypress its feels like a carbon-ise 1ply Kiso Hinoki and it also smells amazing too.

 

[Caracas]

Don't worry we have an outstanding. X VT 800 1 Ply
Xvt hi okey 1 ply 8mm

 

[andzejgolot]

They made darker avantir and this is opus magnum, it is like heaven on earth and this is opinion from 5 different sources

 

[Wakkibatty]

If there's anyone out there in Europe, who's seriously currently looking for a replacement for their Shakehand Hinoki one ply blade, then send me a PM, as I may be able to help.

Just last week I send a shipment of Sköllas (a Shakehand one-ply blade of my own design and development) off to my European stockist. (His name's Peter Aird, he's a good mate of mine.)

Peter's a fellow hinoki one-ply fanatic much like the rest of us, but he stopped using them years back because he grew sick of them snapping in half on him.

On trying out one of my one Skölla one plys late last year however, not only did he then immediately buy three of them on the spot purely for his own use, but he also asked if I would allow him to purchase them from me directly in bulk on an ongoing basis, all so he could sell them for a bit of beer money, while he's travelling across Europe from one tournament to another.

I told him sure, no problem... And that's basically what he's been doing ever since.

He's currently in Rome playing at the Word Masters Championships. As far as I know, he had the latest shipment of Skölla's there with him. They're all fantastic blades, but one of them is honestly probably the fastest, spinniest one-ply of any wood type I have ever seen anywhere.... The piece of wood it's made from is just that good.

I'm not trying to boast or turn this thread into a sales pitch for my product.... truly I'm not.

I'm just trying to point out the future of one ply blades is anything but dark right now, if you're willing to divorce yourself from the notion they **must** be made of Hinoki or cypress, if they're going to be any good.

Because that whole idea is complete poppycock sorry. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm also merely trying here - quite sincerely - to point out you don't need to take my word on this claim either. If you're currently playing in Rome, you can experience one of the potential Hinoki alternatives for yourself, and make up your own mind.

Right now there's a one-ply loving Scotsman, playing TT in Rome, who has six concrete examples in his possession, of blades that demonstrate many of the potential concerns expressed in this thread, about the future of one ply blades in general, are all quite delightfully and deliciously moot.

Send me a pm and I'll give you his contact details.

 

[hinokihigh]

If there's anyone out there in Europe, who's seriously currently looking for a replacement for their Shakehand Hinoki one ply blade, then send me a PM, as I may be able to help.

Just last week I send a shipment of Sköllas (a Shakehand one-ply blade of my own design and development) off to my European stockist. (His name's Peter Aird, he's a good mate of mine.)

Peter's a fellow hinoki one-ply fanatic much like the rest of us, but he stopped using them years back because he grew sick of them snapping in half on him.

On trying out one of my one Skölla one plys late last year however, not only did he then immediately buy three of them on the spot purely for his own use, but he also asked if I would allow him to purchase them from me directly in bulk on an ongoing basis, all so he could sell them for a bit of beer money, while he's travelling across Europe from one tournament to another.

I told him sure, no problem... And that's basically what he's been doing ever since.

He's currently in Rome playing at the Word Masters Championships. As far as I know, he had the latest shipment of Skölla's there with him. They're all fantastic blades, but one of them is honestly probably the fastest, spinniest one-ply of any wood type I have ever seen anywhere.... The piece of wood it's made from is just that good.

I'm not trying to boast or turn this thread into a sales pitch for my product.... truly I'm not.

I'm just trying to point out the future of one ply blades is anything but dark right now, if you're willing to divorce yourself from the notion they **must** be made of Hinoki or cypress, if they're going to be any good.

Because that whole idea is complete poppycock sorry. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm also merely trying here - quite sincerely - to point out you don't need to take my word on this claim either. If you're currently playing in Rome, you can experience one of the potential Hinoki alternatives for yourself, and make up your own mind.

Right now there's a one-ply loving Scotsman, playing TT in Rome, who has six concrete examples in his possession, of blades that demonstrate many of the potential concerns expressed in this thread, about the future of one ply blades in general, are all quite delightfully and deliciously moot.

Send me a pm and I'll give you his contact details.

Hi, where can i see your products?

 

[Wakkibatty]

Hi, where can i see your products?

Just sent you a PM 🙂🙂

 

[jbvttcc]

No Kiso Hinoki; no more our beloved DS90 / Imperial anymore.

Gozo, not sure if you’re penholder or shakehand as Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki 2020 were made in both styles even though they’re more associated with penholder and especially Jpen.

Darker’s Jpen Speed series has been reduced to two models (Speed 90 and Speed 15) in the 2024 catalog from nine models in 2023 making the Hinoki shortage very apparent.
The Imperial Hinoki 2020 was never listed in their Japanese catalog. Tabletennis11 had, I think, four Imperial Hinoki 2020 Jpens available in June and I bought one of them.

Considering the Hinoki shortage and Darker being so closely associated with Jpen, they have come out with a new Jpen blade named Tris Calmati. They market it as their research and development finding a three ply combination of two outer hinoki layers and a European wood center that most closely replicates single ply hinoki feel. It’s Jpen only.
Although I play with Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki, I’m not a Jpen master nor, though I love their feel, a hinoki connoisseur.
I can say that I’ve recently started using a Tris Calmati and in my experience, it has a similar feel and sound to one ply Hinoki and although it may just be my level, I can easily switch between blades without adaptation.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Gozo, not sure if you’re penholder or shakehand as Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki 2020 were made in both styles even though they’re more associated with penholder and especially Jpen.

Darker’s Jpen Speed series has been reduced to two models (Speed 90 and Speed 15) in the 2024 catalog from nine models in 2023 making the Hinoki shortage very apparent.
The Imperial Hinoki 2020 was never listed in their Japanese catalog. Tabletennis11 had, I think, four Imperial Hinoki 2020 Jpens available in June and I bought one of them.

Considering the Hinoki shortage and Darker being so closely associated with Jpen, they have come out with a new Jpen blade named Tris Calmati. They market it as their research and development finding a three ply combination of two outer hinoki layers and a European wood center that most closely replicates single ply hinoki feel. It’s Jpen only.
Although I play with Speed 90 and Imperial Hinoki, I’m not a Jpen master nor, though I love their feel, a hinoki connoisseur.
I can say that I’ve recently started using a Tris Calmati and in my experience, it has a similar feel and sound to one ply Hinoki and although it may just be my level, I can easily switch between blades without adaptation.

I play shakehand.

I used to play DS90 and it is now in my collector drawer. After playing with a 10.5mm monster which is bespoke, I find DS90 too, boring and tame, like dating the girl next door.

BTW, DS90 has never done this before, whereas the Monster 10.5mm has, on many occassion.

 

[jbvttcc]

Update: Found the full 2024 catalogue: http://www.darker.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/webyoudata.pdf

Looks like they retain 7P-2A.7t and 7P-2A.Carbon (they raised the price though).

But many blades are missing, such as Darker Esteem or Aqua Selas ( and vendors confirmed they were not expecting it)

No 1-ply blades either.

Here the full list of 2024 products and, the last table, discontinued blades:

http://www.darker.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/DARKER2024%E5%B9%B4%E5%BA%A6%E6%96%B0%E8%A3%BD%E5%93%81%E3%80%81%E4%BE%A1%E6%A0%BC%E6%94%B9%E5%AE%9A%E5%93%81%E3%80%81%E5%BB%83%E7%95%AA%E5%93%81%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88.pdf

The discontinued list includes 5P-2A, 7P-2A, J-Speed 90 etc.

S-pin,
1 ply Speed 90 and Speed 15 are still listed in the 2024 catalog though I don’t think anyone has had them in stock for over a year

 

[jbvttcc]

I play shakehand.

I used to play DS90 and it is now in my collector drawer. After playing with a 10.5mm monster which is bespoke, I find DS90 too, boring and tame, like dating the girl next door.

BTW, DS90 has never done this before, whereas the Monster 10.5mm has, on many occassion.

View attachment 31122

What brand and model is your Monster 10.5mm?
With two rubbers on a 10.5mm, do you bring your racket to the table with a hand truck? 😉
Your playing arm must be massive!🙂

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

What brand and model is your Monster 10.5mm?
With two rubbers on a 10.5mm, do you bring your racket to the table with a hand truck? 😉
Your playing arm must be massive!🙂

Ariex from Taiwan. But not just any Ariex, Ariex bespoke.

As for rubber, it has always been max both side.

Popeye arm me has. Blush!

 

[jbvttcc]

Ariex from Taiwan. But not just any Ariex, Ariex bespoke.

As for rubber, it has always been max both side.

Popeye arm me has. Blush!

Just found you mentioning Ariex in the Darker Party thread.

Sorry…, It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ariex approaches Darker quality.
But it’s cool you’re happy with it 👏👍

“Popeye arm me has. Blush!” 💪!!

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Just found you mentioning Ariex in the Darker Party thread.

Sorry…, It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ariex approaches Darker quality.
But it’s cool you’re happy with it 👏👍

“Popeye arm me has. Blush!” 💪!!

I have been playing with Ariex 2.5 years already in lieu of DS90. I manage to successfully convinced myself.

 

[hinokihigh]

Just found you mentioning Ariex in the Darker Party thread.

Sorry…, It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that Ariex approaches Darker quality.
But it’s cool you’re happy with it 👏👍

“Popeye arm me has. Blush!” 💪!!

Try one Ariex. Thats the only way to know. Get the Royal Classic one.

 

[East Side Rob]

What happened to Darker?

It appears that they have entirely redesigned/reduced their product line and are going through a major transition. Their marketing (who would have thought that Darker had any marketing) is full of transitional messages like "leap forward" and "aggressive orthodox evolution" and even "Carry on our wayword!" (Hope they don't mean the Aberdeen WayWORD Festival ).

The new 7p-2A series blades (now 7P-2A.Ri) have an outer ply made of "European wood" that "is more supple than Japanese cypress" and has "more speed and power". I have no idea what 'European wood" they use, it looks like spruce to me and if that's the case that's a leap backward in my humble opinion, having played with both hinoki and spruce blades. Or maybe it's just some European cypress. I'm not an expert, so I may be mistaken.

There's also a new S&W 5-ply wood line made of willow and, again, some unnamed "European wood".

Most popular kiso hinoki blades, including 1-ply, have vanished from their 2024 catalogue.

The 2024 internet catalogue is currently somewhat brief. It's worth noting the odd (or should I say even, as there are only even numbers) pagination, which makes it appear as though half of the catalogue is missing (I know they also have a new 5P-2A.Ri blade that is absent). So there's still hope that they will keep some of their old hinoki blades.

Nevertheless, it appears that Darker are running out of their premium kiso hinoki wood, I'm afraid, as most Darker blades are currently out of stock for months in online retailers and some vendors informed me that they do not anticipate seeing specific kiso hinoki Darker blades any time soon.

I do hope it's a false alarm, so if you have any info, please share it with us here.

http://www.darker.co.jp/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/webyoudata.pdf

View attachment 30279

I also noticed the disappearance of all-hinoki blades from Darker's lastest catalog, which is sort of sad. I've played with all-hinoki blades for many decades (yes, I'm an older player) and my current blade, the Darker 7P-2A, is undoubtedly the best blade I've ever played with.

Darker is now seemingly pushing their Chinese-made composite blades, which, from a marketing perspective, is a hard market for a boutique brand to compete in given Butterfly and DHS's dominance in that niche. The big selling point for Darker was the performance and cachet of their handmade all-hinoki blades. Sorry to see them forego those.

I can't help but think that there are too many SKUs (products) out there in the table tennis market, similar to what the bicycle industry is now grappling with post-pandemic. There are at least 10 major TT brands out there, each with too many products, including legacy products, such as Sriver, Coppa and Mark V, all great products in their day, that just aren't really relevant in 2024. It just doesn't seem financially sustainable and I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't some consolidation among the manufacturers and a reduction in products in the near future.