World Teams: Team Sticky Inner Limba vs Team ESN Outer Koto

[ZFT]

To go along with my post on the emerging counter loop era I also noticed for male double inverted attackers there’s a clear divergence of equipment usage into 2 distinctive lines of thinking:

There’s the ESN Jap type + crisp outer koto facing setup - think Hugo, Truls, LJY (even though he was MIA) and WCT/QD or,

Inner composite high dwell bigger head shape limba facing: Japan NT, Korea NT, ML, WCQ, Pitchford, Lebrun bros?

FZD, LJK and Ng Pak Nam (HKG) can be considered the third more minor group using H3 blue sponge FH + outer koto. I have a feeling Ng Pak Nam might be better served experimenting with H3 + inner limba as his lack of physicality was clear to see when he lost convincingly to JWJ.

 

[SFF_lib]

Excellent analysis. This debate between the Vis and 968 camps has been going in China for a while. With more CNT switching away from Vis (LJK and WCQ), the sale of W968 has been going up in China. WCQ's switch to W968 probably had the biggest impact as he is considered the only hope after FZD.

In general W968 favours FH dominated style. The iconic example is ML, and also WCQ. It's an old style in the 40mm ball era. Without W968 it could've died down in the poly ball era.

Vis + ESN rubber setup favours BH dominated style. This style suits the new poly ball much better than the FH style. BH dominated style has many advantages - faster recovery, less movement, conserves energy and faster pace.

 

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interesting

 

[Zwill]

I guess the issue is that W968 didn't particularly help WCQ nor LJK. I don't even get why they switched to it, especially LJK who is more of a BH dominant player.
But there is this trend in the CNT now to step back to more "safe" gear and I don't see why they are doing it.
FZD doesn't need D09c on his backhand, I don't think it's doing him much of a service. Tho for Lin Gaoyuan it works super well, but he's a lefty and a faster player in general.

Pitchford's blade is an outer limba, no?

 

[Aizen]

Increase in popularity of 968 could be related about sponsorship, as I know there is no well known outer carbon from DHS (301 is inner carbon - koto outer, rare combination)
Chinese players might be get granted by dhs, in case of retirement of ma long. Since butterfly has many ambassador in different countries like Timo, FZD, Harimoto, Dima, Franziska, Hugo etc. However DHS has only two ma long and fang bo who has already retired. If I would be DHS marketing manager, definitely try to recruit a couple top chinese players.

but still I agree, back then poly ball era, except ma long almost all players were using outer-koto. Probably spin decrease of poly ball might be leading to use more dwelly blades(inner carbons)


I think there is 4 group of combination (outer/inner, Chinese/ESN -> basically DHS vs BTY)

1- outer carbon - ESN -> almost all non-Chinese players
2- inner carbon - ESN -> Harimoto, Dima, Patrick etc
3- outer carbon - Chinese -> FZD, rest of the team
4- inner carbon - Chinese -> ML, LGY

PS: I didn’t to consider 05 and 09c as separate cuz 09c is the new 05 in poly era, 05 is the new 64 (kinda)

And also I don’t believe top pro’s have concern about gears. Their interviews about blades could be related about Marketing.
Basically outer gives more speed, inner gives more spin, they should be choosing accordingly. And Speed is more distinct in Backhand, spin is more in Forehand. Hence I agree with @SFF_lib.

 

[SFF_lib]

I guess the issue is that W968 didn't particularly help WCQ nor LJK. I don't even get why they switched to it, especially LJK who is more of a BH dominant player.
But there is this trend in the CNT now to step back to more "safe" gear and I don't see why they are doing it.
FZD doesn't need D09c on his backhand, I don't think it's doing him much of a service. Tho for Lin Gaoyuan it works super well, but he's a lefty and a faster player in general.

Pitchford's blade is an outer limba, no?

WCQ, despite his age, plays a more traditional FH style. Thus switching to W968 makes sense.

LJK on the other hand, I agree with you, the switching makes no sense.

Having said that, I know distributors in China say DHS is fine tuning W968 each year. The newer W968 has more crisp feel (without compromising spin potential). Therefore the newer ones are good for BH

 

[SFF_lib]

Increase in popularity of 968 could be related about sponsorship, as I know there is no well known outer carbon from DHS (301 is inner carbon - koto outer, rare combination)
Chinese players might be get granted by dhs, in case of retirement of ma long. Since butterfly has many ambassador in different countries like Timo, FZD, Harimoto, Dima, Franziska, Hugo etc. However DHS has only two ma long and fang bo who has already retired. If I would be DHS marketing manager, definitely try to recruit a couple top chinese players.

but still I agree, back then poly ball era, except ma long almost all players were using outer-koto. Probably spin decrease of poly ball might be leading to use more dwelly blades(inner carbons)


I think there is 4 group of combination (outer/inner, Chinese/ESN -> basically DHS vs BTY)

1- outer carbon - ESN -> almost all non-Chinese players
2- inner carbon - ESN -> Harimoto, Dima, Patrick etc
3- outer carbon - Chinese -> FZD, rest of the team
4- inner carbon - Chinese -> ML, LGY

PS: I didn’t to consider 05 and 09c as separate cuz 09c is the new 05 in poly era, 05 is the new 64 (kinda)

And also I don’t believe top pro’s have concern about gears. Their interviews about blades could be related about Marketing.
Basically outer gives more speed, inner gives more spin, they should be choosing accordingly. And Speed is more distinct in Backhand, spin is more in Forehand. Hence I agree with @SFF_lib.

Butterfly has overwhelming ambassadors compared to the all other brands for sure. It makes sense that DHS will start in their own soil, the CNT. So sponsoring CNT with W968 is a natural business move.

Talking about speed and spin, CNT are using the new slightly tacky H3 on FH. This new faster H3 compensate for the lack of speed in W968. When hitting hard enough, the springy effect of W968 still creates a monstrous spin that no blade can surpass.

 

[tabletennisdaily1]

Butterfly has overwhelming ambassadors compared to the all other brands for sure. It makes sense that DHS will start in their own soil, the CNT. So sponsoring CNT with W968 is a natural business move.

Talking about speed and spin, CNT are using the new. slightly tacky H3 on FH. This new faster H3 compensate for the lack of speed in W968. When hitting hard enough, the springy effect of W968 still creates a monstrous spin that no blade can surpass.

Tell me more about this slightly tacky H3! I was watching Sun Yingsha in the the world teams, and noticed before the serve she bounced the ball on the H3 like it was a semi tacky rubber. I know it was probably very boosted, but being new H3, I suspected there was more to the equation.

Recently, I have been more drawn to non tacky but ultra grippy soft top sheets with Chinese style sponge. More consistent feel tack across entire surface, easier to clean by hand (less friction than tacky), less maintenance to keep surface tacky, but with more of the feel and spin of tacky rubbers.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Excellent analysis. This debate between the Vis and 968 camps has been going in China for a while. With more CNT switching away from Vis (LJK and WCQ), the sale of W968 has been going up in China. WCQ's switch to W968 probably had the biggest impact as he is considered the only hope after FZD.

In general W968 favours FH dominated style. The iconic example is ML, and also WCQ. It's an old style in the 40mm ball era. Without W968 it could've died down in the poly ball era.

Vis + ESN rubber setup favours BH dominated style. This style suits the new poly ball much better than the FH style. BH dominated style has many advantages - faster recovery, less movement, conserves energy and faster pace.

I often change my blade based on who I expect to be playing. When I play a strong attacker, I will often use my outer carbon blade because I expect to be doing more BH blocking and counter attacking.

When I feel like I will be doing more of the openers and loops, I will switch to the inner carbon to get a little more dwell time and spin.

Anybody else do this?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

How come no one mention the beloved Hinoki series?

No love for the old school Hinoki camp?

Aruna plays with Hinoki blade. No love for his style of FH topspin?

 

[lodro]

I often change my blade based on who I expect to be playing. When I play a strong attacker, I will often use my outer carbon blade because I expect to be doing more BH blocking and counter attacking.

When I feel like I will be doing more of the openers and loops, I will switch to the inner carbon to get a little more dwell time and spin.

Anybody else do this?

UNFORTUNATELY Yes ! I do change blades depending on the opposition but think it is a silly habit ,
finding it's root in EJism 😁

 

[Lycanthrope]

How to identify an EJ: he has several rackets in his bag, and will change his racket depending on today's feeling or different opponents.

 

[lodro]

How to identify an EJ: he has several rackets in his bag, and will change his racket depending on today's feeling or different opponents.

exactly 😂

 

[Gozo Aruna]

How to identify an EJ: he has several rackets in his bag, and will change his racket depending on today's feeling or different opponents.

Once upon a time, while I was still an EJ, I too have this delusional fantasy, i.e., different set-up for different player type.

However, such delusional fantasy thoughts were quickly ended by more senior / veteran players in my club once I started to join them in inter-club tourneys. They would chastised and admonish me on having such delusional fantasies and I was quickly snapped out of this delusional fantasy.

NB: The word delusional fantasy is repeated six times in my whole posting for the purpose to emphasize that it is a purely delusional fantasy thought.

 

[SFF_lib]

Tell me more about this slightly tacky H3! I was watching Sun Yingsha in the the world teams, and noticed before the serve she bounced the ball on the H3 like it was a semi tacky rubber. I know it was probably very boosted, but being new H3, I suspected there was more to the equation.

Recently, I have been more drawn to non tacky but ultra grippy soft top sheets with Chinese style sponge. More consistent feel tack across entire surface, easier to clean by hand (less friction than tacky), less maintenance to keep surface tacky, but with more of the feel and spin of tacky rubbers.

Get those H3 with the new look. The topsheet will lose the tack fairly quickly. Once I looked at WCQ just before he served, the reflection on his black H3 appeared very matte, in contrast to the traditional gloss look.

 

[SFF_lib]

I often change my blade based on who I expect to be playing. When I play a strong attacker, I will often use my outer carbon blade because I expect to be doing more BH blocking and counter attacking.

When I feel like I will be doing more of the openers and loops, I will switch to the inner carbon to get a little more dwell time and spin.

Anybody else do this?

Never thought about it. It makes perfect sense.

I have two setup - W968 and a defence blade. I use the def blade in case my knee injury returns.

 

[SFF_lib]

How to identify an EJ: he has several rackets in his bag, and will change his racket depending on today's feeling or different opponents.

Tell me about it!!! 😂

 

[SFF_lib]

How come no one mention the beloved Hinoki series?

No love for the old school Hinoki camp?

Aruna plays with Hinoki blade. No love for his style of FH topspin?

I still play my single ply hinoki. Its feel is incomparable.

 

[lodro]

Never thought about it. It makes perfect sense.

I have two setup - W968 and a defence blade. I use the def blade in case my knee injury returns.

Gotcha, I also have a defensive blade , with an H3 on one side and a neo on the other.
I take it to the clubs when I have physically and/or mentally a sheit -day and know
that I won't be able to do much more than block and push, maybe one step to the left and one to the right.

 

[Airoc]

Hugo etc.

Hugo is definitely a great ambassador, but not for Butterfly ;-)