Zhang Jike says inner carbon blades degrade faster than outer carbon blades. Why is that?

[banbekas]

Ding! ding! ding! -- we have a winner folks... (...well kind of... I think 😂).

Honestly speaking, I can't say I've noticed this particular phenomenon myself as a player, as I haven't ever used an inner-composite blade to the point of failure. 🤔🤔 Nor have I ever had a customer or sales rep complain to me before about the life of inner carbon construction blades being generally shorter than that of an outer carbon equivalent (regardless of the brand, type or manufacturer).

What I *can* confirm however is that (generally speaking - as @Tyce correctly points out) there's a potentially higher than normal risk of separation / cracking / delamination problems occuring whenever you try to laminate extremely hard, stiff and inflexible material (such as some modern composite fabrics) directly onto very soft low-density wood (as is often found in your typical blade's core).

In the simplest terms possible, when building a blade, the more dissimilar two proximate materials are in a blade's composition, the more trouble you are going to experience if you also want them to move and flex together. Depending on the materials in question, and the amount of movement you ask of them, sooner or later material fatigue starts to becomes a factor,

You get around this problem by making the relative differences in material properties as small as practically possible, and by ensuring the surrounding layers are lending their support.

When planning a blade you also need to allow anisotropic material to be true to its nature. Wood is *always* going to be substantively stronger or weaker along one plane compared to others (hence the use of the term anisotropic). Sure modern composites can help add symmetrical, multidimensional stiffness to the mix, but that's still doesn't change the underlying nature of the softer weaker wood located right next to it.

In theory, as outer composite layers are typically surrounded by layers of denser harder material than you find in the core, there's a slightly smaller risk of fatigue, as mechanical forces are typically slightly better distributed throughout the layers.

TL: DR Version....

Eh... The general idea has some technical merit to it, but it all depends on the blade in question, the user, and its operating environment.

As always, mileage and/or individual user results may vary.

Basically, the difference isn't significant enough to be noticed. It can go either way after all.

 

[longle]

That's the reason why IMHO everyone should lacquer inner carbon blades, I've kept a Waldner Diablo Senso for 2 decades that way, maybe the inner glassfiber layer helped ? there's actually glassfiber fabric all over the walls in my kitchen and bathroom, it's there since at least 2 or 3 decades, they just paint over and over those walls.

All-wood blades really degrade fast, in feel, in speed, they feel really "weird" after just a few years, we all know that. The first Clipper I've tried was UBER lacquered, because of people using speed glue at that time in 1991 and everyone said it was mandatory to lacquer any all-wood blade.

For the pros, not only men: Jianan Yuan have kept her trusty Timo Boll Spirit for ages, it was not sold anymore for Europe and France so on the official BTY EU website since the introduction of the TB ALC. She replaced it with a Viscaria since only the pandemic or so. I've made a training camp in 2022's summer with a FFTT's certified coach that had still a TBS, his very first carbon blade when he was a teenager. Never used anything else. He was in his 30 in 2022.

my King 3 also has inner glassfiber, the fabrics falling out often but I lacquered the top layer so even it is from 2016 it still looking good and play stably

 

[Zwill]

Lacquering has benefits, I would for sure lacquer limba top plies, especially DHS. They are quite soft and wood strings can peel off your blade after some time. It's super painful if it happens. Lacquering prevents this pretty well. My problem was always that many glues just don't stick to lacquered blades. If you boost your rubber the issue is exponentially worse.

I have brushed a thin layer of DHS lacquer(mini sample bottle) on my W968, since it started to let go some hair wood strings and I was having none of it. I had issue after about my rubbers sticking. I gave it a bit of sanding with very fine sandpaper and after a few more glue jobs it's basically like gluing to normal wood, the bond is very strong. Both Sueke No2 and Suke No2 glue to it amazingly. Other glues I really don't even consider anymore.
Since then no wood strings became loose or peeled.

However Suke No2 I feel is stronger than Sueke No2, so need to be super careful with that since the bond is so strong I fear I will rip the sponge. Many times the glue comes clean off the sponge and remains on the blade.

Others using different lacquer like Donic Formula etc they had different experience, and not for the better. I guess if one used that lacquer and Donic Formula glue then it works somehow, but then one needs to kiss goodbye to peeling glue from sponges easily or totally since the sponge will be ruined after a peel. I reckon it's a benefit for criminals since it will also destroy their fingerprint🫣

 

[Egon]

/the blade flexes more.

In my opinion this is the key

 

[Egon]

However Suke No2 I feel is stronger than Sueke No2

For me, it's the other way around. Sueke №2 itself is thicker and sticks better, while Suke №2 is more liquid and tends to come off both the sponge and the blade. Suke №2 is much easier to remove from the sponge than Sueke №2.

 

[Egon]

Has anyone IRL felt that their outer carbon blades degrades faster than their inners? I'm not sensitive enough to tell.
I don't trust Zhang Jike, while, unquestionably, an amazing player, he's sketchy. In addition, he's selling outer carbon blades atm

My solid wood five-layer Bastian Steger Butterfly blade degraded. At that time, I trained very intensively every day for several hours, and after about half a year, the blade became slow and flexible. I personally have not seen this with carbon blades. But I can say that I often get blades with peeling of the inner carbon layer from the wood for repair. At the same time I have not yet encountered such a thing with external carbon reinforcement. Mostly, the top veneer comes off, or the handles break, the edges of the blade are beaten, but I have not yet seen peeling of the outer carbon from the base.

Addendum. I personally don't like blades with external carbon. I prefer the feel of solid wood blades, so I play with blades with internal carbon, which are closer to them. I haven't had the same problems with my blades as the guys with factory blades. I think this is because we cover both surfaces with glue. Although the instructions for the glue say to cover only one surface. I've also watched a lot of videos about blade manufacturing in factories. They only cover one side of the veneer there....

 

[Zwill]

For me, it's the other way around. Sueke №2 itself is thicker and sticks better, while Suke №2 is more liquid and tends to come off both the sponge and the blade. Suke №2 is much easier to remove from the sponge than Sueke №2.

Maybe it's a production batch thing. I think they should be the same. Anyway both are great.

 

[Tyce]

I respect your opinion but i was always thinking that the aggressive hard hitters preferred the outer carbon blades with (eg.) hard Koto outer layer ???????????

The entire hard hitting Chinese top uses inner fiber limba top blades (968 variants).I guess dwell is king nowadays if you want to generate serious spin

 

[rbtitco]

yeah ,2 outer wood versus 1 outer wood
when you glue every 3 days, and have the feel of the elite, you would have the same conclusion.
Mens hit harder, so change faster than womens.

This kind of thread is the reason why I feel, some information is really not applicable in the amateur space.
Same as some pro charging high prices for "equipment" training.

In summary, when the blade starts to flex, it is unusable.

DIdnt ZJ play with the same old Viscaria for like 7 years? If he can make it last that long, regular dudes with jobs n kids pretty much will never wear a blade out, so maybe hes right.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

DIdnt ZJ play with the same old Viscaria for like 7 years? If he can make it last that long, regular dudes with jobs n kids pretty much will never wear a blade out, so maybe hes right.

ZJK using the same blade for 7 years?

 

[nompute]

He mentioned in one of his livestreams that he sent his blade in to Butterfly for maintenance multiple times.

 

[JJ Ng]

Lacquering has benefits, I would for sure lacquer limba top plies, especially DHS. They are quite soft and wood strings can peel off your blade after some time. It's super painful if it happens. Lacquering prevents this pretty well. My problem was always that many glues just don't stick to lacquered blades. If you boost your rubber the issue is exponentially worse.

I had the same exact problem: trying to glue a heavily boosted and curled up hurricane onto a laquered blade is almost impossible.

Personally, I would not laquer my blade. Nothing is more frustrating when after you boost the rubber, wait for it curl down a bit, put two layers of glue on both the rubber and the blade, then cut it. Finally the rubber came off. You just wasted all the time and money. The amount of money you save on the blade will be much less the money you waste on time and energy.

 

[lodro]

Personally, I would not laquer my blade.

If the lacquer is applied properly, with a lint-free cloth and sparingly
and then lightly block-sanded to cut the gloss, even curled rubbers
will stick well .