Timo Boll posts new photos of his rubbers and blades

[Zaid323918]

In a german foren he wrote that he currently is playing a nonbuyable but already registered Tenergy version on his forehand. Most likely T09C

Could I have the link?

 

[yogi_bear]

Nope. Mxp rubbers were used long before they were commercially available. As long as they are in the ittf larc, pros can use the rubbers.

Interesting. I've just read it.
I always thought that only rubbers that are publicly available are allowed.
Would love to see that rubber. People have been assuming that it has a semi-tacky topsheet.

 

[jawien]

Nope. Mxp rubbers were used long before they were commercially available. As long as they are in the ittf larc, pros can use the rubbers.

So my old, Formula 1 analogy stands ...

 

[Suga D]

Could I have the link?

There ya go, mate.
https://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?p=3027379

Nope. Mxp rubbers were used long before they were commercially available. As long as they are in the ittf larc, pros can use the rubbers.

Are you really sure, Yogi?

I think i remember a thread quite a while ago where someone quoted that paragraph of the rules. I can't find it right now, but if i will, i will post it.
If I recall correctly then we had this discussion a few years back.
Back then when authentic National and provincial rubbers were hard to get hold of. And someone posted that segment of the rules and saying what DHS was doing was against the rules since all rubbers would have to be able to be purchased. He wrote that and added the rule.
[EDIT: and suddenly somehow these rubbers were much easier to purchase. They even sold 'em at the official DHS stand at the WTTC 2017.
[Emoji6]]

So not to question your competence and maybe i start developing old man memory and my mind is playing tricks on me but my gut feeling tells me I'm not so far off.

But the rules also could have also been changed meanwhile. That thread with that discussion must have been in 2015 or 2014 or something like that. I was quite new to the forum back then.

So thanks for your feedback. Anyhow maybe someone can find that part of the rules and quote it here.

Man, where's Zeio when ya need him.
[Emoji12]

 

[Konrad Bak]

Samsonov used MX S before people would be allowed to buy them in store

 

[Tommy16]

I think Yogi is right. For example quite many pros are playing with Dignics (maybe I miss spell this) which isn´t available publicly available just yet.

There ya go, mate.
https://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?p=3027379



Are you really sure, Yogi?

I think i remember a thread quite a while ago where someone quoted that paragraph of the rules. I can't find it right now, but if i will, i will post it.
If I recall correctly then we had this discussion a few years back.
Back then when authentic National and provincial rubbers were hard to get hold of. And someone posted that segment of the rules and saying what DHS was doing was against the rules since all rubbers would have to be able to be purchased. He wrote that and added the rule.

So not to question your competence and maybe i start developing old man memory and my mind is playing tricks on me but my gut feeling tells me I'm not so far off.

But the rules also could have also been changed meanwhile. That thread with that discussion must have been in 2015 or 2014 or something like that. I was quite new to the forum back then.

So thanks for your feedback. Anyhow maybe someone can find that part of the rules and quote it here.

Man, where's Zeio when ya need him.
[Emoji12]

 

[langel]

I think that there is no other rule than the ITTF LARC registration and authantication.
In fact its impossible to monitor publicity in a trusted way, if its done prices would jump triple and the Dignics would cost 270$, we don't need that.

 

[Suga D]

I think Yogi is right. For example quite many pros are playing with Dignics (maybe I miss spell this) which isn´t available publicly available just yet.

No question about that, when even Timo himself admits trying out something unavailable.
But that's missing the point. My question was if that isn't against the rules.

I know many don't take the rules too seriously, if you think about hiding serves or using microwaved LP or boosted rubbers, but i'd just like to know what the rules exactly say.

 

[Lula]

No question about that, when even Timo himself admits trying out something unavailable.
But that's missing the point. My question was if that isn't against the rules.

I know many don't take the rules too seriously, if you think about hiding serves or using microwaved LP or boosted rubbers, but i'd just like to know what the rules exactly say.

Do people microwave long pimples? i have only heard about sundried long pimple.

 

[langel]

Another aspect - if we have to monitor market availability , on every ITTF Open half of the players would not be able to register just because their rubbers are not available on the regional market. For example I would not allow Calderano at Bulgaria Open as the Xiom Omega 7 Tour is still not available here, what a shame!

 

[Suga D]

I think that there is no other rule than the ITTF LARC registration and authantication.
In fact its impossible to monitor publicity in a trusted way, if its done prices would jump triple and the Dignics would cost 270$, we don't need that.

I couldn't find it yet.
I thought it was in ITTF technical leaflet T4 about racket coverings
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf
but couldn't find it. Just couldn't wrap my brain around this technical language. Maybe someone else can.
Meanwhile i will try to look through my 3000 posts and hope I'll find it. Not even sure if I've actively participated in that thread.

Anyhow, somewhere in the leaflet it says that a rubber that comes in different sponges needs ITTF approval for every version they make [e.g. bluesponge]
So if a company has to pay all the fees for approval it would absolutely make no sense that they don't try to get back their invested money by not making the rubber publicly available and selling the rubber officially.
So maybe there is some sort of grey area timeperiod where rubbers get the approval to be able to be tested under competitive conditions and if they see it doesn't workout they pull it again.

Anything else doesn't make a lot of sense IMHO.

 

[Brs]

Timo has six blades because X number of people wiæl see that and think "I only have two TB ALCs. I'm going to buy four more right now."

Cha-ching!

 

[Suga D]

Do people microwave long pimples? i have only heard about sundried long pimple.

Some get quite creative.
[Emoji12]

 

[langel]

I couldn't find it yet.
I thought it was in ITTF technical leaflet T4 about racket coverings
https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/T4_Racket_Coverings_BOD2017.pdf_0.pdf
but couldn't find it. Just couldn't wrap my brain around this technical language. Maybe someone else can.
Meanwhile i will try to look through my 3000 posts and hope I'll find it. Not even sure if I've actively participated in that thread.

Anyhow, somewhere in the leaflet it says that a rubber that comes in different sponges needs ITTF approval for every version they make [e.g. bluesponge]
So if a company has to pay all the fees for approval it would absolutely make no sense that they don't try to get back their invested money by not making the rubber publicly available and selling the rubber officially.
So maybe there is some sort of grey area timeperiod where rubbers get the approval to be able to be tested under competitive conditions and if they see it doesn't workout they pull it again.

Anything else doesn't make a lot of sense IMHO.

My answer may be wrong, or may be not, I don't know.
What I know is that ITTF cares about the LARC registration only. everything concerning market availability is very very hypothetically wishfull and every "logical" aspects about the corelation between registration expences and market giveback are really logicalq but wishfull.
I'd say it again - at least half of the players would not be allowed on regional tours because of no regional availability of their rubbers.
Another question - have someone ever seen Xiom Sigma III? It was LARC registered and ITTF competition valid due 30th June 2017. I've been waiting for it, but it never appeared. But can we be shure that no player have ever used it in a competition? No - it was registered and the only ITTF responsibility is to follow the registry.

 

[Suga D]

Well, from that point of view you could be right, but I'm not making things up here. That discussion was real. If I find it I'll post it.
But the point back then was that DHS had to make their national and provincial versions commercially purchasable otherwise they wouldn't be allowed.
But if you read my posts and the leaflet T4 carefully you'll see i've admitted Yogi isn't wrong and there is a time period for testing since these are two separate fees for the companies to be paid.
The testing fee and the approval fee!

Not sure if I've found the right thread that initiated the discussion but this here might be it.


https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...w-About-80-of-pro-s-are-using-illegal-rackets

A few quotes:

If you read the full source article, Timo Boll made some very powerful points. I summarize:

1. He can't get the rubbers that the Chinese team uses in commercial stores.
2. He uses rubbers that are 100% commercially available in commercial stores (he has said this before in other contexts but people have treated it in the past as advertising hype).
3. The Chinese team publically and admittedly boost their rackets. Wang Hao has shown how he prepares and boosts his racket on TV.
4. He doesn't boost his rackets.

Many people are calling this a case of sour grapes. It's a really sad commentary on our sport today when the greatest non-Chinese player in the world in recent times is being laughed off on TT forums for stating things we obviously know are true, but because Ma Long is looping Boll off the table, we think that Boll is just complaining unfairly.

We could of course add in that Timo is one of the cleanest servers in the game. Then you wonder how much current rules and their enforcement lapses are screwing him...

I don't think you have read Timo Boll's comments.

"Ich will nicht behaupten, dass die chinesische Stärke allein auf den Belägen beruht. Sie haben die besten Bedingungen, die meisten Trainer, das meiste Geld. Aber es ist sicher, sie könnten manchen Ball nicht so spielen, wie sie ihn spielen, und manche Schläge hätten nicht die Qualität, die sie im Moment haben. Wenn die Chinesen einen tollen Belag entwickelt hätten, der allen überlegen ist, dann wäre das ja in Ordnung. Dann könnte ich ihn mir im Laden kaufen, oder ich könnte den Ausrüster wechseln. Aber chinesische Schläger, die gibt es nirgendwo zu kaufen und die Beläge werden noch behandelt. Sie haben da übrigens gar kein Unrechtsbewusstsein, für sie ist regelkonform, was durch die Tests kommt. Der Spieler Wang Hao hat einmal in einer Livesendung des chinesischen Fernsehens demonstriert, wie sie den Schläger präparieren. Dabei ist jede Nachbehandlung ausdrücklich verboten, eigentlich war das der Nachweis eines Betrugs. Ich dagegen bin mit einem Schläger konkurrenzfähig, der nicht nur messtechnisch regelkonform ist, sondern den Regeln zu 100 Prozent entspricht. Noch mehr: Ich spiele mit Belägen, die man im Laden kaufen kann. Da gibt es keinen Unterschied. Ich habe ein absolut reines Gewissen."


The part in bold, I hear, translates thus:

" But the Chinese racquets can't be bought anywhere, and the rubbers are further chemically treated. The Chinese have no sense of wrongdoing at all about this, by the way; to them, everything they do is in accordance with the rules as long as the racquet passes the tests. The player Wang Hao once demonstrated during a live broadcast on Chinese TV how they prepare the racquet. But since any post-factory treatment is explicitly forbidden, this was actually evidence of fraud.I, however, am competitive with a racquet which is not only compliant to the rules according to the test results, but it even is 100% in accordance with the rules [as they are written]. Even more, I play with rubbers that can be bought in stores. There's no difference between my rubbers and those available in the stores. I have an absolutely clean conscience."

We are having a debate here as well:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74402&PN=5&title=timo-boll-interview

Here's what someone wrote on NL's mytt-link.

[Direct Link To This Post spec 02/03/2016 at 10:31am Quote spec

The national version of H3 is already available on the market. It costs $90.

Timo Boll literally says that he cannot buy the rubbers that the CNT uses. I refuse to believe that you know ways of getting them that he doesn't.

Meanwhile back at TTD:

reference: http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/me...-boll-ueber-tricks-von-chinesen-14043588.html

Full Interview translation:

Table tennis star Timo Boll "80 percent are cheating"

Hard or soft, round or like an egg: Table tennis player Timo Boll speaks in FAZ.NET interview about the pitfalls of new plastic balls, chemically treated rubbers - and the tricks of the unbeatable Chinese.

Many players are complaining about the new table tennis balls made of plastic. How much did they change the game?

I am one of the players,who doesn t think the change is really extrem.Form my point of view,the problem is mainly that there are many different types of balls. Although they are all made of plastic, they have rather different properties.Like the bounce on the table,as well as how the ball is catapulted out of the bat and the grip of the ball on the table.Unlike before there are now immense differences.
Many have adjustment problems. Especially when in the week before the game,there is no opportunity to train with the competition balls.

With how many different balls from different manufacturers did you play yet?

I train when the game takes place on Fridays or Sundays, the whole week with the same balls. So you need a certain arsenal of balls. There are three balls, which are the best by far: Butterfly, Joola and Nittaku. The three also differ in each case a bit, but they are all hard, really round, and it's just fun to play with them. Then there are the bad balls from other manufacturers, which are probably from the same production factory. They are soft, round like eggs. But those are mainly played.

How so?

There supplier contracts with the organizers of tournaments and championships. And who gives the best deal is considered.
And you actually have every ball of each brand in order to train with them?
I really got any ball lying in my closet.
How do you organize this? Do you buy or order them?

From my equipment provider Butterfly it is no problem of cause, the other ones I just pick up somewhere or just ask the other companys if I could have a box.
What makes a ball into a hard ball and what to a soft?

I have many years of experience with the previous celluloid balls. And when you hit the ball in a certain angle or with a specific rotation or a certain hardness, then you expect a certain reaction of the ball, it jumps in a certain manner of the racket. With hard plastic this is also almost always the case. The soft balls fail. Balls with heavy spin don´t bounce properly.Usually you can return a ball, which was hit hard,with a hard stroke but those balls don t accelerate problerly and don t even fly over the net. The quality of the game suffers in a sustainable manner, because the players are feeling insecure. Some are suffering a serious blow. The rallies have gotten worse on average.

Worse product, poorer market opportunities.Must the table tennis associations react to this and no longer take the balls that get the most financial gain and secure the quality of the sport?

I understand that the companys need a certain amount of time in order to adjust to plastic. We players have accepted that. Nothing changed for a few months, time and time again, we are told it is impossible to do better than this.

But there are the counterexamples.

Naturally. Butterfly for example works with a company together, which manufactures the balls of deodorant-rollers and thus they ensure that the balls are really round. So it is possible to do better. I don't understand why the Table Tennis Companys don't pull the plug, when they are receiving low quality products for their money.


And the table tennis Associations that organize championships and tournaments, should not take the balls, which bring the most money,but rather the best ones?

We players would be happy about that.

In return the players forego their prize money?

There is barely any prize money anyway. There are barely any sponsors, the organizers save on the equipment and increase the prices for hotels and meals to earn some money by the players. Fortunately, many athletes have their own supplier contracts that guarantee them the expenses for two, three World Ranking Tournaments. Or the National Association pays the costs. But as before, that many traveled at their own risk around the world, to play and to collect world ranking points, it is no longer. Since you would have to take in hand a lot of money.In the Old times many players traveled around the world at their own riskto play and collect world ranking points,but it is not like that anymore.Now you would need a lot of money for that.
Is the game changing,because of the plastic ball?

there is less spin in the game, but not as extreme as some may expected. Some believed that I would face some difficulties, because I play with a lot of rotation and spin. But it is going quit well. I have to work more with my body during stroking, to speed up the ball, but the difference is not extrem. Many poeple suggest, there are a lot of injured players now , because they have to invest so much in every stroke, since the introduction of the plastic ball. But I always invested the maximum in each stroke. And more is impossible. Maybe the others finally understood that you simply always use the maximum power in every stroke.I don´t feel more burdened. The rallys aren´t longer.

In addition to the balls the tubbers are critical to the quality of the game. It is said that the outstanding Chinese have an advantage in this area. How can that be?

The rubbers are an extreme advantage for the Chinese.

This is difficult to understand for an outsider. It ultimately involves only a piece of rubber. If you take a look at what complicated technologies are copied in Formula 1 , then you would think the competitors are gonna catch up with any advantage.

The rubber technology is a real science. Naturally there are rules. But the measurement and control procedures can´t reliable check compliance with the rules.

The rackets, which were previously controlled in the test were all rule compliant. But 80 percent - so my estimate - still did not meet the rules.In order to prove this, the Rubber has to be removed from the racket and sent to the lab. That's what I am encouraging since long ago. But the International Association considers this unreasonable. No players pays for his equipment , and it also means no effort to glue the rubber again. Anyone who adheres to the rules,is at a clear disadvantage.

Which infringement is committed?
The Rubbers are treated with chemicals to increase the catapult effect when hitting. This apllies not only for the Chinese players, but for Europeans and other Asians to

How do you know that?

I have played with the material of players who have treated their rubbers. There was a certain difference. And then I've tested the racket of a colleague in China . (Note .: Boll played repeatedly for Chinese clubs in the local league). Let me put it this way: If the chinese play a topspin with my racket and their usualy technique, then the ball stays on their on half of the table.

Then the secret is revealed,how the unbeatable Chinese can be defeated:you steal their rackets or make working controls .

I do not suggest that the Chinese strength is based solely on the rubbers. They have the best conditions, most coaches, the most money.
But it is certain that they could not play some ball the way they play it, and some strokes would not have the same quality that they have at the moment. If the Chinese had developed a great rubber that is superior to all others, that would be fine. Then I could buy it in the store, or I could change the supplier. You can´t buy Chinese rackets anywhere and the rubbers are treated to.They have no sense of wrongdoing, for them what goes through the tests conforms to the rules. The player Wang Hao ones demonstrated in a live broadcast of the Chinese television, how they prepare the racket. Each treatment is expressly prohibited, actually that was the detection of fraud. On the other hand I am competitive with my racket,which is not only metrological rule compliant, but also 100 percent corresponds to the rules.Even more: I play with rubbersthat you can buy at the store. Since there is no difference. I have an absolutely clean conscience.

And are you a do-gooder who sticks to the rules, even if all other cheat?

I am just like this.My leitmotiv is indeed well known.Table tennis is my love and you shouldn t cheat on your love.An example: I once played against an opponent who drove me almost insane because he made only incorrect service by hiding the ball with his body. Of course, the referee did not notice anything. I was really upset but said nothing. It so happened that we played against each other again next weekend. So I studied on a serve the whole week , which was even meaner and wrong. And what happened when we encountered one another? I have the bonus is not used, I just could not.I didn´t use the serve because, I just simply couldn´t do it.

Holy shit I just noticed this beast took me 5 h I hope you can enjoy and understand.Going to bed now have a great day!

They could implement a rule like they used to have in the WRC that any equipment used need to be sold to the public to. So no Blue sponge H3 or W997 bats that are only give to the Chines team.

Very true. After all China will have to either settle with lesser quality rubbers to level the competition or supply enough blue sponge H3 with reasonable pricing to make everyone happy. No matter how evil Butterfly is, at least their Pro Tenergy is wildly available to every top players around the world including China. Why can't DHS do the same?

Have i now been able to change your mind?
[Emoji6]

 

[yogi_bear]

Suga d, i dunno if you remember a post in mytt years ago where a kid was sponsored by tibhar and he had all evolution rubbers BEFORE they were available in the market. I also remember the evolution series came out in the LARC about 1 to 2 years before but Samsoniv was already using them.

 

[Konrad Bak]

Samsonov had white sponge rubber before K1 was released. Yogi has 1000% rights

 

[langel]

SugaD, yes I remember very well these discussions and the funnt animated movies about the interviews of Timo Boll and the position of ITTF.
But all that can not change the fact that IITF is absolutely unable to follow any "market availability" rule, and it doesn't, no matter how wishfull.
Can someone formulate an objectively effective mechanism for doing this?
How a market availability would be confirmed and what about regional markets availability, regional suppliers restrictions, brand market strategy and so on?
Should a player register to a competition showing internet pictures of e-stores, or showing hardcopy bills as a purchasing evidence? And what happens if this stuff for some reasons is not available in my region - would I be able to ban the players using such equipment? Because what Boll say is exactly this - its impossible for me to buy their equipment, so they should be banned. But they cannot be banned because there is no working mechanism to prove and judge.
So no matter how rightfull and wishfull all that is, ITTF cannot look elsewhere, but LARC only.

 

[Suga D]

SugaD, yes I remember very well these discussions and the funnt animated movies about the interviews of Timo Boll and the position of ITTF.
But all that can not change the fact that IITF is absolutely unable to follow any "market availability" rule, and it doesn't, no matter how wishfull.
Can someone formulate an objectively effective mechanism for doing this?
How a market availability would be confirmed and what about regional markets availability, regional suppliers restrictions, brand market strategy and so on?
Should a player register to a competition showing internet pictures of e-stores, or showing hardcopy bills as a purchasing evidence? And what happens if this stuff for some reasons is not available in my region - would I be able to ban the players using such equipment? Because what Boll say is exactly this - its impossible for me to buy their equipment, so they should be banned. But they cannot be banned because there is no working mechanism to prove and judge.
So no matter how rightfull and wishfull all that is, ITTF cannot look elsewhere, but LARC only.

Man, i don´t know how come you remember, when you weren´t even joining the forum back then.
Some special magic tricks, langel?

So are you saying Timo has been complaining for nothing, and everyone was discussing some hypthetical garbage back then. Right?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
[Emoji6]
but actually that really doesn't convince me and in fact rather sounds like another unenforcable rule to me, just like the hidden serves or the boosting rule.

Look Langel, i really appreciate your opinion. But to me it's nothing more nothing less. An opinion. Would love that someone would quote the OFFICIAL rule, like Zeio often does.
Even if it would say: "Suga D, you're completely wrong and talking trash in this case."

But since no one seems to be willing and able to do so, i will stop hijacking this thread, and instead send an Email to the ITTF. They seem to be quite responsive.

 

[langel]

Ok, it will be really good to have the answer right from ITTF.

Meanwhile I tryed to find all ITTF regulations concerning rubbers.
In fact I found nothing about "market availability" or something like that.

https://www.ittf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/2018ITTFHandbook_v2.pdf_0.pdf

The articles I found to concern rubbers/rocket are:
2.4 to 2.4.8 , 3.2.1.4 , 3.2.4 to 3.2.4.5 , 3.4.2.2 to 3.4.2.5

Do I miss something?