Tensorlike rubbers on innercarbon blades

[Attitude]

One of my remaining issues with my Sword Vsea:

My bh is kinda too weak. Though it is one more bigger strength because techniquewise im capable of flipping and looping almost everything with it. But currently with my blade+H3 37 im lacking 2 things.
1. Sometimes power especially in openings and and shots over the table
2. Consistency. I have serious issues finishing through my bh. While i can open up my finishes are too weak as well and if hit harder my shot get really inconsistent.

Im completely aware that i might be able to resolve this through training. But my frustration here comes from the fact that i am already capable of doing the things mentioned above. At the time i player with outer alc blades i had the bh of my dreams and mentioned issues were close to nonexistent.

Well you might ask, if i am stupid or smth and dont switch back. The reason for that is, that i dont have the same abilities on fh with it. And some time ago i made the decision to trade the weaker bh for a better fh. I am now able to counter loop and play the ball in many more ways than before, therefore i dont really wanna go for the outer alc route. At least not for now.

So before i try several options aside from training, i wanted to ask if anyone has some experience with bouncier/softer rubbers on bh on an inner ac blade?
How do they compare to setups on an outeralc blade in terms of feeling, speed and spin?
Are there any drawbacks/tradeoffs?
Or should i simply go for it?^^

One of the rubbers i plan on testing on that blade would be Yinhe moon blue 12 (yeah i got myself a harder one @longle xD) or Vega X.

Any input is welcome

 

[Emin]

I also dont want to switch to outer blade, purely because its to demanding to adapt on the forehand.

G-1 works for me.
It serves a similar purpose as a tacky rubber does on an outer ALC blade.
It kinda sticks out among ESN rubbers.
Due to not being tacky and being on the inner blade, the dwell time is similar to tacky rubber on outer blade.
Quite linear in power and speed output.
Not a big catapult effect that causes high and uncontrollable angles.
Spin is obviously very high.

Like all rubbers, it has its pros and cons, but for me it works best right now.
I dont need the extra quality from something faster or tacky yet.


Other than that I tried these non-tacky ones:
Stiga DNA Hybrid XH, almost non-tacky, very grippy, but play more like a ESN rubber
Currently Stiga Mantra Pro XH, glued on stuor Harimoto ALC, maybe H would be better for backhand, works pretty well so far, can recommend

For technique/training:

WCQs backhand technique is kind of an advanced version of MLs backhand.
Not like FZD or LSD in that matter ( both outer ALC users).
He uses more straightening of the arm, than just forearm and wrist.

Ovtcharov is kinda in between ML and FZD, closer to FZD.
He can use more of his strong body and muscles for power.
Another aspect is:
Using body force when generating power.
Almost like a frog jump forwards.
Standing on the balls of the feet ( as you always should), leaning forward and really using your body weight to push yourself forward.
Sometimes more, sometimes less.
Sometimes more forward, sometimes more upward.
In either case using your body weight and center of gravity to assist you with that.
More than you already do.
Its not easy to do, its on my priority list for improvement after I get some more important things down.
If backhand power is really your priority, then this would be my advice.

Also more open racket angle and hitting forward helps, but again, for that you need more power output.

If you

TLDR:
Try G-1.
Maybe Mantra Pro H/XH or DNA Hybrid XH/H.

More forearm straightening and snapping for technique adjustment.
Body weight and center of gravity for more power.

 

[longle]

One of my remaining issues with my Sword Vsea:

My bh is kinda too weak. Though it is one more bigger strength because techniquewise im capable of flipping and looping almost everything with it. But currently with my blade+H3 37 im lacking 2 things.
1. Sometimes power especially in openings and and shots over the table
2. Consistency. I have serious issues finishing through my bh. While i can open up my finishes are too weak as well and if hit harder my shot get really inconsistent.

Im completely aware that i might be able to resolve this through training. But my frustration here comes from the fact that i am already capable of doing the things mentioned above. At the time i player with outer alc blades i had the bh of my dreams and mentioned issues were close to nonexistent.

Well you might ask, if i am stupid or smth and dont switch back. The reason for that is, that i dont have the same abilities on fh with it. And some time ago i made the decision to trade the weaker bh for a better fh. I am now able to counter loop and play the ball in many more ways than before, therefore i dont really wanna go for the outer alc route. At least not for now.

So before i try several options aside from training, i wanted to ask if anyone has some experience with bouncier/softer rubbers on bh on an inner ac blade?
How do they compare to setups on an outeralc blade in terms of feeling, speed and spin?
Are there any drawbacks/tradeoffs?
Or should i simply go for it?^^

One of the rubbers i plan on testing on that blade would be Yinhe moon blue 12 (yeah i got myself a harder one @longle xD) or Vega X.

Any input is welcome

if you feel that your shots aren't "solid" it mostly comes from the blade. A harder rubber may help to balance it a bit.

 

[lodro]

how about a DHS Hurricane G - blade ?
A side for the BH and a different one for the FH

 

[Zwill]

I don't know why but from the blades I tried the Moon 12 has always been very good on koto top ply despite inner or outer carbon and on limba top plies very forgettable.

On W968 for me G-1 with a light layer of FTL was the best (without FTL G-1 is only "OK"/MEH). I suppose newer ESN rubbers are mimicking something similar anyway with their factory boost. If it were up to me I might consider Gewo Nexxus 48 XT for BH use if I picked up my W968 just to give it a bit more forward ping instead of the G-1.
Or if ESN is not "mandatory" then Mantra Pro M as that is also fast by default.

 

[longle]

I don't know why but from the blades I tried the Moon 12 has always been very good on koto top ply despite inner or outer carbon and on limba top plies very forgettable.

On W968 for me G-1 with a light layer of FTL was the best (without FTL G-1 is only "OK"/MEH). I suppose newer ESN rubbers are mimicking something similar anyway with their factory boost. If it were up to me I might consider Gewo Nexxus 48 XT for BH use if I picked up my W968 just to give it a bit more forward ping instead of the G-1.
Or if ESN is not "mandatory" then Mantra Pro M as that is also fast by default.

Moon 12 on ZJK ALC is so mediocre. On Dynasty and King 3, it's powerful.

To find a blade+rubber combination that works, may take one person a whole life. The quickest way is to follow what the pros are using

 

[Zwill]

Moon 12 on ZJK ALC is so mediocre. On Dynasty and King 3, it's powerful.

To find a blade+rubber combination that works, may take one person a whole life. The quickest way is to follow what the pros are using

The H- I have cut originally to W968 I have tried last time with Sanwei 75 PBO which is like a 6mm thickish TB ZLC but it was so fine. But that is not a Viscaria type blade. Maybe I will try it on one if I feel like it.
On Cybershape the M- is pretty great too. I have an M+ incoming for the Cybershape.
M- is nice since on a Cybershape it's only 45g cut, hope the M+ is not much heavier and may impart more spin on the ball. H- feels to me it can impart more spin than the M-, so something in between should be nice.

 

[Attitude]

I try to sum up most of the stuff that got brought up here:

G1 on bh might be a decent idea, because it feels more linear and therefore harder than usual 47° rubbers.
Techniquewise im quite aware what i need to do. Not 100% sure im actually doing it but it feels that i have way less room for error with my current setup at least when i attack. Defensewise im quite happy with h3 on bh. Within drive shots as well. But usually it is the other way around and now im missing my deadlier flicks and strong bh counters.

Funny enough a Mantra Pro M (although not a H/XH) is on the way.

The snapping advice is a huge issue of mine. Normally i flick the shit out of everything with less forearm but way more wrist movement. That just simply doesnt seem to work with this setup.

In terms of blades i do know that the Vsea is slower and less crisp than most HL5 builds. Maybe the inc Yasaka Atletico power will help too^^ Some testing will be in order after the current season.

DHS Hurricane G is not an option lodro because im quite dissappointed by DHS blades and as ive talked about several blademakers about heterogenous blades, the different sides dont give you a complete different feeling. You always hit with your full blade and therefore you always have the other side too with which you are hitting - hope that is not too cryptic. Cant really explain it much better^^

Btw Moon 12 on Pro 01 was pretty awesome for me. A bit slow but a breeze to use for everything.


So it kinda comes down to test G1, switch to a blade with a little more power or still go back to outer alc and train more fh.

 

[Topspinslinger]

Donic bluestorm z1 is good

 

[Migzkulit]

Ah, the problems of outer vs inner alc. I solved the problem by getting an oversized outer carbon blade.

For me, as I have tried to transition and sacrificed my FH to improve my backhand, soft rubbers below 48 degrees don't mesh well. The carbon already kicks in late, and the soft rubber activates early. It just plays like an outer alc but with harder rubbers.

Unfortunately not much of a difference except playing feel. You will encounter the same problems again.

 

[latej]

Hey @Attitude , I kind of went through similar experience, I liked (I still like) the H3 H37 on the BH. You can open nicely, there is control, and I liked the feedback. Somehow I didn't particularly like the H8-80 H37 on the BH though. Anyway, as I said earlier, I got overpowered in exchanges. So I switched to ESN like Rakza X, G1 (not sure which one was earlier now), then Vega X... It felt better, I took 2.0 because it felt better for blocking... Then I saw on TTD that you use H3 H37 on the BH and I thought, H.S. his BH must be so good, how T.H. can he sustain exchanges ;-)

So, I've settled on the hardness, the 47-48 feels optimal on the BH now. It seems you have similar preference. The G1 is slower than Rakza X, and Rakza X also feels grippier, the top-sheet felt a bit softer, I liked it very much. I'd bet that if you take G1 and play with it, it will be only once (change station), the opening/flipping didn't feelt so good with G1. OK, it may be me, but it is my bet anyway... Now I can get Xiom Vega in good price, and Vega X surprisingly feels pretty good, I have 2nd sheet now. It feels a bit harder, I mean the sponge hardness is very close, the top-sheet feels harder, but, it is still nice, grippy and good for opening. Also, the speed is similar to Rakza X, maybe a bit faster... I'd be interested in Rakza XX, I think I'd enjoy it too, but there is not a big motivation now... Tomorrow I'm yet to test the Vega Pro, again similar sponge hardness, but the top-sheet a bit softer than Vega X... I think I'll like it, and perhaps you'd too...

Now it's off season and my goal is to improve the BH, and for the question, what is the upgrade of Vega X 2.0, the answer is clear, Vega X max, meaning I want to get the BH to the state where I can block with max just as well as with 2.0, but utilize the spin potential of max... And actually, now I think the next BH rubber I'll try Vega Pro max (depending on tomorrow), and sometime later the Vega X max... The Mantra Pro M would interest me too, @Zwill recommends it, but I'll not get it soon now...

You've also asked about outer ALC. I briefly tried the BigDipper H38 on the Viscaria and yes, the Viscaria helps here. On slower hits the BD H38 was slower than my main setup, and I put some balls to the net. The BD's top-sheet also doesn't feelt as right as the rubbers mentioned above... Inner ALC is what I like... Now I briefly tried the XVT Hinoki Carbon - it is an inner blade - with Battle 3 H39 and Xiom Vega Europe 2.0. The blade I think, is really very good, I mean, if you happen to like the carbon feedback. It is such a difference to ALC, but some people prefer it. The Vega Europe is too soft, this is a setup for a friend, but I'm afraid he won't use it much (will be a backup ;-) ). I still owe to write about Battle 3 in another thread, didn't have much time lately...

 

[Zwill]

Probably the Vega X is really fine. What has kept me from trying it is the reports of it being heavy. Around 52g cut for a standard BTY head with max sponge. I suppose 2.0mm is sufficient too and then maybe it's more like ~48g. The G-1 superthick is also "just" 2.0mm.

 

[Kazama]

Checkout Yinhe Pro 13 S. Viscaria BH and Hurricane 301 FH is the idea with this asymmetric blade I think.

 

[latej]

Probably the Vega X is really fine. What has kept me from trying it is the reports of it being heavy. Around 52g cut for a standard BTY head with max sponge. I suppose 2.0mm is sufficient too and then maybe it's more like ~48g. The G-1 superthick is also "just" 2.0mm.

I've put together some weights:

• Viscaria 88g, 1450 Hz (not sure here), DFVP H40, Yinhe Big Dipper H38 => 192g (with some 1-2mm overlap over soft-edge tape)
• Vodak Horejsi ALC 89g, 1290 Hz (not sure here), Rxton 9 H40.5, Vega X 2.0 => 189g (with some 1-2mm overlap over soft-edge tape)
• Vodak Horejsi APC 88g, 1320 Hz, Xiom J&H Z 52.5, Vega Pro 2.0 => 185g (with no overlap but full soft-edge tape)
• XVT Hinoki Carbon 84g, 1480 Hz, Battle 3 H39, Vega Europe 2.0 => 181g (with normal tape)

I don't have indiv. rubber weights, I kind of don't care - was used to NTH3PTB ;-) Anyway, getting a bit off-topic...

 

[Attitude]

Hey @Attitude , I kind of went through similar experience, I liked (I still like) the H3 H37 on the BH. You can open nicely, there is control, and I liked the feedback. Somehow I didn't particularly like the H8-80 H37 on the BH though. Anyway, as I said earlier, I got overpowered in exchanges. So I switched to ESN like Rakza X, G1 (not sure which one was earlier now), then Vega X... It felt better, I took 2.0 because it felt better for blocking... Then I saw on TTD that you use H3 H37 on the BH and I thought, H.S. his BH must be so good, how T.H. can he sustain exchanges ;-)

So, I've settled on the hardness, the 47-48 feels optimal on the BH now. It seems you have similar preference. The G1 is slower than Rakza X, and Rakza X also feels grippier, the top-sheet felt a bit softer, I liked it very much. I'd bet that if you take G1 and play with it, it will be only once (change station), the opening/flipping didn't feelt so good with G1. OK, it may be me, but it is my bet anyway... Now I can get Xiom Vega in good price, and Vega X surprisingly feels pretty good, I have 2nd sheet now. It feels a bit harder, I mean the sponge hardness is very close, the top-sheet feels harder, but, it is still nice, grippy and good for opening. Also, the speed is similar to Rakza X, maybe a bit faster... I'd be interested in Rakza XX, I think I'd enjoy it too, but there is not a big motivation now... Tomorrow I'm yet to test the Vega Pro, again similar sponge hardness, but the top-sheet a bit softer than Vega X... I think I'll like it, and perhaps you'd too...

Now it's off season and my goal is to improve the BH, and for the question, what is the upgrade of Vega X 2.0, the answer is clear, Vega X max, meaning I want to get the BH to the state where I can block with max just as well as with 2.0, but utilize the spin potential of max... And actually, now I think the next BH rubber I'll try Vega Pro max (depending on tomorrow), and sometime later the Vega X max... The Mantra Pro M would interest me too, @Zwill recommends it, but I'll not get it soon now...

You've also asked about outer ALC. I briefly tried the BigDipper H38 on the Viscaria and yes, the Viscaria helps here. On slower hits the BD H38 was slower than my main setup, and I put some balls to the net. The BD's top-sheet also doesn't feelt as right as the rubbers mentioned above... Inner ALC is what I like... Now I briefly tried the XVT Hinoki Carbon - it is an inner blade - with Battle 3 H39 and Xiom Vega Europe 2.0. The blade I think, is really very good, I mean, if you happen to like the carbon feedback. It is such a difference to ALC, but some people prefer it. The Vega Europe is too soft, this is a setup for a friend, but I'm afraid he won't use it much (will be a backup ;-) ). I still owe to write about Battle 3 in another thread, didn't have much time lately...

Well thanks for the praise^^ and yeah i can play with it quite decent. And i am definitly not talking about shots i suddenly cant do. It just feels harder with my current technique. As gordon mentioned, flicking the wrist is far from enough and with too much power becomes an unstable movement. That results is several issues sadly.

So i suppose im back into hardcore bh training and testing a whole lot stuff again^^
Next testing might be the xuperman rubber fh and stiga mantra pro m for bh.

Although i might test Atletico power with the current setup first. Maybe that blade might resolve some of the issues already.

 

[blahness]

It depends on which poison you want. Faster setups (for eg faster rubbers or blades) will allow you to finish points much easier as you get extra speed without committing so much on the body. But on the other hand you get additional difficulties in the short game. For me I chose to go for a fast af setup as a shortcut to become a topspin monster, and in return for that I have to then work hard on my short game. It's not impossible actually once you know the secrets to momentum absorption, as long as I identify the incoming spin I can quite reliably drop the serves short.

Slower setups for eg Hurricane or inner ALC is really a shortcut for short game, but then it's physically harder to play them.

 

[Choosikick]

I also play with an internally reinforced blade and tend to use longer strokes. Right now I like G1 on the backhand. What's good about G1 is that I don't think about my equipment on the backhand, I just play. Everything is in order - serves, short game, cutting, starting attack, blocks, exchange of blows and finishing shots. This rubber does not have anything particularly outstanding such as speed or rotation, but it has an excellent balance of properties and the most important thing for me is reliability. I'm confident in G1 and confident in my game. At the same time for me, G1 is not so good on the backhand on blades with koto and external carbon reinforcement. Its surface seems insufficiently elastic.

 

[Zwill]

I also play with an internally reinforced blade and tend to use longer strokes. Right now I like G1 on the backhand. What's good about G1 is that I don't think about my equipment on the backhand, I just play. Everything is in order - serves, short game, cutting, starting attack, blocks, exchange of blows and finishing shots. This rubber does not have anything particularly outstanding such as speed or rotation, but it has an excellent balance of properties and the most important thing for me is reliability. I'm confident in G1 and confident in my game. At the same time for me, G1 is not so good on the backhand on blades with koto and external carbon reinforcement. Its surface seems insufficiently elastic.

The most important is to find a rubber and blade setup that helps you develop the feeling of the backhand.
Some rubbers help to achieve the feeling more than others, the rubber doesn't have to be "the best".
There isn't any point in buying D09c or D64 just because they are "the best" if the player plays like crap with them.

 

[Choosikick]

The most important is to find a rubber and blade setup that helps you develop the feeling of the backhand.
Some rubbers help to achieve the feeling more than others, the rubber doesn't have to be "the best".
There isn't any point in buying D09c or D64 just because they are "the best" if the player plays like crap with them.

Just to the point!
For me, the racket should be such that I am not afraid to hit hard and put my body weight into the shot. Excessively fast equipment hinders my movements, I have to constantly control the amplitude and force of the shot, as well as train a lot. At the same time, too slow inventory takes too much effort. I now need the balance that G1 gives me on backhand.
On the forehand, Loki N80 works only with a booster and vaseline oil. It's almost like the engine in my car, which doesn't run without gas and oil 😄

 

[lodro]

DHS Hurricane G is not an option lodro because im quite dissappointed by DHS blades and as ive talked about several blademakers about heterogenous blades, the different sides dont give you a complete different feeling. You always hit with your full blade and therefore you always have the other side too with which you are hitting - hope that is not too cryptic. Cant really explain it much better^^

Not too cryptic mate, I was just trying to be a bit cheeky when I recommended the DHS G blade.
It is true that one can hardly feel a difference between the 2 different sides. I got both the DHS and the Stuart version but when one can forget about the heterogenous rubbish both blades are good quality units. The DHS is relatively slow, 1250HZ, a good allround blade while the Stuart is fast at 1600Hz.

I hope you find your magic setup soon.