Why isn't table tennis equipment produced in the USA?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

There's too many industries in the US which are more profitable than table tennis, for e.g. tech, finance, weapons manufacturing, oil, etc... Why bother with a saturated low margin market?

then why bother playing table tennis as anything pays more.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Has anybody on this forum made a product that they sell world wide?
How many of you have created a company that has lasted 40+ years?


That would be a good question but everybody knows about table tennis.
Why don't the major TT companies make their products in the US? They can be made here and shipped elsewhere.
We make our product in the US and ship all over the world. Again, our product is relatively high tech and expensive.
Also, sometimes you need to create or find the market and sometimes the market finds your product and uses it for purposes the you never thought of when originally doing the design. The main thing is to stay in business long enough so you find the market or the market finds you.


Again, what experience do you have at making a product that gets sold world wide?
I/we have been very successful.
The average company on the SP 500 lasts 21 years have lasted 40+ years. We must know something about making a high tech product and marketing it around the world.


Obviously they haven't got around to marketing world wide. There will always be minor players. I wonder if the people that make Valor Table Tennis products in the US do it full time or is it just a passion. So there is some TT equipment made in the US. In any case it doesn't answer the original question about why TT equipment isn't made in the US on a large scale.


Wrong! It means those unknown TT companies in Taiwan don't market in the US.
We market around the world. The next international trade show will be the Hannover Messe.

HANNOVER MESSE 2024: Energizing a Sustainable Industry

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That is a huge trade show where people come from all over the world to see what is new or can be used in their business.
Before covid there were large trade shows in Shanghai too that we would show our products.
We can do that because our products are relatively expensive compared to TT products.
Again, it doesn't answer the OP's original question.
I don't know of any TT trade shows.


Because we have access to high tech things. Some countries like India have huge import duties even on high tech items. China is a little smarter. They have different rates on their tariffs depending on what the country needs.


A good example is the auto industry. Japanese automakers have plants in the US but then cars are expensive items and a lot of it is automated. Cars are also expensive to ship. So why don't Japanese, Chinese and even German companies make their TT equipment in the US. I think that answer has been given.

Don't you get it Blahness got it right. Why would anyone mess with TT products when they can make and sell high tech things?

I'm waiting for broken to invent a rubber that doesn't need boosting and can do all kind of alien technology and cheaper than Tenergy and making huge profits

 

[NDH]

Oh but popularity has everything to do with it. If no one’s knows what it is, why would anyone produce products for it, and how would you produce something you don’t know about? Making a product that makes profit requires understanding of the market you’re trying to enter.

Without getting into the other argument 😂, I just wanted to highlight one flaw in your observation.

If popularity is important, why are companies like Nike, Apple, Under Armour and all of the other huge popular "American" companies not producing everything in America?

Simple - Cost.

Having something "American made" commands a price premium (even when the quality is not necessarily any better, although I believe Americans do put a value on something being "American made").

That premium might work for certain things, but it absolutely won't work for the mass market stuff like sports clothing/equipment.

You could argue that a very niche "American-centric" hobby could potentially operate on this basis, selling quality "American made" products predominantly to an American audience.

But if the hobby is global, even if it's popular in America, you just won't see companies opting for an American made product at a huge premium, vs foreign made at a much lesser cost, when 99% of the people buying the product won't care if it's American made or not.

Obviously Table Tennis is very unpopular in America (in the grand scheme of things), and the cost of setting up factories and distribution chains when only a small percentage of your sales would be to Americans, is absolutely a non starter.

But even if popularity increased by 1000% - I still don't think you'll get companies moving manufacturing to the States.

The US market will always be a tiny percentage vs Europe and Asia, and I just don't see a world where manufacturing the equipment in America makes commercial sense at all.

At best, the distribution might get better if sales increase, and manufacturers put a little more focus on getting the products in users hands.

Just my opinion of course!

 

[brokenball]

So because Taiwan is good in high tech, all TT (or sports) companies should stop sports and go tech rather?

I didn't say that. Not everyone has technical skills. Those with technical skill will generally do better.

Popularity equates to market size. Just imagine if it is unpopular? that means there is zero market size to talk about.

No! So very wrong. In 2010 we started to market our product in China. Few in China knew about us. We ween't popular but the market was still big!
Now our controllers are used to make the lithium ion batteries. We didn't know that kind of market existed back when we started the the design of our controller. It is amazing the uses our customers have found for our controllers.

Taiwan has over 20000 kids playing table tennis in elementary school (as a school sport, we not even talking serious yet), of which around 5000 would show up at local tournaments - this ones would likely change rubbers more than once a year, while maybe 10% of them would be really serious.
That is a huge market size to get even say 5% market share and that is what some of these local brands are trying to get (they know they can't get the top levels, but they can get the entry levels)

What does this have to do with why TT products aren't made in the US?

But how about USA? do you even have 3000 kids if say you do and you become a top 3 brand and say you get 10%, that is still a very sad value.
.....

Yes, but you are assuming that products made in the US can't be sold abroad and that isn't so. We do it. Almost 50% of our sales are foreign.
What is wrong with you ? Can't you see that it is about the value of the product? The problem is that relatively cheap products can't be made profitably in the US.
This what the US exports. My company falls in the 3rd category.
Do you see any cheap products on that list?

Top US Exports 2023

United States top exports in 2023 plus a searchable list of America's most valuable export products & trade balances

www.worldstopexports.com

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I didn't say that. Not everyone has technical skills. Those with technical skill will generally do better.


No! So very wrong. In 2010 we started to market our product in China. Few in China knew about us. We ween't popular but the market was still big!
Now our controllers are used to make the lithium ion batteries. We didn't know that kind of market existed back when we started the the design of our controller. It is amazing the uses our customers have found for our controllers.


What does this have to do with why TT products aren't made in the US?


Yes, but you are assuming that products made in the US can't be sold abroad and that isn't so. We do it. Almost 50% of our sales are foreign.
What is wrong with you ? Can't you see that it is about the value of the product? The problem is that relatively cheap products can't be made profitably in the US.
This what the US exports. My company falls in the 3rd category.
Do you see any cheap products on that list?

Top US Exports 2023

United States top exports in 2023 plus a searchable list of America's most valuable export products & trade balances

www.worldstopexports.com

How many USA TT companies are there?
Killerspin? how many countries offer Killerspin for sale?
What is the market share of Killerspin in USA?

Normally you need to be strong in your own backyards before going out.
This is a consumer business . You are comparing B2B to a B2B2C or a B2C.
Consumer products require not just quality, but all the Ps and very important, a strong distrution.

What is wrong with me? I don't understand how you can compare your niche and expensive product to a commodity/consumer sport product

Is your product a retail product? consumers can order it over the internet?
If not, then you don't understand total market size and opportunity there of for a retail product.

Table tennis company are a brand.
These brands are a mere sales and marketing company and outsource blades (some do make they own) and rubbers (almost every European brand outsources them), not to mention shoes/clothes are all outsourced.
Majority of TT brand are not into manufacturing or production, maybe that is what makes Butterfly and DHS so strong... they make they own equipment.

Any correct comparison would be rather start a ESN competition company in USA and use USA brain to build a better product offering.
But thinking you can start a tt brand and sell overseas because USA has a very small market cap is really.... waiting for you to make it happen and show the world how to do business - and make that super duper booster free rubber

So you will have a Broken TT business, with made in Germany rubbers and made in Korea blades? or made in USA everything?
I agree with OP here, USA does have the technical ability to beat the Germans, but since TT is so weak - only now there is a small budget 250k for a league, just maybe, some one will come up with a rubber technology company and help everyone.
PS. I am in the view that if USA table tennis grows, the whole world will be better off (US knows how to market a sport and make it big)

 

[blahness]

then why bother playing table tennis as anything pays more.

Precisely, that's why there are scarcely any pro TT players around anywhere. It's really only a hobby for most.

 

[zeio]

There's too many industries in the US which are more profitable than table tennis, for e.g. tech, finance, weapons manufacturing, oil, etc... Why bother with a saturated low margin market?

Saturated, maybe. But low margin, definitely not.

Yonex is Butterfly of badminton. It has 10 times the annual sales of Butterfly but makes just as much in profit. Table tennis equipment CAN BE a highly profitable business.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Has anybody on this forum made a product that they sell world wide?
How many of you have created a company that has lasted 40+ years?


That would be a good question but everybody knows about table tennis.
Why don't the major TT companies make their products in the US? They can be made here and shipped elsewhere.
We make our product in the US and ship all over the world. Again, our product is relatively high tech and expensive.
Also, sometimes you need to create or find the market and sometimes the market finds your product and uses it for purposes the you never thought of when originally doing the design. The main thing is to stay in business long enough so you find the market or the market finds you.


Again, what experience do you have at making a product that gets sold world wide?
I/we have been very successful.
The average company on the SP 500 lasts 21 years have lasted 40+ years. We must know something about making a high tech product and marketing it around the world.


Obviously they haven't got around to marketing world wide. There will always be minor players. I wonder if the people that make Valor Table Tennis products in the US do it full time or is it just a passion. So there is some TT equipment made in the US. In any case it doesn't answer the original question about why TT equipment isn't made in the US on a large scale.


Wrong! It means those unknown TT companies in Taiwan don't market in the US.
We market around the world. The next international trade show will be the Hannover Messe.

HANNOVER MESSE 2024: Energizing a Sustainable Industry

At the world’s leading industrial trade fair, companies from the mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and digital industries as well as the energy sector will come together to present solutions for a high-performance, but also sustainable industry. More than 4,000 companies will be ...

www.hannovermesse.de

That is a huge trade show where people come from all over the world to see what is new or can be used in their business.
Before covid there were large trade shows in Shanghai too that we would show our products.
We can do that because our products are relatively expensive compared to TT products.
Again, it doesn't answer the OP's original question.
I don't know of any TT trade shows.


Because we have access to high tech things. Some countries like India have huge import duties even on high tech items. China is a little smarter. They have different rates on their tariffs depending on what the country needs.


A good example is the auto industry. Japanese automakers have plants in the US but then cars are expensive items and a lot of it is automated. Cars are also expensive to ship. So why don't Japanese, Chinese and even German companies make their TT equipment in the US. I think that answer has been given.

Don't you get it Blahness got it right. Why would anyone mess with TT products when they can make and sell high tech things?

Blah blah blah blah blah, you still can’t answer my question so why would I answer yours ? Everyone knows about table tennis? Hahaha, great joke.

Also, as an engineer you of all people should understand that when considering whether a variable affects the outcome or not, all other variables should be held the same and equal. But clearly you‘re too self absolved to notice that you're the one that's wrong. Meh, but who cares, this is the internet after all, you do you.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Without getting into the other argument 😂, I just wanted to highlight one flaw in your observation.

If popularity is important, why are companies like Nike, Apple, Under Armour and all of the other huge popular "American" companies not producing everything in America?

Simple - Cost.

Having something "American made" commands a price premium (even when the quality is not necessarily any better, although I believe Americans do put a value on something being "American made").

That premium might work for certain things, but it absolutely won't work for the mass market stuff like sports clothing/equipment.

You could argue that a very niche "American-centric" hobby could potentially operate on this basis, selling quality "American made" products predominantly to an American audience.

But if the hobby is global, even if it's popular in America, you just won't see companies opting for an American made product at a huge premium, vs foreign made at a much lesser cost, when 99% of the people buying the product won't care if it's American made or not.

Obviously Table Tennis is very unpopular in America (in the grand scheme of things), and the cost of setting up factories and distribution chains when only a small percentage of your sales would be to Americans, is absolutely a non starter.

But even if popularity increased by 1000% - I still don't think you'll get companies moving manufacturing to the States.

The US market will always be a tiny percentage vs Europe and Asia, and I just don't see a world where manufacturing the equipment in America makes commercial sense at all.

At best, the distribution might get better if sales increase, and manufacturers put a little more focus on getting the products in users hands.

Just my opinion of course!

Again, no one ever said popularity is the only reason, it’s just a factor to consider when making the final decision. Your argument is based on that popularity is the only reason that a company would build a production line. I didn’t say that if the interest increased by 10 times then companies would start manufacturing in the states, that would make companies more interested in marketing their products in the US though.

 

[brokenball]

I believe they need to get it into the education system and become a school sport in elementary school.

Where is the return on investment?
When you buy a paddle, rubber, balls, table or robot, it doesn't generate any money.
People buy our motion controllers to make money.

 

[NDH]

Again, no one ever said popularity is the only reason, it’s just a factor to consider when making the final decision. Your argument is based on that popularity is the only reason that a company would build a production line. I didn’t say that if the interest increased by 10 times then companies would start manufacturing in the states, that would make companies more interested in marketing their products in the US though.

I didn’t say you did, but you did say “Popularity has everything to do with it”, and my response was focussing solely on that one point, without giving exhaustive reasons on the other issues.

The rest of your comment seems to agree with what I said if I’m reading it right?

Interest will increase the desire for manufacturers to get products in people’s hands, via marketing and better distribution etc.

But that doesn’t really change the initial “why aren’t more products PRODUCED in the USA?”

I feel that question has been answered already, and I don’t believe popularity has anything to do with it.

But, again, happy to have a difference of opinion on it. I’m not trying to convince you my opinion is right 😊

I just wanted to give you the whole “Nike/Apple” analogy to think about.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Where is the return on investment?
When you buy a paddle, rubber, balls, table or robot, it doesn't generate any money.
People buy our motion controllers to make money.

B2b and b2c is very different hey, first need to get out of your b2b mode

When c goes from 1 to 1000, a lot can happen in a good way.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I didn’t say you did, but you did say “Popularity has everything to do with it”, and my response was focussing solely on that one point, without giving exhaustive reasons on the other issues.

The rest of your comment seems to agree with what I said if I’m reading it right?

Interest will increase the desire for manufacturers to get products in people’s hands, via marketing and better distribution etc.

But that doesn’t really change the initial “why aren’t more products PRODUCED in the USA?”

I feel that question has been answered already, and I don’t believe popularity has anything to do with it.

But, again, happy to have a difference of opinion on it. I’m not trying to convince you my opinion is right 😊

I just wanted to give you the whole “Nike/Apple” analogy to think about.

Well, table tennis as is a bit different thoufh

you dont see butterfly going to the cheapest market
So doesnt ESN
Japan and German isn’t your cheap labor/low cost places, but rather high quality.

 

[DukeGaGa]

I didn’t say you did, but you did say “Popularity has everything to do with it”, and my response was focussing solely on that one point, without giving exhaustive reasons on the other issues.

The rest of your comment seems to agree with what I said if I’m reading it right?

Interest will increase the desire for manufacturers to get products in people’s hands, via marketing and better distribution etc.

But that doesn’t really change the initial “why aren’t more products PRODUCED in the USA?”

I feel that question has been answered already, and I don’t believe popularity has anything to do with it.

But, again, happy to have a difference of opinion on it. I’m not trying to convince you my opinion is right 😊

I just wanted to give you the whole “Nike/Apple” analogy to think about.

But popularity has to do with it. Like I said when considering whether a variable affects the outcome, you need to keep all other variables the same and equal. So let’s say if the cost of production is the same, quality of the product is the same, does popularity affect the decision where to produce the products? The answer is obviously yes. Since more popularity means more sales, more sales means more deliveries, and delivery cost is based on distance and speed, closer to destination means playing less.

 

[brokenball]

B

B2b and b2c is very different hey, first need to get out of your b2b mode

When c goes from 1 to 1000, a lot can happen in a good way.

That makes now difference to where the products are made and why they aren't made in the US.
I can buy paddles and rubbers from tabletennis11. The Rakza I bought was not made in Estonia. Another 10K TT players in the US will not change the fact that they can still buy TT equipment from foreign sources cheaper.
I live about 20 miles from the Paddle Palace. I still buy my Rakza from tabletennis11, Estonia.
It is a global economy.

 

[zeio]

As to why the USA does not produce table tennis equipment, a better question may be "why does the USA produce pickleball equipment?"

If a table tennis blade is "low-cost stuff", then a pickleball paddle would be a piece of toy that can cost just as much.

Which Pickleball Paddles Are Made In The USA? | JustPaddles

Our Paddle Experts are often asked which paddles are made at home, right here in the USA. Here is a comprehensive list from some of the top brands in the game today!

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[Tony's Table Tennis]

B
That makes now difference to where the products are made and why they aren't made in the US.
I can buy paddles and rubbers from tabletennis11. The Rakza I bought was not made in Estonia. Another 10K TT players in the US will not change the fact that they can still buy TT equipment from foreign sources cheaper.
I live about 20 miles from the Paddle Palace. I still buy my Rakza from tabletennis11, Estonia.
It is a global economy.

Rakza is German product, not Estonian
And Swedish company (Sweden’s market size has strunken over the decades)

Take the 3 biggest rubber makers today
Butterfly
ESN
DHS

Guess what they have in common?
3 biggest table tennis market in the world

Why doesnt small markets in the world dominate on TT production and the investment of production? Maybe tech or in Taiwan’s part, it is only a component of a finished good, what finished good product has global dominance but comes from a small market it can’t even sustain or dominate itself?

Broken, even if you find one example, your odds are still outweighed.
If TT is way bigger in the USA, many goods could come from it, including broadcasting, professional leagues, TT brands. This should really be a no brainer to understand that when there is a bigger market, there is a bigger opportunity too.

Another angle to look at it, the current TT markets are all saturated. What if USA in the next few years get to 6500 schools and become the next major market?
All international brands will want to tap into it, so will current and maybe new USA brands. This would be good for everyone.

 

[brokenball]

Rakza is German product, not Estonian

I know that but I MADE IT CLEAR I BUY FROM TABLETENNIS11!

Broken, even if you find one example, your odds are still outweighed.
If TT is way bigger in the USA, many goods could come from it, including broadcasting, professional leagues, TT brands. This should really be a no brainer to understand that when there is a bigger market, there is a bigger opportunity too.

Why wouldn't I buy from tabletennis11? The Paddle Place is 20 miles away but I still buy more from tabletennis11. Were I buy from is dependent on price, not location. I don't see why you can't get that through your thick skull?

Another angle to look at it, the current TT markets are all saturated. What if USA in the next few years get to 6500 schools and become the next major market?

Would they buy from the Paddle Palace, tabletennis11, colestt or zeropong? I don't think any of these distrubutors seel a US made TT product.

All international brands will want to tap into it, so will current and maybe new USA brands. This would be good for everyone.

Who is going to pay for 6500 schools to have enough TT equipment for gym classes to practice table tennis?
This is much more important.

The guy in the video is clueless but he is trying to do something that could be useful. I can do the math that would just roll the ball to wherever you want without overshoot.
Yep, this is what hard headed engineering nerds do with TT balls.
My company has a 6DOF ( six degree of freedom ) version. It doesn't shake like what you see in the video.
The 6DOF of platforms we control are used in flight, car and in movie simulations like in "Fast and Furious 9" which was filmed near London.

Does anybody think they could sell US made TT equipment to India?
We can sell our controllers to India.

https://deltamotion.com/peter/Videos/Automate%20India%206DOF.mp4

I would hate to be in that booth and listen to Whipit for a few days.
I wrote the software that takes the x, y and z, yaw, pitch and roll into cylinder extensions.
This distributor in India uses our controller to retrofit old Moog 6DOF flight simulators.
The flight simulators down load an x, y ,z, yaw, pitch and roll every 40 milliseconds. 40 Hz.
So why can we sell to India these expensive controllers and not TT equipment?
Don't you think that it would be much easier for somebody in India to make TT equipment than our controller?
I can provide many examples from around the world.

Again, listen to what Der Echte, blahness and I have said. The rest of you are clueless.
I don't understand. None of you have any experience at international marketing.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I know that but I MADE IT CLEAR I BUY FROM TABLETENNIS11!


Why wouldn't I buy from tabletennis11? The Paddle Place is 20 miles away but I still buy more from tabletennis11. Were I buy from is dependent on price, not location. I don't see why you can't get that through your thick skull?


Would they buy from the Paddle Palace, tabletennis11, colestt or zeropong? I don't think any of these distrubutors seel a US made TT product.


Who is going to pay for 6500 schools to have enough TT equipment for gym classes to practice table tennis?
This is much more important.

The guy in the video is clueless but he is trying to do something that could be useful. I can do the math that would just roll the ball to wherever you want without overshoot.
Yep, this is what hard headed engineering nerds do with TT balls.
My company has a 6DOF ( six degree of freedom ) version. It doesn't shake like what you see in the video.
The 6DOF of platforms we control are used in flight, car and in movie simulations like in "Fast and Furious 9" which was filmed near London.

Does anybody think they could sell US made TT equipment to India?
We can sell our controllers to India.

https://deltamotion.com/peter/Videos/Automate%20India%206DOF.mp4

I would hate to be in that booth and listen to Whipit for a few days.
I wrote the software that takes the x, y and z, yaw, pitch and roll into cylinder extensions.
This distributor in India uses our controller to retrofit old Moog 6DOF flight simulators.
The flight simulators down load an x, y ,z, yaw, pitch and roll every 40 milliseconds. 40 Hz.
So why can we sell to India these expensive controllers and not TT equipment?
Don't you think that it would be much easier for somebody in India to make TT equipment than our controller?
I can provide many examples from around the world.

Again, listen to what Der Echte, blahness and I have said. The rest of you are clueless.
I don't understand. None of you have any experience at international marketing.

Why are you even on a table tennis forum?
Some times you can't understand things out side of your box, as your mind is way too narrow.
For example, look at who pays for table tennis in schools in Asia, you want to learn from the best or pretend it isn't possible?

And if PP market size is the same as TT11, guess what can happen? TT11 is successful because they have a huge European market to tap into. Put TT11 in USA, guess what will happen then?
Before TT11 won the world, they were pretty good in Europe already. Logistic, market size, market maturity all helped TT11, this is beyond TT11's own strengths.

Market size makes a huge different, that is why every company was eager to go into China when the border opened for westerners years ago and that is why there are so many millionaires in China inside such a short time. You take those business minds and put them in a small market.... many won't be as successful.
You take successful American businesses and put them in a small 1 million population country, many won't be successful too. This isn't too hard to understand. Market size (opportunity) does help a lot.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

Ich brauche kein amerikanisches Produkt! Es lebe ESN!

Ain't nid no Ehmerikan product. Long live ESN!