Disappointed with Stiga blades and rubbers

[UpSideDownCarl]

Calibra, Mantra (including new Mantra Pro) is made in Japan
DNA Pro and then the new DNA Platinum/DG etc, is made in Germany

I guess my real issue was with the idea that MZ (TensorBackhand) was implying that, since for him, the rubbers did not feel different, everyone else, including the OP should feel the same way as MZ.

I just think it is weird when people think or insist that everyone else has the same experience with equipment and disregard when they say, "I like this rubber but I don't like this other rubber." The response of, "those rubbers feel the same to me so you can't like one and dislike the other," just seems a bit off to me and shows a lack of understanding of something about the interaction between equipment and technique.

At one point, commenting about MZ, a ScrubPlayer, who is a pretty high level player, but also a problematic human being, fairly rudely said, "most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment." The statement is rude. But I kind of get why he was frustrated. It is not true. Anyone on this forum can comment on equipment. But it is worth understanding that what two different people feel about equipment MAY NOT BE THE SAME THING. It is not all about level. Some of it may be about how sensitive to sensations from the equipment a person is. Some of it may be slightly different ways of contacting the ball, depth of contact, bias of tangent on contact.....If you hear 10 people describe the same equipment you will hear 10 fairly different descriptions.

So when someone insists that their experience with equipment has to be what someone else feels, it just seems odd to me.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I guess my real issue was with the idea that MZ (TensorBackhand) was implying that, since for him, the rubbers did not feel different, everyone else, including the OP should feel the same way as MZ.

I just think it is weird when people think or insist that everyone else has the same experience with equipment and disregard when they say, "I like this rubber but I don't like this other rubber." The response of, "those rubbers feel the same to me so you can't like one and dislike the other," just seems a bit off to me and shows a lack of understanding of something about the interaction between equipment and technique.

At one point, commenting about MZ, a ScrubPlayer, who is a pretty high level player, but also a problematic human being, fairly rudely said, "most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment." The statement is rude. But I kind of get why he was frustrated. It is not true. Anyone on this forum can comment on equipment. But it is worth understanding that what two different people feel about equipment MAY NOT BE THE SAME THING. It is not all about level. Some of it may be about how sensitive to sensations from the equipment a person is. Some of it may be slightly different ways of contacting the ball, depth of contact, bias of tangent on contact.....If you hear 10 people describe the same equipment you will hear 10 fairly different descriptions.

So when someone insists that their experience with equipment has to be what someone else feels, it just seems odd to me.

I had to see "ignore" to see the whole context now.
Yeah, you can't generalize anything in table tennis
even the same 2 blade, could be totally different, yet alone such a wide variety of rubber from over 10 brands, with different specs from the ESN factory.

You are right, everyone's view on 1 equipment could be unique to another and that is why I also struggle to give reviews and to read reviews.
If Ma Long was to give reviews, then 99.9% of the rubbers out there are useless

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I had to see "ignore" to see the whole context now.
Yeah, you can't generalize anything in table tennis
even same the same 2 blade, could be totally different, yet alone such a wide variety of rubber from over 10 brands, with different specs from the ESN factory.

You are right, everyone's view on 1 equipment could be unique to another and that is why I also struggle to give reviews and to read reviews.
If Ma Long was to give reviews, then 99.9% of the rubbers out there are useless

Exactly.

I am fine with people writing reviews and reading reviews. I just should be noted that, when one person likes something, that does not mean another will.

But, for the same reason, I don't feel I can write reviews. A rubber that I feel I can generate a lot of spin with, I have heard others say the rubber gets almost no spin.

But it is interesting how sometimes people go with the assumption that, if this person likes MXP then he has to also like China DNA because for me, they feel the same. And yet, one person feels they are the same and another person likes one and actively dislikes the other.

The OP could come to think there is something wrong with him since he feels things differently than TensorBH when that is likely just that the two of them play differently.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I guess my real issue was with the idea that MZ (TensorBackhand) was implying that, since for him, the rubbers did not feel different, everyone else, including the OP should feel the same way as MZ.

I just think it is weird when people think or insist that everyone else has the same experience with equipment and disregard when they say, "I like this rubber but I don't like this other rubber." The response of, "those rubbers feel the same to me so you can't like one and dislike the other," just seems a bit off to me and shows a lack of understanding of something about the interaction between equipment and technique.

At one point, commenting about MZ, a ScrubPlayer, who is a pretty high level player, but also a problematic human being, fairly rudely said, "most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment." The statement is rude. But I kind of get why he was frustrated. It is not true. Anyone on this forum can comment on equipment. But it is worth understanding that what two different people feel about equipment MAY NOT BE THE SAME THING. It is not all about level. Some of it may be about how sensitive to sensations from the equipment a person is. Some of it may be slightly different ways of contacting the ball, depth of contact, bias of tangent on contact.....If you hear 10 people describe the same equipment you will hear 10 fairly different descriptions.

So when someone insists that their experience with equipment has to be what someone else feels, it just seems odd to me.

Well Carl, I don't disagree with you that different players could have different experiences with a rubber.

But OP is claiming that this DNA rubber is junk. It's possible that it doesn't suit his game. I think there are probably more likely explanations going on. That's why I said it's unlikely that changing to another ESN rubber will solve his problem.

1) He is comparing his DNA on a different blade to the rubber he said he liked. This seems to me more likely to explain a difference than that DNA is slow.
2) He is comparing his DNA to his memory of another rubber. The human memory is incredibly fallible, so it's very hard to compare a rubber only based on memory.

So, you're free to give your advice to OP and he can consider it for himself. But my advice based on my own personal experience, is that the problem probably lies elsewhere rather than the DNA rubber itself being bad. This is just MY opinion. But if he doesn't like DNA, he can simply just go back to the rubber he already knows he likes, and the DNA will not have its feelings hurt. But Stiga is a highly recommended maker of blades and rubbers with a long history and professional use. The title itself "disappointed with Stiga blades and rubbers" makes it seem like there is a big problem with Stiga's overall quality. So is that really the likely culprit? that Stiga just suddenly started to suck across all their blades?

 

[TensorBackhand]

"most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment."

By the way, are you saying that I posted this on TTD? Maybe I'm forgetting or maybe something got lost in context, but I really don't think that I said that because I really don't think that. Although I believe I have heard that statement thrown around from time to time on this forum.

I'm the guy asking everybody else about their experiences with rubbers and blades, and I consider all of it regardless of their level.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

"most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment."

By the way, are you saying that I posted this on TTD? Maybe I'm forgetting or maybe something got lost in context, but I really don't think that I said that because I really don't think that. Although I believe I have heard that statement thrown around from time to time on this forum.

I'm the guy asking everybody else about their experiences with rubbers and blades, and I consider all of it regardless of their level.

No. You did not say that. At one point ScrubPlayer who is a high level player but can be a really problematic person on the forum, said that. It was pointed at you. You may have missed it at the time when he said it. It was not only pointed at you. But it was directed in part at you.

But he says a lot of things like that and that are definitely out of line. He is something like 2100-2200 and he has basically said that anyone lower level than him sux. So the comment is in line with that kind of attitude.

And my point was that it is not fair for him to say that and that you have a right to your experiences with rubbers.

What is the reason the OP likes MXP and does not like Chinese Dragon DNA....I don't know, but if you are talking about the idea that the blade (Carbonado 145) and the rubber may not work well together, that is different than saying he should like both rubbers similarly.

It is hard to say why he does not like the combination. It could be the blade. It could be the rubber. It could be both. It could be what he was using before this that makes this setup not feel good to him. There are many variables. Simple answers to complicated questions just are not worthwhile here. It could even be the glue job. Who knows.

He could try the rubbers on a different blade and try different rubbers on the blade to see if he can isolate what he does not like. He may even not like either.

 

[DukeGaGa]

Seems like the discussion is not about what the OP asked anymore. 😂

Anyway, I don’t think it’s fair to say something one doesn’t like or not used to is worse, that’s purely subjective. And like others have mentioned, blades of the same model can feel very different, there are just too much variations in the material.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well Carl, I don't disagree with you that different players could have different experiences with a rubber.

But OP is claiming that this DNA rubber is junk. It's possible that it doesn't suit his game. I think there are probably more likely explanations going on. That's why I said it's unlikely that changing to another ESN rubber will solve his problem.

1) He is comparing his DNA on a different blade to the rubber he said he liked. This seems to me more likely to explain a difference than that DNA is slow.
2) He is comparing his DNA to his memory of another rubber. The human memory is incredibly fallible, so it's very hard to compare a rubber only based on memory.

So, you're free to give your advice to OP and he can consider it for himself. But my advice based on my own personal experience, is that the problem probably lies elsewhere rather than the DNA rubber itself being bad. This is just MY opinion. But if he doesn't like DNA, he can simply just go back to the rubber he already knows he likes, and the DNA will not have its feelings hurt. But Stiga is a highly recommended maker of blades and rubbers with a long history and professional use. The title itself "disappointed with Stiga blades and rubbers" makes it seem like there is a big problem with Stiga's overall quality. So is that really the likely culprit? that Stiga just suddenly started to suck across all their blades?

I think the first two parts of this are good. But once you start talking about Stiga equipment, I feel like you have missed some history. More than any other brand I can think of, Stiga has, over the past decade been accused of making crappy rubbers. You can agree or disagree. But I mentioned rubbers that got accused of being crappy: the Calibra series....I know plenty of people who said they totally sucked. I know a pretty high level player (2500) who loved Calibra Sound. But it worked for his game. He is the only player I can think of who I knew who liked Calibra rubbers.

Stiga blades for years were notorious for falling apart, cracking, DELAMINATING.

Same thing has happened to my son's Infinity. He's only 9 and although he's good for his age he hardly hits like Ovtcharov so it has to be a manufacturing fault. Half the top layer is flapping about. I contacted Stiga but they just told me to go back to where I'd bought it from even though under EU law they are responsible. I've done what they asked though so we'll see what happens next. They say the test of a company is not whether you ever have a problem but by how they respond when you do have a problem. Stiga passed the buck so let's see how well Dandoy do!

View attachment 7276

I have seen this with multiple people. I have a friend who had an Infinity, it delaminated, Stiga sent him another and the same thing happened.

I think, in recent years, Stiga has cleaned up their act. But 5-6 years ago, it was commonplace to see threads about Stiga equipment failures.

The image didn't show up in the quoted text, so I am adding it so people don't have to click on the link.

Part of the reason for the comments on Stiga Quality Control is that, it really could be that the OP got a bad blade, a bad rubber, or both. This has happened with all companies. I have not heard about this from Stiga for a while. But it is still possible.

And the ultimate question is, what would help the OP:

1) He should try the blade with different rubbers.
2) He should try the rubbers on a different blade.

Then he may be able to sort out if the blade or the rubbers are the issue or if both are the issue.

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Yes I have played with dhs hurricane 3 rubbers with ELP from Tibhar it feels good in terms of elasticity and speed. Yinhe big deeper is all right considering its performance and price ratio. I have tried Yasaka blade with these rubbers they feel good. So to make a lists of rubbers I have tried I feel butterfly T05 is the best for backhand but it is hard to find alternatives with a lower price that is why I have tried again with Stiga DNA rubbers

Have you tried the new rubbers on a different blade?

 

[TensorBackhand]

Right, so OP my guess is that youre jumping to a quick conclusion. Maybe the blade or rubber is slower than you expected, so maybe dont give up on the rubber just yet. Try the DNA rubber on a blade you already know you like, and see if you have some success with the DNA.

If not, just stick with the rubbers you know you already like.

Victor Moraga recently did a video about why he loves his current stiga dna and dragongrip setup. Maybe that might encourage you

 

[VictorMoraga]

Hi all,
I have got my Stiga cabonado 145 Chinese penhold blade with new STIGA CHINESE Dragon DNA rubbers forehand with DNA pro backhand I feel the combination’s performance is not as good as I am expected. I feel disappointed. Any new suggestion to change the blade or rubbers?

Hi Victor, from another Victor
I played with a lot and different Stiga blades for almost 20 years.
If I can tell you something is that the "Feeling" is yours, totally yours. I hate the propaganda like "This is the Best Rubber/Blade/Glue" bla bla bla. Finally you need something that fits your game, BUT you need a start point, right.

"For me", the blade is a critical part. I think your Stiga 145 is a good all around blade. All around is a good start point, to decide, if you need something softer, harder, etc.
I tried Carbonado 190, its cousin too. And then getting "crazy" I played some years with Carbonado 245 and 290 "Oh my God....." they're too Wild and stiff. But in the power department are Kings, but the suck in Control
Nowadays, I'm a player U2300 USATT and I understand how important is for my game a good balance in speed/control. That's why I decided to use Cybershape Carbon.

About rubbers, DNA DG is another "All Around" rubber with pro/cons, and after one and half years using it, I can say that I put my opponents in problems trying to handle my spin "From Serve or Top/Sidespin".
What I HATE from DNA Dragon Grip is that it's a "Susceptible" rubber to small weather changes "Moisture, Temperature, etc" I noticed that in some venues for training/tournaments it changes the feeling hardness a lot.
Sometimes I asked my wife, if She felt that my rubber was harder than other days XD.

The handle is personal, and Stiga normally makes thicker or bigger handle grip than other brands, maybe is good maybe bad. That's your choice. I tried a few years ago Butterfly Innerforce ZLC and the handle felt too tinny for me.
Keep that one in mind, when you choose a blade too.

In rubbers, if you hate what you have now. You could start with another all around and softer rubber like Yazaka Rakza 7 and then figure out if that's too soft or good for you.

Another point, is that every time I glue a paddle I weigh everything and I keep notes.
At some point, you will understand what's perfect weight for you too.
Sorry for the big reply I wanted to write more, but maybe too much for now.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think the first two parts of this are good. But once you start talking about Stiga equipment, I feel like you have missed some history. More than any other brand I can think of, Stiga has, over the past decade been accused of making crappy rubbers. You can agree or disagree. But I mentioned rubbers that got accused of being crappy: the Calibra series....I know plenty of people who said they totally sucked. I know a pretty high level player (2500) who loved Calibra Sound. But it worked for his game. He is the only player I can think of who I knew who liked Calibra rubbers.

Stiga blades for years were notorious for falling apart, cracking, DELAMINATING.



I have seen this with multiple people. I have a friend who had an Infinity, it delaminated, Stiga sent him another and the same thing happened.

I think, in recent years, Stiga has cleaned up their act. But 5-6 years ago, it was commonplace to see threads about Stiga equipment failures.

View attachment 24435

The image didn't show up in the quoted text, so I am adding it so people don't have to click on the link.

Part of the reason for the comments on Stiga Quality Control is that, it really could be that the OP got a bad blade, a bad rubber, or both. This has happened with all companies. I have not heard about this from Stiga for a while. But it is still possible.

And the ultimate question is, what would help the OP:

1) He should try the blade with different rubbers.
2) He should try the rubbers on a different blade.

Then he may be able to sort out if the blade or the rubbers are the issue or if both are the issue.

Calibra LT rubbers was better than Calibra
Then the Airoc series was a total nightmare.
I can't remember which sample Airoc I got, but there was powder substance on the top sheet and another one looks like it was so dry, the topsheet would crack when I glue/cut the rubber, and it did.
I was shocked with Made in Japan quality.
This was also the same time when Stiga lost rubber market share rapidly.
Mantra kindof pulled some back.

Blade de-laminating... I almost forgotten about it, it was so far back, but indeed, only a few years ago.
I took on Stiga in 2016 or 2017, by then the QC problem then was better. Now it more top ply splintering off with rubber removal.

I recall, my first thought (which I still think is valid today) is that water based glue went into those stiga blades and caused some issue with the ply bonding.
Earlier water based glues was obviously to blame too and i think with both improvements (including Stiga blade side), the problem is less common.

However, since then, the knowledge of - blade needs to be replaced often, is now backed the knowledge of moisture going into the blade and changing its characteristics.
Some may like this change, but many others don't.

So pros and cons on each front
I don't really say it, but image your blade changing every time you glue? lol

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Yep. Every time you glue with water based glue the water in the glue damages the wood and makes the blade softer and less crisp.

But that rash of blade delaminations that happened to Stiga blades for a number of years, I remember one person pulled the blade, brand new, out of the box and it was like that: he never got to glue rubbers on and it delaminated.

And, in the end, the OP can just accept that what he got does not suite him, or, he can rest the rubbers on a blade he knows he likes and he can test the blade with rubbers he knows he likes to sort out of it is the blade, the rubbers, or both that he does not like.

And for sure, it could be defective material from blade or rubbers. It could even be both.

Despite Stiga improving a lot of those quality control issues, many of their blades are still very delicate and easy to break or to destroy the topsheet (splintering) when removing rubbers.

 

[VictorMoraga]

Reading about the "Delamination" blades, let me contribute with my pictures back in 2015.
I had a Stiga Carbonado 145 and "boom" delamination with a small effort removing the rubber.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

So sad to see those pictures Victor,
Any ways, this is hopefully all in the past

For OP I did ask what other kinds of blade/rubbers he used, so we can have a better ideal of what combination he likes.
Have to say, the list so far is quite a different variety.
Maybe he doesn't like Hybrid FH,
maybe the 45 degree layout of the carbon fibre doesn't suite him
so many maybes

 

[brokenball]

At one point, commenting about MZ, a ScrubPlayer, who is a pretty high level player, but also a problematic human being, fairly rudely said, "most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment."

We aren't. Notice my lack of evaluations of rubber. I am not qualified to say that this rubber is a little more spinny or faster than another. So many are very similar. The COR only has a range of 0 to 1 and most are grouped between .6 and .6.
No one is a calibrated machine.

The statement is rude.

Yea, any disagreeing comment is rude.

But I kind of get why he was frustrated. It is not true. Anyone on this forum can comment on equipment.

Yes, but NO ONE IS A CALIBRATED MACHINE.
It all comes down to preference and that is an opinion, not a fact.

But it is worth understanding that what two different people feel about equipment MAY NOT BE THE SAME THING. It is not all about level.

Pathfinderpro made some videos where a group of higher rated players rated rubbers much differently than the weaker players. So yes, level makes a difference in how they FEEL about a rubber but the rubber doesn't change.
It is up to the player to adapt to the rubber.

Some of it may be about how sensitive to sensations from the equipment a person is.

I thought that Baal established years ago that what you feel doesn't matter to the ball. The ball is long gone by the time you feel it.

Some of it may be slightly different ways of contacting the ball, depth of contact, bias of tangent on contact.....If you hear 10 people describe the same equipment you will hear 10 fairly different descriptions.

Yes, but more importantly what the players try to do with the ball.

So when someone insists that their experience with equipment has to be what someone else feels, it just seems odd to me.

Yes! We are not calibrated machines. Everything is an opinion unless one makes the effort to measure the difference with a calibrated machine.

I think I have been very consistent in the past saying that is all comes down to a preference. If the pros were so damn good at evaluating rubbers and blades, why don't they all use the same rubber and blades?
I have been asking that question to TT forums for years. No one has an answer.
I know that USDC does like these kinds of questions.
It simply come down to a preference.

I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.

So when is this forum going to only accept facts, not opinions?
If not then challenging opinions is not rude. It is just one opinion vs another.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

We aren't. Notice my lack of evaluations of rubber. I am not qualified to say that this rubber is a little more spinny or faster than another. So many are very similar. The COR only has a range of 0 to 1 and most are grouped between .6 and .6.
No one is a calibrated machine.






Yea, any disagreeing comment is rude.


Yes, but NO ONE IS A CALIBRATED MACHINE.
It all comes down to preference and that is an opinion, not a fact.


Pathfinderpro made some videos where a group of higher rated players rated rubbers much differently than the weaker players. So yes, level makes a difference in how they FEEL about a rubber but the rubber doesn't change.
It is up to the player to adapt to the rubber.


I thought that Baal established years ago that what you feel doesn't matter to the ball. The ball is long gone by the time you feel it.



Yes, but more importantly what the players try to do with the ball.


Yes! We are not calibrated machines. Everything is an opinion unless one makes the effort to measure the difference with a calibrated machine.

I think I have been very consistent in the past saying that is all comes down to a preference. If the pros were so damn good at evaluating rubbers and blades, why don't they all use the same rubber and blades?
I have been asking that question to TT forums for years. No one has an answer.
I know that USDC does like these kinds of questions.
It simply come down to a preference.



So when is this forum going to only accept facts, not opinions?
If not then challenging opinions is not rude. It is just one opinion vs another.

It is good to see you still don't understand information in context.

Can you inform us how this would be useful to the OP? If he was disappointed with how his new setup plays, was he wrong to be disappointed? Should he like rubbers he does not like? Should he like a blade he does not like? Or did you just not understand what you read?

 

[NextLevel]

I guess my real issue was with the idea that MZ (TensorBackhand) was implying that, since for him, the rubbers did not feel different, everyone else, including the OP should feel the same way as MZ.

I just think it is weird when people think or insist that everyone else has the same experience with equipment and disregard when they say, "I like this rubber but I don't like this other rubber." The response of, "those rubbers feel the same to me so you can't like one and dislike the other," just seems a bit off to me and shows a lack of understanding of something about the interaction between equipment and technique.

At one point, commenting about MZ, a ScrubPlayer, who is a pretty high level player, but also a problematic human being, fairly rudely said, "most of you guys on this forum are not high enough level to be commenting on equipment." The statement is rude. But I kind of get why he was frustrated. It is not true. Anyone on this forum can comment on equipment. But it is worth understanding that what two different people feel about equipment MAY NOT BE THE SAME THING. It is not all about level. Some of it may be about how sensitive to sensations from the equipment a person is. Some of it may be slightly different ways of contacting the ball, depth of contact, bias of tangent on contact.....If you hear 10 people describe the same equipment you will hear 10 fairly different descriptions.

So when someone insists that their experience with equipment has to be what someone else feels, it just seems odd to me.

People should pound the like button on this post. And then they should watch this video for a perfect example of what Carl says. It is funny how at least 3 of the players are well over USATT 2200 (they are some of the top players in Estonia) and yet they all don't rank the rubbers the same.

 

[NextLevel]

Reading about the "Delamination" blades, let me contribute with my pictures back in 2015.
I had a Stiga Carbonado 145 and "boom" delamination with a small effort removing the rubber.

Stiga has this crap with their blades. And I bought more than my fair share. And got a Carbonado 145 that was slower than a Carbonado 45. And let's not talk about the durability. Hopefully they are doing better now with some of their blades.

 

[Zwill]

Do shops or Stiga offer warranty for such delamination? I can't say I have read many shops or manufacturers brag about their warranty policy.

Brands are really good at false advertisement promising unbelievable spin and speed. Unique pimple geometry, more natural rubber for longevity, developed with pro players etc etc all sounds like horsepoop, and then you try the rubber all you feel nothing particularly new or unique. Or worst case it's not even any good.

I tried DNA Pro S on Carbonado 145 before and it was terrible. It was not spinny at all, and awww it felt like cancer. Thankfully one of my teammate bit the bullet by buying them. I think Stiga rubbers are a bit overpriced to begin with.