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says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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I guess that's why I need to gradually build towards random training as Yecats suggested, instead of diving into it head first

What you need to understand is that there are soooooo many ways to make a drill standardized enough to make it about stroke technique and form while still having some kind of random element to it.

When Edmund was helping me fix my forehand, he was training with Damien Provost who is really a master of wrinkling in a random element into something simple enough for you to keep your form.

Here are some of the ways of training that Edmund used to keep a random element in the training while getting me to continue working on forearm snap.

1) When he returned my shots he would make some softer, some stronger, some slower, some faster, some with more topspin, some with less topspin, some a little shorter so I needed to adjust in a little, some a little deeper so I needed to adjust out just a little, and he would move the ball around within 4-10 inch landing area so I had to adjust a little laterally to each ball, but not much.

2) As I got better the area in which he would move me around got bigger so I had to footwork a little more.

3) As I got better he started mixing the spin and adding dead blocks and backspin blocks and I had to see these and adjust. There really is a point where adding different versions of junk balls in will really be valuable for your development. Edmond used to also try to catch the net to force me to adjust to the net ball. I still can hear his voice saying: "get it, get it!" rooting for me and laughing at the same time. :)

4) He also would work with me from the BH side where the moving was a little random and I always had a choice to turn to my FH from there or to keep on the BH. And he would move me around but watch that he would move me around an amount where I could keep form. If I started losing form he would instantly, in the drill just make it so I could read what was coming better and make it less random till I regained form.

Those were examples of how Edmund would make me continually be working on some form of the random element while still working on the form and technique of the stroke.

Now, here are some drills that are part way random, that are also useful for a different reason.

1) 2 BH, 2 to FH but the FH could be mid-line or wide and you have to watch for which one it will be.

2) a) 2 or 3 BH and then 1 FH middle. b) Same drill with FH wide.

3) Player 1: Serves backspin; Player: 2 pushes long to FH: option 1: play out point (completely random), option two, go down the line looping, option 3 go cross court looping. Once the point is over or the looping causes a miss, go back to the beginning.

4) #3 with push long to BH corner. a) open with FH, b) open with BH, then same options as #3.

5) Player 1: Serve Backspin; Player 2 pushes long anywhere, you adjust to the 3rd ball and attack deciding if you should use FH or BH on opening depending on your choice and the ball. (like I am fond of opening with my FH from deep on my BH side as long as I can get the angle to the wide BH.)

6) a) Player 1: Short serve, player 2 short push to FH, and play out point. Player 1: Short serve, Player: 2 short push to BH, and play out point. c) Player 1: Short serve, player 2 short push to anywhere, and play out point.

7) two point drill but the distance, the pace of the ball and the kind of ball, topspin, junk, backspin changes a little. As you get better it can change more. As the random element increases, space between the balls in the two point ball drill can vary.

8) Ball to BH and then to FH. Ball can go from BH to FH after 1, 2, 3 or 4 BHs but you have to watch.

9) two point drill where backspin gets slipped in randomly.

With a drill that is completely random, I have found that it is useful to slow things down and slowly speed them up. But there are really sooooooooooo many ways to add some form of random element to any drill.

The image in the block vs random video from Train Ugly of the guys shooting the basketball and just continually shooting from slightly different areas is a good one. It is like that. If the random element is one you can adjust two put one that keeps you needing to have your mind active, you will still be able to continue developing the new form of the FH with the forearm in it.
 
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@UpSideDownCarl

It's not anything compared to what you described, but sometimes during a forehand hit drill with my friend that I am teaching, where we are doing slow counterhits/drives, I will throw in more topspin at the same pace and to the same placement.

At first it went completely through him and under his bat, but now he has noticed it and reacts to it better. So in a way it's a form of random training.
 
says Spin and more spin.
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@UpSideDownCarl

It's not anything compared to what you described, but sometimes during a forehand hit drill with my friend that I am teaching, where we are doing slow counterhits/drives, I will throw in more topspin at the same pace and to the same placement.

At first it went completely through him and under his bat, but now he has noticed it and reacts to it better. So in a way it's a form of random training.

Here is the thing and why it is always good to hit with people of any level to some extent. If you hit with someone lower level than you, the ball they give you will be inconsistent. When I hit with people lower level than me my ball is very consistent. But then if I am hitting with someone higher level than me, enough higher where there spin gives me problems, then my ball is inconsistent even though, for the most part, one of my strengths is how consistent my ball is.

But, no matter what, when you are hitting with a human, there is some level of randomness. It just needs to be enough to challenge you to some extent. So, yeah, what you are doing when you are adding spin or taking off spin is giving them something different to read.
 
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Had my first test run with the new short pips TSP Spectol Red on the robot.

It's too early to call but I like what I saw. Coming from 802-40 on a 2.0 30 deg air super soft sponge, the Spectol Red performed exactly how I thought it would. Very similar but with just a touch more speed. Essentially exactly what I was looking for.

In comparing the pips to 802-40, they're the same shape. Conical

2016070509093925777.jpg

However they're definitely smaller. I'm assuming that Spectol plays more like a traditional SP where as 802-40 is supposed to be a spiny pip. Honestly in my brief hitting, I didn't notice a dramatic spin decrease. Simply seemed the same just a pinch faster and possibly flatter.

Will have a more in depth review after I hit with my buddy over lunch today & Sunday when we have club.

The sponge on the back said BZ 44 which I assume means 44 degs. Everything I read told me it was suppose to be 40 deg on the Spectol Red and 44 on the Spectol Blue. But here we are.

The packaging says "Dynamic Tension" meaning it's suppose to be tuned. (...at least I think. Is there a difference between "tuned" and putting something on the sponge stretched? "dynamic tension") I can't help but wonder how this would compare with a normal, non-tuned 44 deg sponge. Would there be any difference in speed? IDK.

Keep in mind I'm coming from a 30 deg non-tuned sponge to this 44 deg tuned sponge and the speed difference was faster but it wasn't like night & day the difference. Just makes me wonder if some of this "tuned" stuff in regards to short pips is just marketing.
 
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Today I played a whole 5 minutes or so.

However my topspins were better than ever, immediately from the start.

Doing shadows in the mirror, I have noticed that my arm doesn't look and feel so disconnected from my hip turn. It's like instead of just hitting into the ball more if I turn my hips, I can add spin instead. I haven't felt this before today.

Swinging a loop motion and turning my body felt awkward before, but now it feels better. Counterhits with proper body rotation feel completely fine and "in sync" no matter how low or high my body is. On loops, it got progressively more awkward the lower I got. Not anymore.


The only things I've really done is make my loop swing straighter and more relaxed, and I've tried to stop lifting my shoulder as much as possible. I had a really bad habit of lifting it up wwaaayyyyy too far. Now I try to avoid it. It feels a bit weird, but it's also more comfortable.

The player I was playing played really soft and gave me no pressure, but I'm not sure if I wouldn't just go to my old habits against anything better. I will just keep drilling it until it sticks. Carl's stories of changing his forehand come to mind.
 
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The player I was playing played really soft and gave me no pressure, but I'm not sure if I wouldn't just go to my old habits against anything better.


Playing what do you mean by soft? When I think of people who play soft, I think of myself. Where someone loops at me, then backs up slightly for their follow up, and my soft blocking causes the loop to not come as far as they anticipated. People tend to NOT like this when they play me.

Watch this guy in jeans. Everything he does is VERRRY soft. (unless it's a smash on a high ball) Point starting at 4:34 Very frustrating when you have to stay close to the table to loop over and over. But then again, a big part of that happening is because I'm also a soft player. Just not as soft as the opponent.

 
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Playing what do you mean by soft? When I think of people who play soft, I think of myself. Where someone loops at me, then backs up slightly for their follow up, and my soft blocking causes the loop to not come as far as they anticipated. People tend to NOT like this when they play me.

Watch this guy in jeans. Everything he does is VERRRY soft. (unless it's a smash on a high ball) Point starting at 4:34 Very frustrating when you have to stay close to the table to loop over and over. But then again, a big part of that happening is because I'm also a soft player. Just not as soft as the opponent.


He plays the kind of low-level short game with pushes and blocks. Not a proper soft game that's a bitch to deal with. Any topspin will send the ball long enough to easily loop close to the table.

Before I could topspin at all, I had some problems against him. Now it's a breeze because he is completely predictable.


What he has going for him is that he does keep the ball low.
 
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@arch

how old are you right now? I feel sad for you, having such a passion for the game but unable to play stronger players.
Nearing 19.


I guess it's a bit of a shame, but I've played my fair share of people better than me. Just not often enough.

If I had proper competition every day, playing against orthodox players, who knows where I'd be now. Maybe I'd look a bit like Boogar!
 
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Nearing 19.


I guess it's a bit of a shame, but I've played my fair share of people better than me. Just not often enough.

If I had proper competition every day, playing against orthodox players, who knows where I'd be now. Maybe I'd look a bit like Boogar!

orthodox play is overrated. just go through the ball in a way that you're comfortable.
 
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orthodox play is overrated. just go through the ball in a way that you're comfortable.
You still need to be able to read the deceptive strokes of well-trained orthodox players. Unorthodox strokes are a bit different, and the quality is different.
 
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You still need to be able to read the deceptive strokes of well-trained orthodox players. Unorthodox strokes are a bit different, and the quality is different.

false.

Deceptive strokes will come from unorthodox styles just as much as a generic style. It just depends on the player's level.
 
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false.

Deceptive strokes will come from unorthodox styles just as much as a generic style. It just depends on the player's level.
Yeah, but I'm more-so saying that a beginner of 2-some years playing a clean, orthodox style is gonna have better, more deceptive and consistent shots than a similar beginner just winging it for 2-some years.

With unorthodox, I guess in my context I more so mean "not based on solid theory". The kind of style that has huge gaps. Not the kind of unorthodox style you see at the intermediate levels and higher.
 
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Yeah, but I'm more-so saying that a beginner of 2-some years playing a clean, orthodox style is gonna have better, more deceptive and consistent shots than a similar beginner just winging it for 2-some years.

With unorthodox, I guess in my context I more so mean "not based on solid theory". The kind of style that has huge gaps. Not the kind of unorthodox style you see at the intermediate levels and higher.

a 2 year of clean play beginner won't have anything deceptive. At least not on purpose. Unless all they practiced was how to be deceptive instead of consistent.

The only benefit to having an "orthodox" style, is that the limit of your playing level will be higher. You won't get to a certain level quicker than an unorthodox style, you'll just be allowed to reach greater heights.
 
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a 2 year of clean play beginner won't have anything deceptive. At least not on purpose. Unless all they practiced was how to be deceptive instead of consistent.

The only benefit to having an "orthodox" style, is that the limit of your playing level will be higher. You won't get to a certain level quicker than an unorthodox style, you'll just be allowed to reach greater heights.

At the end of the day, it is all about getting that ball on the other side of the table more times than your opponent. Doesn't matter how you do it! :)
 
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Hello DTT CCers,

Hope all is well with everyone here.

ugh on me, been busy with work past week ... last i was on was page 228 or so...

thought it would be a slow day today, so i can catch up on missing a week or so, 148+ replies, another 12 pages to this thread LOL

boss' wife drove into city with their son, car breaks down, boss just left to join them. flying solo today :(

i'll catch up hopefully next week... looks like 2 JeffM vids i have to watch, at least 1 Shuki vid

and i'm sure way more to catch up on the 12 pages or so of posts

to any TTDer who celebrate the Lunar New Year -- Happy New Year!

back to work :(

Very truly yours in TT and CCing,

~osph
 
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