Question on stepping around

[lasta]

That was the argument that carl was making. He said that during a backhand stroke, your arm only moves a short distance(assuming that you directly facing the table or your shoulder is parallel to the table). However, I replied to this issue with the question of why not stand sideways(stepping around) such that your right shoulder is facing the table or even slightly showing your back so that your upper arm have more room to accelerate when swinging outward. Plus, now you can use your waist more by turning and use weight transfer which are not possible when standing parallel to the table with a short stroke.

You can do that, but you'll leave your forehand side wide open. It will be very difficult to get ready for a forehand position if your opponent manages to return your shot.

 

[nivekkan]

You can do that, but you'll leave your forehand side wide open. It will be very difficult to get ready for a forehand position if your opponent manages to return your shot.

But doesn't it go both ways? You can say the same for a step around on the backhand side with forehand attack too. If you watch Ma Lin plays, he did it a lot. When his opponent blocked it back with a wide angle to his forehand side, he usually lost the point. So it is like a win or nothing kind of shot to some extend because sometimes he could still save the point if he was fast enough to do a hooking forehand loop.

 

[zeio]

...However, I replied to this issue with the question of why not stand sideways(stepping around) such that your right shoulder is facing the table or even slightly showing your back so that your upper arm have more room to accelerate when swinging outward. Plus, now you can use your waist more by turning and use weight transfer which are not possible when standing parallel to the table with a short stroke.

You won't have the time to do all that unless you're far enough from the table, but either way, your percentage will go down significantly because it's hard to time the shot. You will understand once you try it firsthand. Try it out and report your findings.

 

[nivekkan]

You won't have the time to do all that unless you're far enough from the table, but either way, your percentage will go down significantly because it's hard to time the shot. You will understand once you try it firsthand. Try it out and report your findings.

I'm not skillful enough to be used as a test subject XDD. I still have to work on the short stroke so for me, the % is going to go down for sure but I'm just wondering if it is plausible stroke with training. But apparently not because the pros rarely use it but I just think it is an interesting topic that I have been thinking for a while.

 

[Baal]

The problem is in the OP's initial assumption, that BH and FH are equal. In terms of power and spin you can generate WHILE MOVING LATERALLY TO GET TO THE BALL, good players will always be stronger on the FH side because the force generating muscles for that shot are much stronger. By contrast when moving forward for a flick, the biomechanics favor the BH. That is why good players play the way they do. By the way, people need to be a little careful training a BH to get more power (as exemplified by Dima Ovtcharov). Certainly train it but if you do an hour straight of that you are asking for tendonitis.

Actually, Dima is a great case study about this. He will certainly open with his freakishly powerful BH. But he never STEPS AROUND to hit a BH when he can RIP a FH instead..

 

[zeio]

DO would've hit a BH instead if he had to rip a FH. That's how the term "step-around" is defined in his dictionary.

 

[nivekkan]

The problem is in the OP's initial assumption, that BH and FH are equal.

I suggest you to read again. I said that forehand in inherently strong in the FIRST LINE.

By the way, people need to be a little careful training a BH to get more power (as exemplified by Dima Ovtcharov). Certainly train it but if you do an hour straight of that you are asking for tendonitis.

Definitly agree!

Actually, Dima is a great case study about this. He will certainly open with his freakishly powerful BH. But he never STEPS AROUND to hit a BH when he can RIP a FH instead..

So at the end of the day the reason people don't do a step around for a backhand if they can choose between backhand and forehand is power. OK I get that.
But what if your only option is to do a short stroke BH or a long stroke BH because you are not fast enough to make your whole body to the left side while it is still possible to turn your body sideways for a more powerful backhand? This situation happen often but people choose to use the short stroke.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I actually think that there are a lot of fundamental questions vivekkan needs understand for why what he is asking would not be effective or efficient. It can be done. But it would not be so effective or efficient for most.

It is not just that the reset in TT is so fast that you sort of need to stay in a neutral stance to be ready for the FH. I would say that is true. But this would still pan out in other sports. Like tennis. I will get to other sports fairly soon. But for now I will stick with TT.

If you stand at your BH corner and check the range of where you could reach to without moving to hit the ball with your FH, you could still cover 1/2-3/4 of the table (depending on the length of the player's arm). If you stand at the FH side of the table to see how much of the table you could cover with the BH, it would be maybe 1/16-1/8 of the table; maybe 1/3 for someone with very long arms.

This is why you will also see a player caught out on the FH side switch hands and do a FH with his opposite hand. Standing deep on the FH side, for a ball he could not reach with his BH, he can still reach with his non-dominant hand's FH.

But for reach, you won't see a player switch hands to hit a BH on a ball on the FH side that he cannot reach. Nobody would do that because it would not increase the reach.

In tennis, there was a time when most players used a one handed BH. These days, most top players use a two handed BH for the extra power you get from using both hands. Why don't they do that on FH? Yep. Because they don't need to. They still have the power with one hand and they also have the extra reach. It is because of body mechanics.

You also see players run around their BH in tennis. Even though the BH can be pretty strong, I doubt people run around their FH much in tennis either.

In boxing, virtually all punches are the equivalent of different angels on FH. Why do boxers not use punches with a backhand motion almost ever. They could. There are boxers who have used a BH type motion for certain things. In martial arts too, there are BH type strikes. But they are not used for power. They are used when the angle gives an advantage; like close in while turned a little the wrong way.

Between the reach and the power generated, FH is just the more natural thing.

But I say, go ahead and explore trying to play BH the way you are describing and tell us your experience. Maybe even film it for us to see your success.

 

[zeio]

...But what if your only option is to do a short stroke BH or a long stroke BH because you are not fast enough to make your whole body to the left side while it is still possible to turn your body sideways for a more powerful backhand? This situation happen often but people choose to use the short stroke.

You'll likely miss the shot.

In the point below, Gauzy returned XX's FH loop back to his crossover/pocket, which is an indecision point, often known in Chinese as 反手偏中路, where it goes toward your BH but it feels like you could make a FH instead.

The last point of G1 was similar for Gauzy, where he chose to return it with a swiping motion, known in Chinese as 抹, which kind of forced a return to his FH on the next shot.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

You'll likely miss the shot.

In the point below, Gauzy returned XX's FH loop back to his crossover/pocket, which is an indecision point, often known in Chinese as 反手偏中路, where it goes toward your BH but it feels like you could make a FH instead.

It is interesting, in this match Zeio posted, if you watch past the point Zeio intended and you watch the long distance rallies, almost all the shots are FHs. Look for the ones that are BHs and compare them in spin, speed, power and arc to the FHs.

This whole match is actually incredible for watching why the FH is dominant. There are a few places where they go BH to BH. See if you can find those brief exchanges and see how much slower the ball is going while they are going BH to BH.

 

[nivekkan]

I didn't say backhand is more powerful

Between the reach and the power generated, FH is just the more natural thing.

I totally agree. I don't think there is a problem there. When ever it there is a choice between FH and BH the natural choice would be FH. I said that too.

In boxing, virtually all punches are the equivalent of different angels on FH. Why do boxers not use punches with a backhand motion almost ever. They could. There are boxers who have used a BH type motion for certain things. In martial arts too, there are BH type strikes. But they are not used for power. They are used when the angle gives an advantage.

If you have read the #1 post(my original post) of this thead. You will see I agree with every single point of what you said. I didn't say backhand is more powerful, in terms of force. I gave a situation where there is a tactical advantage with the backhand.

I say, go ahead and explore trying to play BH the way you are describing and tell us your experience. Maybe even film it for us to see your success.

I want to try. But whether if I'm capable enough to create a chance for myself to make such a shot is another story. And if you have read my post which is a reply to Zeio, I don't think you would have told me to film it.

I'm not skillful enough to be used as a test subject XDD. I still have to work on the short stroke so for me, the % is going to go down for sure but I'm just wondering if it is plausible stroke with training. But apparently not because the pros rarely use it but I just think it is an interesting topic that I have been thinking for a while.

BTW. "your success" is not a particularly nice world to use. I just think is a really interesting discussion but I'm sure you don't really mean it.

 

[nivekkan]

You'll likely miss the shot.

In the point below, Gauzy returned XX's FH loop back to his crossover/pocket, which is an indecision point, often known in Chinese as 反手偏中路, where it goes toward your BH but it feels like you could make a FH instead.

The last point of G1 was similar for Gauzy, where he chose to return it with a swiping motion, known in Chinese as 抹, which kind of forced a return to his FH on the next shot.

I think it is a really great answer to the question. I'll try to experiment with it whenever I have the chance to.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

BTW. "your success" is not a particularly nice world to use. I just think is a really interesting discussion but I'm sure you don't really mean it.

Everyone is good enough to film and show footage. All that can happen from having footage is you see and learn from what you see.

I used to be a pro skater and we would film all the time. At first it is hard to see because you thought you were doing something different than what you see. But over time what you do and what you think you are doing match up and that really helps you improve. It would be the same for TT.

And you took what I said about you filming and showing us your success in that venture the wrong way. I was not meaning it how you felt I did.

I can work on it and it is totally possible for it to go well for you. Even if you find it will not be something useful in match play. That does not mean it won't be a success to work on it. It would still actually help your BH.

And you could always look at players like Kreanga. He successfully used his BH almost like a second FH:

Not many can pull that off in match play. But that does not mean it won't be useful or successful to work on and try it. No matter what, it would make your skill with BH better. So I do think we would see your success. Not your failure.

 

[nivekkan]

Everyone is good enough to film and show footage. All that can happen from having footage is you see and learn from what you see.

I'll try next time I play

I used to be a pro skater and we would film all the time.

Didn't you teach yoga?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I'll try next time I play


Didn't you teach yoga?

I do teach yoga. But I used to skate ramps and was in the circus 1996-1998.

The doing part is not so different. The teaching part is different. And I definitely like the teaching part.

Those photos are all old though. Back when I was a little younger. [emoji2]

 

[Lula]

I think i have asked this before. I Do not know. Have you translated more videos? Especially about footwork. Regarding the strokes i think We europeans are around equal, But footwork, balance and weigth transfer the chinese know alot.

I find it interesting that he Did not show cross step with backhand. The old chinese coach in my club teach my students that. Almost never seen anyone actually Do it so Maybe it is not needed. I think overall the cross step is not used so much anymore because people play more backhand.

 

[Baal]

If BH is ONLY option, well, then you hit a BH. But good players would rarely step around to hit a BH when a FH is right there.

 

[ttmonster]

because what you are suggesting is not practical in a game position .. there is literally one person in the history of table tennis who has been able to do this ( Mr. Kreanga ) and he is on record saying that even with his flapjack forehand he trusts his forehand more to finish points and thinks its more powerful ...

since we have seen this a lot here for years ... table tennis is a practical sport and not an academic subject where you can argue theoretically , human body and mind has limitations in practical game situations so lets sacrifice the ego and talk about stuff that is feasible to do... you'll learn more from it

That was the argument that carl was making. He said that during a backhand stroke, your arm only moves a short distance(assuming that you directly facing the table or your shoulder is parallel to the table). However, I replied to this issue with the question of why not stand sideways(stepping around) such that your right shoulder is facing the table or even slightly showing your back so that your upper arm have more room to accelerate when swinging outward. Plus, now you can use your waist more by turning and use weight transfer which are not possible when standing parallel to the table with a short stroke.

 

[ttmonster]

the only time I have seen the coaches talk about backhand cross step is when you are out of position on a forehand to forehand topspin rally and need to get back to the table ... you can see lots of examples of that in the recent match Kanak Jha played with Patrick Francizka in TTBL ..

I think i have asked this before. I Do not know. Have you translated more videos? Especially about footwork. Regarding the strokes i think We europeans are around equal, But footwork, balance and weigth transfer the chinese know alot.

I find it interesting that he Did not show cross step with backhand. The old chinese coach in my club teach my students that. Almost never seen anyone actually Do it so Maybe it is not needed. I think overall the cross step is not used so much anymore because people play more backhand.

 

[NextLevel]

Nivekkan is the typical philosopher playing table tennis. All about imagination, less about practice.