Blade recommendation for off- to low off carbon blades in penhold

[Michael Zhuang]

Michael, check this.

Let's keep it dry 1 last time.

Yup, I read that. So ayous from the side has little diagonal lines. Great website by the way, lot's of cool information.

Now I'm curious about the innerforce design. Does the innerforce 2nd layer look the same as in this photo?

 

[latej]

Michael Zhuang;369258Yup, I read that. So ayous from the side has little diagonal lines. Great website by the way, lot's of cool information.

Now I'm curious about the innerforce design. Does the innerforce 2nd layer look the same as in this photo?

I don't have Butterfly Innerforce, or Ovtcharov, or Harimoto, so can't check. But I am convinced it is. What do we bet???

See ttgearlab here and here.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

I wonder if I made a mistake getting the Lemuria outer ZLC, because it uses Limba medial layer instead of Ayous. Maybe the blade will be stiffer than the original was meant to be.

 

[OldUser]

Actually hipnotic is an ace at making slow innerforce ALC blades, He's made one for me that was way too slow at 1190 Hz, the only issue is that he does not really master that parameter yet to get consistent products, he seems to be sometimes in the "trial and error" scheme, sometimes he claims it comes from the ALC itself being too thin and soft, sometimes he claims it's the Ayous core he has made too thin, it's.... bizarre to say the least.

But he knows his stuff about blades composition for sure, he just don't know how to make the same composition always consistent over 12 of the same one with less marging of error.

 

[ricospin]

Actually hipnotic is an ace at making slow innerforce ALC blades, He's made one for me that was way too slow at 1190 Hz, the only issue is that he does not really master that parameter yet to get consistent products, he seems to be sometimes in the "trial and error" scheme, sometimes he claims it comes from the ALC itself being too thin and soft, sometimes he claims it's the Ayous core he has made too thin, it's.... bizarre to say the least.

But he knows his stuff about blades composition for sure, he just don't know how to make the same composition always consistent over 12 of the same one with less marging of error.

I don't want to speak for the man- but it's a handmade product. There's bound to be some sort of variability when it comes to this type of things.


I believe him if he says that when he made X thing it was too thin or the ALC was too soft or whatever. I feel like those are things that he might not have control over.

 

[VictorMoraga]

I think is a pretty interesting topic and I'm very surprised with the knowledge about technical stuff in the forum too.When I was a kid, my former coach told me to keep my focus developing my game 🏓, working in the fundamentals, and then, look a proper blade, rubbers and glue that fit my game.I'm not saying you're wrong. But it would be interesting to know the experience from different players about the correct timing to renew or change material.Every time I made a progress "Step Up" I keep in mind the material I use, and know their strengths/limitations.If you know your current blade/rubbers very well, maybe a good timing to improve your game instead make a new change in equipment. Just an opinion 🤷My best wishes in the decision you take 👊 🙌

 

[Haito]

I think is a pretty interesting topic and I'm very surprised with the knowledge about technical stuff in the forum too.When I was a kid, my former coach told me to keep my focus developing my game 🏓, working in the fundamentals, and then, look a proper blade, rubbers and glue that fit my game.I'm not saying you're wrong. But it would be interesting to know the experience from different players about the correct timing to renew or change material.Every time I made a progress "Step Up" I keep in mind the material I use, and know their strengths/limitations.If you know your current blade/rubbers very well, maybe a good timing to improve your game instead make a new change in equipment. Just an opinion 🤷My best wishes in the decision you take 👊 🙌

Welp I had opposite situation. I was using composite blades for 1.5years and now I switched to thin 7 plies. It is much much easier to stabilise strokes, because it is easier to keep the ball one the table. Dima Ovtcharov said in one of his videos (it might have been no.1 review with Dan) that in crucial moments he had issues with outer blades and inner carbon blades gave him more confidence. I have same feeling about my situation but kicking it a notch lower (to no composite at all).

 

[ricospin]

Welp I had opposite situation. I was using composite blades for 1.5years and now I switched to thin 7 plies. It is much much easier to stabilise strokes, because it is easier to keep the ball one the table. Dima Ovtcharov said in one of his videos (it might have been no.1 review with Dan) that in crucial moments he had issues with outer blades and inner carbon blades gave him more confidence. I have same feeling about my situation but kicking it a notch lower (to no composite at all).

This has crossed my mind multiple times.

If Dima felt that outer is too fast and went to inner...

And I felt that inner felt too fast and went back to all wood...

And since I'm not a pro it makes sense to take that step back from inner... however, I still really like how carbon feels- and so i'm trying to figure out a middle ground... or perhaps I will never get the middle ground that I'm looking for because it doesn't exist.

 

[Haito]

This has crossed my mind multiple times.

If Dima felt that outer is too fast and went to inner...

And I felt that inner felt too fast and went back to all wood...

And since I'm not a pro it makes sense to take that step back from inner... however, I still really like how carbon feels- and so i'm trying to figure out a middle ground... or perhaps I will never get the middle ground that I'm looking for because it doesn't exist.

Same boat. VPS V is already fast. Highly recommend trying a thin 7 ply. Good middle ground.

Edit. It took me a while to appreciate it after stepping down from carbon. ~2 months 12hrs a week.

 

[ricospin]

Same boat. VPS V is already fast. Highly recommend trying a thin 7 ply. Good middle ground.

Edit. It took me a while to appreciate it after stepping down from carbon. ~2 months 12hrs a week.

It's not speed I'm looking for, it's more of that feeling that carbon gives you that you can spin with minimal effort. Essentially, carbon does the hard work for you. On the contrary, whenever I go from my fb2x to my infinity I always appreciated the increased dwell and how that could give massive spin potential as well as safety.

What 7 ply's do you recommend? I was going to buy a used nit acoustic- but I'd be happy to see what you recommend. (DHS PG.9 looks attractive to me- or maybe fang bo all wood)

 

[Haito]

It's not speed I'm looking for, it's more of that feeling that carbon gives you that you can spin with minimal effort. Essentially, carbon does the hard work for you. On the contrary, whenever I go from my fb2x to my infinity I always appreciated the increased dwell and how that could give massive spin potential as well as safety.

What 7 ply's do you recommend? I was going to buy a used nit acoustic- but I'd be happy to see what you recommend. (DHS PG.9 looks attractive to me- or maybe fang bo all wood)

Swat or Tibhar Curious. Something 5.9-6mm range. What other all-wood blades have you used? I have a hypothesis that you might think carbon is doing work for you because you are already using very fast 5 ply that is not so flexy and hard (6.1mm).

 

[Haito]

There is so many of them you are probably find one in any brand. Nittaku Acoustic is also dope. I also have Dyjas ultra power but it feels very hollow. 20-30 people in my club use Tibhar Curious, so I can recommend that blindly. Swat is also top selling blade in Japan for nth year in the row. I find both choices very very safe.

 

[ricospin]

Swat or Tibhar Curious. Something 5.9-6mm range. What other all-wood blades have you used? I have a hypothesis that you might think carbon is doing work for you because you are already using very fast 5 ply that is not so flexy and hard (6.1mm).

I have used yinhe 896, YEO, and now Infinity.

 

[SDC]

Actually hipnotic is an ace at making slow innerforce ALC blades, He's made one for me that was way too slow at 1190 Hz, the only issue is that he does not really master that parameter yet to get consistent products, he seems to be sometimes in the "trial and error" scheme, sometimes he claims it comes from the ALC itself being too thin and soft, sometimes he claims it's the Ayous core he has made too thin, it's.... bizarre to say the least.

But he knows his stuff about blades composition for sure, he just don't know how to make the same composition always consistent over 12 of the same one with less marging of error.

You are judging my ability with your sample of one blade. I never claimed the ALC was too thin, ALC is always the same thickness, I don't even now where you are getting that. On your blade I didn't claim the core was too thin, I said it was too heavy which limited the amount of resin in the fiber, so that I could achieve the weight and balance you wanted. I gave you the explanation, but you still don't seem to understand it. If you want me to give you some equations that explain why a heavy core results in a lower frequency just let me know. You seem to think you know more than me, and completely disregarded my initial advice, so I had to work around that. Did I make a mistake? I did, and I admitted that, that's why I offered to rebuild the blade. But my mistake was only misjudging the kind of speed you were after.

Of course I can be consistent, I often replicate blades that were made months ago. I make 2 or 3 blades at a time all within 1g difference. The only thing that constraints my consistence is the wood availability. I need to have a similar stock, otherwise the result will be different. But that only matters in a few situations, I make custom blades, every blade I make is different. I don't think people realize how hard it is to get all these parameters right, weight, thickness, balance, head shape, handle shape and size and frequency.

 

[latej]

I wonder if I made a mistake getting the Lemuria outer ZLC, because it uses Limba medial layer instead of Ayous. Maybe the blade will be stiffer than the original was meant to be.

Don't worry about the medial ply, it is likely ayous. You'll be able to see that with magnifier glass. That you bought the blade is a mistake nevertheless , I bet it will feel too hard and stiff even with ayous. Like the XVT ZL Koto I have - it's relatively hard and stiff, produces this strong "plonk" sound. A friend in club calls it "kopyto" (a horse feet). See - I also make those mistakes I know you like trying stuff, but eventually you'll shift your focus...

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Don't worry about the medial ply, it is likely ayous. You'll be able to see that with magnifier glass. That you bought the blade is a mistake nevertheless , I bet it will feel too hard and stiff even with ayous. Like the XVT ZL Koto I have - it's relatively hard and stiff, produces this strong "plonk" sound. A friend in club calls it "kopyto" (a horse feet). See - I also make those mistakes I know you like trying stuff, but eventually you'll shift your focus...

The XVT ZL Koto I believe uses Koto for the medial ply, so I'm not surprised that it feels extra stiff. If you saw my comments about the Stuor ZLC, it doesn't feel too stiff at all. Exactly the opposite, the first time I tried it it felt slightly too soft to me.

Why do you think the medial ply is likely ayous? The seller specifically listed the medial layer as limba. In any case, I will try to find a magnifying glass to see if I can find those ayous diagonal lines.

 

[latej]

The XVT ZL Koto I believe uses Koto for the medial ply, so I'm not surprised that it feels extra stiff. If you saw my comments about the Stuor ZLC, it doesn't feel too stiff at all. Exactly the opposite, the first time I tried it it felt slightly too soft to me.

You're right. The XVT ZL Koto has koto outer, and the outer ply, when looked from the bottom of the handle, looks like the medial ply, when looked from the side of the handle, and it looks different than the ayous on the medial ply on Viscaria, Yinhe V16 and Vodak Horejsi ALC. So it is very likely koto too. Well, my bad, I should have researched more before I bought it 3 years ago.

Why do you think the medial ply is likely ayous? The seller specifically listed the medial layer as limba. In any case, I will try to find a magnifying glass to see if I can find those ayous diagonal lines.

I don't have a specific reason. It just would be my bet. I think some manufacturers tend to be foggy about the composition, and perhaps limba sounds nicer than ayous, a bit like grip-oriented sounds like a notch of an upgrade from spin-oriented . But anyway, you'll find the truth when it arrives.

 

[Michael Zhuang]

Well I tried to use a magnifying glass to look at the layers in my blades, but I still can't really make out anything. It ends up hurting my eyes to look so closely.

I can't really see clearly one way or another what type of wood it is.

 

[latej]

Well I tried to use a magnifying glass to look at the layers in my blades, but I still can't really make out anything. It ends up hurting my eyes to look so closely.

I can't really see clearly one way or another what type of wood it is.

Even my old handy can zoom in...

 

[rng]

Let's keep it dry 1 last time.
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