Are you allowed to refuse to play against someone ?

[SenseiJM]

Hi everyone !
I recently played against a player with a weird rubber. I encountered this rubber in the Belgian interclub championship.
He was playing with a very old Anti, but with the ITTF logo only. Nothing else on the rubber.
He told me he had this rubber since he bought the blade, back in ye olden days, and nobody ever told him that he couldn't play with it competitively.
My question is the following : Is the rubber still legal ? If not, am I allowed to refuse to play against him with this racket ? What are the consequences for him and his team ? (the last question is more for my fellow Belgians if they happen to stumble on my post)
Thanks in advance to everyone !

 

[Dominikk85]

If it is a friendly match of course you can refuse but in a league match you would need to complain to the umpire and he decides whether the rubber is legal or not.

If it is a low league with no umpire there might be some kind of ruling who functions as the umpire like for example the team captain of the home team.

If you just refuse to play without an umpire declaring the bat illegal I think the game will just be ruled as a loss for you and your team.

You might be able to file a protest at the league but then the burden of proof that his rubber was illegal will be on you and you will lilely lose the protest.

 

[Zwill]

There are some old rubbers that are still legal but don't have a number on them. Take Sriver for example.
You would need to know the brand and model name and check it in the LARC.

Since you mentioned the rubber is an antispin rubber I guess the decades didn't alter its performance by much so if it is listed in the LARC I guess it would be legal to use.

 

[Der_Echte]

What are the applicable rules? Pretty much the ITTF laws of Table Tennis? Will depend on what rules apply to your Belgian Interclub.

I would not want to comment until I know what rules are being used.

 

[SenseiJM]

The rules that are used are the ITTF's for everything equipment, how a match plays out, etc.
It's just for the scoring system that the Belgian Federation decides.

 

[James Z]

I recently played against a player with a weird rubber.

I know exactly how you feel
I only use "normal" rubbers 🙄

 

[SenseiJM]

I know exactly how you feel
I only use "normal" rubbers 🙄

This wasn't my point.
The rulebook specifies that a rubber must have a brand, a "model name" AND the ITTF logo + it's code if available on the closest side to the handle.
In this case, there's just the ITTF logo. That's why the rubber is weird. I have nothing against antis and other rubbers, on the contrary.

 

[Dominikk85]

Is there maybe a governing body of the league that you can contact? Maybe they have some kind of office that you can call or email.

 

[James Z]

This wasn't my point.
The rulebook specifies that a rubber must have a brand, a "model name" AND the ITTF logo + it's code if available on the closest side to the handle.
In this case, there's just the ITTF logo. That's why the rubber is weird. I have nothing against antis and other rubbers, on the contrary.

No but when you look at your post in the context of the fact that you want to refuse to play him, you cannot blame me for thinking what I am thinking (but I apologize if is just a cultural communication and or language translation disconnect)
Nevertheless referring to an opponents' rubber as weird or junk etc. is disrespectful.
But of course though I am sure there are lots of rubbers that are "illegally" speed-glued or "illegally" boosted at the level of your play (inter-club), I do not see iTTF doing anything about it. though they claim it is unhealthy (for all players NOT just the pros......even that only spot testing or even more funny voluntary testing) .
But my biggest problem with your post is this > You seem to be lot more obsessed about your opponent's rubber than you should be at your level (non-pro). Personally, I do not care about what my opponent uses but I only have a huge problem when someone is more obsessed or paranoid about what I am using.
It seems to me that in most cases a player does not care about what the opponent uses as long as they can win easily. But as soon as they sense a threat, such as they may lose, equipment and rules suddenly become a HUGE problem. I can understand this somewhat at the professional levels but it is ridiculous at lower levels. Of course you can go off on me claiming that rules are rules & they apply to all levels etc but let us be resaonable here.
It seems a day never passes by when I have NOT heard a conversation about someone claiming that their opponent won ONE & ONLY because of their (weird) (long) pips & they have no skills or their playing style is so ugly and must be banned
There are 100s of factors involved here & I can write a book here on this issue as I have done n past 25 years & no one would read but I will stop for now

 

[KM1976]

Until there is any mortal danger involved by playing against an opponent with dead rubbers, I will play.

 

[James Z]

I think there's two potential possibilities here that could justify a refusal to play against this player:

1. The rubber-type is no longer authorised by ITTF and is therefore not listed on the LARC

2. The rubber is still authorised by ITTF and appears on the LARC, but because it is so old it has deteriorated to the point where it no longer has the same playing characteristics that a new version of the rubber would have. I believe this will be a potential breach of rule 2.4.7.1 from the ITTF rule-book.

I agree. From the day a player starts playing tabletennis, the primary focus should be on obsessing about what equipment their opponents use, as shown in above 2 examples rather than worrying about their own rubbers & techniques

 

[lodro]

I agree. From the day a player starts playing tabletennis, the primary focus should be on obsessing about what equipment their opponents use, as shown in above 2 examples rather than worrying about their own rubbers & techniques

nee, that sounds like a lot of bollocks to me.
fI you go into the garage or in the backyard for a bit of fun that to me is playing ping pong and you can make your own rules.
When however one joins a club that is through the local - national association affiliated with ITTF then we play Table Tennis
and all the rules should be followed.
The basic reason for this is to create a level playing condition.
Otherwise if you attack me with a stick what good will it do you against my Gatling gun 😁

 

[James Z]

That's funny...I never said it should be their "primary focus"...but I'm used to you twisting my words!

I must admit, I do find it hilarious that when its rule breaking that doesn't fit your agenda (i.e. boosting) then you shout about at every opportunity - even when it isn't directly relevant to the issue being discussed (such as in this very thread!), but then when its a different type of rule-breaking that is being called-out, your advice to people is to basically mind their own business and focus on their own equipment and technique!

You are referring to my asking Linda Bergstrom & others to use High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips at US Open.
I explained that many times there with examples but you prefer as usual to go in circles.

Example 1:- A friend of mine wanted to use Feint Long Classic at a tournament in 2000 in Maryland and asked permission from control desk. They refused & he did not play at all. It would have been cheating ONLY if he had played without opponents knowing he was using an unapproved rubber

Example 2 :- The same year 2000 or an year later (I am not sure), Marty Reisman (top seed at 1948 WTTC if I am not mistaken) DEMANDED that he MUST be allowed to use his hardbat racket with blue rubber both sides in a regular USATT 5 star event (US Open Teams at Baltimore).. I am not talking about hardbat only events. USATT not only submitted to his bullying on the spot & allowed him to use his racket. but also changed the rules to allow hardbat rackets with any color or same color both sides to be allowed in all regular USATT events, but this is in clear violation of ITTF rules & regulations.

As shown above, individual national affilaites have full discretion as above to allow exceptions. Of course I am sure most booster cheats would feel that ONLY they are entitled (& privileged) to using whatever boosters they use totally untested but pips players should be severely subjected to visual racket inspection. But it is a different issue

So in the same manner I was only asking Linda Bergstrom and others to ask for permission beforehand to use High Aspect Ratio Super Long Pips. But you continue to equate it to grossly illegal (I mean illegal not unapproved) acts like speed gluing & boosting.

.

 

[James Z]

But then in this thread where there is another potential instance of cheating - the use of unauthorised rubbers - your response is to basically tell the victim of the cheating to stop obsessing about other peoples equipment!

I already explained this. I said I somewhat understand this at the pro & higher levels of the sport.
But playing the "victim" card at the lower levels of the sport is truly hilarious.

 

[Zwill]

[bcolor=#ffffff]Example 1:- A friend of mine wanted to use Feint Long Classic at a tournament in 2000 in Maryland and [/bcolor]asked permission from control desk[bcolor=#ffffff]. They refused & [/bcolor]he did not play at all.[bcolor=#ffffff] It would have been cheating ONLY if he had played without opponents knowing he was using an unapproved rubber[/bcolor]

This is assuming he would disclose to all opponents he plays against that said rubber is not approved by ITTF. Since just telling the control desk and getting permission does not mean the opponents know about it.

I don't think boosting and using illegal rubbers are remotely in the same ballpark. I don't want some companies to start developing/making rubbers with 4mm thick sponges and some of my opponents using those in competitions. In my view this would be a more comparable to high AR LP.

Boosters are used to make the sport more athletic, fast, controlled and fun. Hence why companies use them right in the factory. (also for cost saving, easier to boost than to develop) There are players who use long pimples and boost their rubber. Granted maybe not their pimples but their other side.
Dodgy long pimples are designed to disturb, destroy, and confuse the game. There is a very big difference in goal for the two "illegalities" if we can call boosting illegal since it is known pros do it and they are not banned from official games.

That being said on a hobby level I would love to try any kind of non-approved rubber with insane sponge, AR etc, just for fun.

 

[James Z]

I don't think boosting and using illegal rubbers are remotely in the same ballpark.

You have it backwards though you are right when you say they are not in the same ballpark.
It is boosting that is "illegal" according to ITTF. Using rubbers not on ITTF LARC is not "illegal" but is just using unapproved rubber
Obviously you don't even know the REAL reason why ITTF tried (but is failing miserably) speed-gluing & boosting not acceptable.

 

[James Z]

So, you are not opposed to boosting at the lower levels, then? If this is the case then it appears that what you’re saying is that the rules only matter at the professional level of the sport, not at the lower levels. Is that your position?

I have also expalained this 100s of times before & many times to you but you want togo in circles again.
Do you even understand why ITTF had tried to make (but failing miserably) speed-gluing & boosting not acceptable ??

From 20 years ago , I have been demanding that ITTF conduct inspections at all levels and not just at higher levels. I have lieterally 100s of posts in various forums & webpages to prove this . You just twist my words & I do not know how you arrived at this crazy conclusion .

What I have always mainitained for years & years is that chemical inspection must be performed at all levels of the sport. & what I have a big problem is ITTF using just visual inspection to harass pips players with zero chemical inspection at lower levels..

 

[James Z]

So, why is the former type of rule breaking unacceptable at all levels, but the latter is only unacceptable at the higher levels of the sport?

That is because you do not understand why ONLY speed-gluing & boosting is "illegal"
When I say "illegal",I mean against common laws of a jurisdiction such as a city or state or country. I am not talking about simple use of LARC "unauthorized" rubbers.

Also I am not asking anyoneto break the rules. I am only saying that I won't make an international case of it if my opponent uses a rubber not on approved list
& I am not going to obsess over it liekyou do.

Of course now you are going to start over claiming that I am bribing Linda Begrstrom and others to break the rules though I have explained several times with examples as to why I am not & what I am asking tyem to do

Oh well

 

[James Z]

. Common law hasn’t got anything to do with it;

Again, you do not understand why speed-gluing & boosting is not only just unapproved" in ITTF but also "illegal" under common law

 

[Der_Echte]

Without seeing the actual rules the country uses, the right thing to do is to inform the player, and the umpire if present, that you need to immediate see the REFEREE to adjudicate the situation.

If referee does not agree with you, then play or forfeit.