pips or no pips?

[sebas-aguirre]

I switched to short pips bh a couple of weeks ago.
I had played short pips in the bh before with great effectiveness.
after using them a while I found out game with sp is all about angles.
if you want to be offensive you have to have the right angle for smash.
you also need the right angle when hitting always.
if you let the ball fall below net you have no options.
with inverted I would just let the ball fall and hit a backhand loop at some time.
with sp where you hit the ball is very important.
and where is generally close to the table.

so what I found out is when playing serious matches sp is actually good for me.
helps me use my feet (I have a tendency to grow roots in the ground like a tree), engage my fh loop (most reliable shot), remain close to table (I tend to go far).

the problem is when playing more relaxed matches in club sp become a pain.
you can't go back and start counterlooping or making longer shots, creating a more fun rally.
you have to move when you don't want to so you can engage your fh. sometimes I just won't move and I end up hitting all bh.
so playing fun matches becomes more boring with sp.

so it all comes down to:
pips
or
inverted
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to give you an idea my style in tournaments is close to this guy (just saw this video couple of days ago, I would be the guy with the darker toned skin)

 

[phillypong]

let's just get rid of the stupid pips, it brings nothing interesting to our sport, just throw away the pips and start playing real table tennis with inverted rubbers (how many pips players in top 100 ?)

 

[YosuaYosan]

let's just get rid of the stupid pips, it brings nothing interesting to our sport, just throw away the pips and start playing real table tennis with inverted rubbers (how many pips players in top 100 ?)

Doesn't help Sir Aguire make up his mind about choosing pips or not.
Definitely not the best answer here in this forum.

 

[YosuaYosan]

If you don't mind Sir, you could always ask OOAKForum for better answers regarding these kinds of questions.

I guarantee the answer will have much better quality in an environment where pips (a part of our sport) is welcome.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

let's just get rid of the stupid pips, it brings nothing interesting to our sport, just throw away the pips and start playing real table tennis with inverted rubbers (how many pips players in top 100 ?)

this is a very common thought.
however the amount of players with pips is not that low and you can see they have good results even at that level.
tang peng, tan ruiwu, he zhi wen, wang zeng yi.
in lower levels where I play (and presumably where you play too) short pips are much more effective if used right.
players have enough problems playing against inverted, imagine if you introduce another variable in the game.

 

[Der_Echte]

SPs are nice and cheap, so why not slap 'em on and see what havoc you can wreck upon Ur mates!

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I think the issue is about learning technique or playing with the technique you have. Both are useful tools. If you are able to do all the basic strokes at a decent level and your backhand loop is solid, there is nothing wrong with using short pips.

It sounds like you are saying that your footwork gets lazy and you don't move as much. I think that doing footwork drill training and serve and receive training that forces you to move in a way you would need to in a game situation would help with the footwork. And other than that, pips are a personal choice.

I like playing with smooth, because I like using full strokes and I like moving and I like having to read the spin and respond correctly. I like playing against pips because it forces me to think more. But I don't like playing with them because I like to loop too much.

In the end it comes down whether you want to be attacking with loop strokes primarily, or if you want to flat hit and loop with short pips. Yes, you can loop with short pips. It also comes down to how you want to address improving your footwork. It sounds like using smooth has allowed you to develop some bad habits with not moving your feet. You could use the pips to force yourself to change this, or you could work on the footwork as much as possible while continuing to use smooth.

Both are good options though. In the end it all comes down to personal choice.

 

[jmillsy2]

I think you should go for the pips

On a side note, there is no way pops will be banned. There would be no Chen weixing joo se hyuk, yuto muramatsu et al. The outcry would be enormous and I think it would make the sport very one dimesional. I play with pips myself, and the amount of peoPle I get complaint at me is unreal. It is very annoyIng, my philosophy tends to be if you don't like pips, try and learn to play them, and then we'll see how good you really are.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

I think the issue is about learning technique or playing with the technique you have. Both are useful tools. If you are able to do all the basic strokes at a decent level and your backhand loop is solid, there is nothing wrong with using short pips.

It sounds like you are saying that your footwork gets lazy and you don't move as much. I think that doing footwork drill training and serve and receive training that forces you to move in a way you would need to in a game situation would help with the footwork. And other than that, pips are a personal choice.

I like playing with smooth, because I like using full strokes and I like moving and I like having to read the spin and respond correctly. I like playing against pips because it forces me to think more. But I don't like playing with them because I like to loop too much.

In the end it comes down whether you want to be attacking with loop strokes primarily, or if you want to flat hit and loop with short pips. Yes, you can loop with short pips. It also comes down to how you want to address improving your footwork. It sounds like using smooth has allowed you to develop some bad habits with not moving your feet. You could use the pips to force yourself to change this, or you could work on the footwork as much as possible while continuing to use smooth.

Both are good options though. In the end it all comes down to personal choice.

I learned bh looping, also been doing it for a while now.
but fh looping is always more effective and I feel more confident with it.
also it's a more aggressive shot generally.
I don't play against malong or ovtcharov so a good and offensive fh loop is 40% of the point won.

the difference is big in terms of moving.
with inverted bh you move but not that much.
if ball goes to bh you just loop with bh.
with pips if ball goes to bh you rotate and play fh again.
with bh pips every time you want to do an "attack" or offensive shot you need to use your fh.
so legs are used at least 50% more.
another good example of this style is liu song. he uses long pips but its the same concept.
these guys simply play all fh except when they can't move fast enough and then they use bh.
as for looping with sp it's pointless. if you are gonna loop just go with inverted.
pips is to hit flat and force the other guy to make the error.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I know a guy who uses short pips on his backhand and he smacks the ball and he loops with his backhand. It gives another dimension to his game and he is USATT 2300+ rated. So he is no joke.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I also agree with Super Chopper, if a player does not like playing against pips, they just need to practice against them and get used to them. The first part of this is that they are not going to go away. They just aren't. The second part of this is that pips add an element of challenge that, from the perspective of playing against pips, makes a player have to work and think while playing a pips player. I think this can only help players improve.

From the perspective of whether sebas-aguirre should use smooth or pips, again, it is a personal choice. You need different technique for smooth and for pips. There is nothing wrong with learning something new.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

I also agree with Super Chopper, if a player does not like playing against pips, they just need to practice against them and get used to them. The first part of this is that they are not going to go away. They just aren't. The second part of this is that pips add an element of challenge that, from the perspective of playing against pips, makes a player have to work and think while playing a pips player. I think this can only help players improve.

From the perspective of whether sebas-aguirre should use smooth or pips, again, it is a personal choice. You need different technique for smooth and for pips. There is nothing wrong with learning something new.

well yes of course it's a personal choice and I am the one who will decide in the end.
but I'm just asking what you guys think.
don't worry it's not like your opinion will seal my fate lol.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

well yes of course it's a personal choice and I am the one who will decide in the end.
but I'm just asking what you guys think.
don't worry it's not like your opinion will seal my fate lol.

I am biased. I think that learning the full technique and footwork with smooth rubber, is worth it. Working on the footwork so that you are in position to take the ball on the rise when you want, or to let it drop when that is more effective, or to switch to the forehand and cover the whole table with the forehand, the way the Chinese shakehand players try to, is very worth working on. I think the technique for smooth can be challenging. It is true that you have to work hard on technique with short pips as well, so I am not trying to say anything against that equipment. I just think that the technique you need to develop for upping your game with smooth rubbers, is what I like best.

But I am not concerned with winning when I play. I am always focused on improving my technique. My experience with that is that, when I play people who used to beat me, as my technique improves, that changes. 70% of my practice time, or more is spent doing drills, footwork drills, serve and receive drills. Lots of different exercises to target weaknesses in my game and get them to improve. When I do play matches, I notice the improvements. But I am playing to enjoy playing. And I like doing all those drills more than I like playing matches. I even do a lot of shadow drills in front of a mirror to get the technique of good stokes and good footwork into my muscle memory. There are many ways of changing habits when you are stuck in an area, on and off the table.

So, my opinion would be, stick with smooth and work on the techniques that are holding you back. But, I will still also say, there is nothing wrong with putting short pips on your backhand. For me, Ma Long does not, Zhang Jike does not, Timo Boll Does not, Michael Maze does not, J. O. Waldner did not, Jorgen Persson did not. In short, the players I like and try to emulate used smooth. That, and my style of play, which is offensive with an emphasis on consistency, works best with smooth rubber.

What should you do? I dunno.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

I am biased. I think that learning the full technique and footwork with smooth rubber, is worth it. Working on the footwork so that you are in position to take the ball on the rise when you want, or to let it drop when that is more effective, or to switch to the forehand and cover the whole table with the forehand, the way the Chinese shakehand players try to, is very worth working on. I think the technique for smooth can be challenging. It is true that you have to work hard on technique with short pips as well, so I am not trying to say anything against that equipment. I just think that the technique you need to develop for upping your game with smooth rubbers, is what I like best.

But I am not concerned with winning when I play. I am always focused on improving my technique. My experience with that is that, when I play people who used to beat me, as my technique improves, that changes. 70% of my practice time, or more is spent doing drills, footwork drills, serve and receive drills. Lots of different exercises to target weaknesses in my game and get them to improve. When I do play matches, I notice the improvements. But I am playing to enjoy playing. And I like doing all those drills more than I like playing matches. I even do a lot of shadow drills in front of a mirror to get the technique of good stokes and good footwork into my muscle memory. There are many ways of changing habits when you are stuck in an area, on and off the table.

So, my opinion would be, stick with smooth and work on the techniques that are holding you back. But, I will still also say, there is nothing wrong with putting short pips on your backhand. For me, Ma Long does not, Zhang Jike does not, Timo Boll Does not, Michael Maze does not, J. O. Waldner did not, Jorgen Persson did not. In short, the players I like and try to emulate used smooth. That, and my style of play, which is offensive with an emphasis on consistency, works best with smooth rubber.

What should you do? I dunno.

well I don't really play that much so as to improve my technique. I play once a week a couple of hours.
also I've been playing for some years now so it's not like Im learning how to play and inverted would be a better way to learn.

"For me, Ma Long does not, Zhang Jike does not, Timo Boll Does not, Michael Maze does not, J. O. Waldner did not, Jorgen Persson did not. In short, the players I like and try to emulate used smooth."
I heard this type of comment before.
with all the respect, I think many players don't realize what it takes to play like those guys or how far we amateurs are from that.
they have all the natural talent anyone could ask and they have been doing nothing but play tt for 15, 20, 30 years.

 

[svendelle]

You have to think about the tactical aspect of the game playing with pips. When you play at the level showing on the youtube-video you will be exploited with the pips on the backhand when you are playing more experienced players. Short serve to the forhand and long to the pips and you will not be able to put in an attack which will put any pressure on your apponnent. Or when you are serving a long push wide to your forhand and then just keep pressure on your backhand.

You look like guy with a decent technic so maybe you should think about playing with a backside which isn´t max. so you could make a decent backhand topspin and can´t be expoited that easy.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

You have to think about the tactical aspect of the game playing with pips. When you play at the level showing on the youtube-video you will be exploited with the pips on the backhand when you are playing more experienced players. Short serve to the forhand and long to the pips and you will not be able to put in an attack which will put any pressure on your apponnent. Or when you are serving a long push wide to your forhand and then just keep pressure on your backhand. You look like guy with a decent technic so maybe you should think about playing with a backside which isn´t max. so you could make a decent backhand topspin and can´t be expoited that easy.

the guy in the first video is not me. he's a player from US called brian pace who switched to pips in the bh after noticing the benefits it gave him. the theory that you need to develop a good bh loop to be successful is nonsense. the player in the second video (liu song) is a professional player, world top 100, and all he does with bh is push or block with the long pips but he does this very few times, he always tries to play fh loop. inverted rubbers and looping is not necessary in any level. you just need a strategy that works for you given your personal characteristics.

 

[svendelle]

the guy in the first video is not me. he's a player from US called brian pace who switched to pips in the bh after noticing the benefits it gave him. the theory that you need to develop a good bh loop to be successful is nonsense. the player in the second video (liu song) is a professional player, world top 100, and all he does with bh is push or block with the long pips but he does this very few times, he always tries to play fh loop. inverted rubbers and looping is not necessary in any level. you just need a strategy that works for you given your personal characteristics.

You are twisting what i´m saying. I´m saying that you can be exploited with pips and you have to think about that. If you feel pips is the way forward for you then play with them.

 

[sebas-aguirre]

You are twisting what i´m saying. I´m saying that you can be exploited with pips and you have to think about that. If you feel pips is the way forward for you then play with them.

what do you mean by you can be exploited?
that you are giving initiative to the other player to attack?
giving the initiative is not always something bad.....
think about joo se hyuk, he gives initiative to the other and he is currently 11th player in the world.
also tang peng, the guy with pips which "can be exploited" is 26th player in the world :-S

 

[firdausnazeri]

i also using SP on my BH, inverted rubber on FH...
mostly of my point came from SP defense and attacking....not much from my FH because when i stay near to table, i unable to smash or hit the ball more well as i more prefer to hit the ball accurately far from table...
i try to improve my FH attacking near to table, now i found why i can't hit the ball well. this is due to inconsistency of hitting the ball near to table and difficulty to do well topspin on the ball.
SP on BH give me more some adv as i faced the difficulty to control BH and really weak on doing RPB...

 

[sebas-aguirre]

actually I find that sp in bh helps me develop technique.
with inverted I have a tendency to always put the wrist there and try to give the ball some spin, kind of what zhang jike does when receiving a serve.
even when I'm not looping.
I have problems to make a simple flat shot with bh.
I always end up either looping a bit or blocking without much forward movement.
I think this deformation came from the time when I was learning to loop, when everything that has spin is applauded and everything without spin sucks.
sp helps me develop a good flat shot.
later if I wanted to add looping I could but a good predictable flat shot is essential.