UK Table Tennis Prospects

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Connor Green, Louis Price, Shayan Siraj, Tom Jarvis, Mari Baldwin, all failed to get through qualifying for the current WTT Düsseldorf feeder.
I think one of the reasons France and Germany are way ahead of us is they have a proper "pyramid" national league system making clubs stronger and more involved in player development
 
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A lot of clubs are struggling to stay afloat.

Lower numbers of people returning since Covid and ever-increasing venue costs mean that both the clubs I am involved with are running at a loss, a situation that will not be sustainable for much longer.

This means there is absolutely no chance of paying a coach, so any coaching is by volunteers.

There do seem to be a few grants available for equipment, but not to help with costs of running clubs or coaching.

The Ping Pong Parlours in shopping centres and free outdoor tables, unfortunately seem to be counterproductive for getting people into clubs and progressing in the sport, as people who were casual players, now often go there for free instead of going to clubs.

Local league matches go on far too late for children (and adults really), so few take part and when they do the lower leagues are full of awkward players with styles they are unlikely to meet when playing in junior competitions.

For most of the kids that come to clubs, table tennis is one of the many activities they do, so trying to get them to make it a priority over the others with the above obstacles is extremely difficult.
 
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We see the same issues here too Sedis. Local leagues mostly old guys, odd styles, late nights, have to wait until juniors are old enough to play in those conditions but by then some have drifted off to other sports. We enter teams into national cadet/junior leagues but they aren't held every week, and doing more events means a lot of travelling for families to more distant venues.

We're lucky to have some great volunteer coaches, and we've had a surprising uptake of 10-13 year olds via the TT Kidz program. But there's a real disconnect between that activity and what comes next.
 
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I don't entirely disagree with you.

I also don't have the answers as to how it improves in this country.

But what I do know, is that it is, and has been, run extremely poorly for many years.

Although looking at recent issues, this seems to be a requirement if you want to run a national TT association! 😂
It's a global issue not just an English issue. TT needs a kick in the butt at a level beyond anything that is specific to just the TT environment in every country.
 

NDH

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It's a global issue not just an English issue. TT needs a kick in the butt at a level beyond anything that is specific to just the TT environment in every country.
No doubt.

I hate this topic of discussion because I have nothing positive to say, and no solutions to the problems.

It doesn’t matter what they do, it’s still a horrendous TV sport for most people, and that will always limit its appeal to the masses.

“Ping Pong” is a better TV sport, but that just never has the publicity or marketing behind it.

Do you genuinely believe that a change of leadership and ideas is going to have a significant impact on the sport at a global level?
 
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No doubt.

I hate this topic of discussion because I have nothing positive to say, and no solutions to the problems.

It doesn’t matter what they do, it’s still a horrendous TV sport for most people, and that will always limit its appeal to the masses.

“Ping Pong” is a better TV sport, but that just never has the publicity or marketing behind it.

Do you genuinely believe that a change of leadership and ideas is going to have a significant impact on the sport at a global level?
Probably not - too much conservatism built into the sport. Yes, if I had the sport, I would limit the speed of equipment and go back to grass roots hard bat or limited old school Mark V.
 
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Pardon the intrusion, but I found this discussion fascinating and I thought I'd make an observation which might help.

Being Australian, and living in Australia means I know very little about the UK's next generation of TT talent, so on that front I can't comment sorry.

However - from the way you describe it, Australian TT is in EXACTLY the same boat as UK TT, in terms of creating new talent. Here in WA we are gasping for new generations of talent to take up the sport, and the age base of people playing at community level just seems to be getting greyer and greyer. We also are losing talent to other sports, to better paying jobs, and to other professions entirely -- just like in the UK.

A few people here have commented that if they had the money, they would invest in the sector, and fund the development of the sport... and oh dear lord, how many times have I heard that said in WA over the years?? And by how many different people??? I have honestly lost count - this particular idle wish is as common as raindrops in a deluge.

On the basis of these similarities, I feel I can offer my own personal observations.They're far from impartial mind you, but they're honest (for whatever that's worth.)

So many passionate TT people say 'if they had the money, they would fund the sport properly'.

Well, the thing is -- those people DO have the money already. But they don't spend it wisely.... and by this I mean, they don't buy locally made equipment, they buy equipment from the foreign majors.

For years I used to make blades as a hobby. Now I do it as a full time activity, because I love it, and wish to spend all the remaining years of my life doing it. Note that I say I do it 'as an activity', and not 'as a living'. I would LOVE to be able to make my living manufacturing blades. But I simply don't sell enough currently to pay all the bills. So just like our best TT juniors (and yours), and our best TT coaches (and yours) I am (or more correctly was) forced to do other things on the side to help make ends meet.

In my case, I make / made ends meet by being a regular carer for someone with a disability, and by surviving on the funds the Government subsequently provides (which ain't much!!). It's rewarding work that helps people... But it's not the work I'd ideally want to do. What I want to do is make my blades full time.

Up till very recently, while caring enabled me to keep making blades, it also drastically limited my ability to do so -- I spent as much time away from my business, as I did in it, trying to grow it.

I realised however unless I changed things drastically, my business wouldn't grow, as I just didn't have enough demand for my products to warrant spending more time and money growing it. I didn't have enough time to make blades to either create more demand for them, or satisfy any increase in demand I may create.

It was a classic 'chicken and egg' situation really... And in my case, I recently decided to focus on the business of making blades, despite the fact this meant a big drop in my income. Because a product needs to exist first, before there can be demand for it. So I'm going the whole hog now, and hoping and working like hell to make it work.

Basically I had to make this jump. Unless I changed what I did, I woud be stuck forever in this vicious circle, of not having enough time to make blades, and not having enough blades to sell to make a living doing it.

To help their sport, I submit UK players need to change what they currently do as well.

When it comes to the dearth of UK juniors, you are all exactly right -- they need to have the best coaching, and enough financial support to reach the top levels. But who's going to provide that funding?

I'm guessing that currently nobody is... just like here in Australia.

Who then SHOULD be providing that funding? Or more importantly, who DOES provide that funding in the places that already have stronger development pathways?

To my mind, the logical choice is your local TT equipment manufacturing industry -- because they have the most to gain from providing those funds. More junior players equals a bigger local market, equals more potential profit for them, so investing in the next generation if players is just good business.

If you were to make a list of all the countries that have large TT manufacturers, and then make a list of all the strongest table tennis nations, I'll bet you money those lists would be identical.

But it's the equipment manufacturers who came first -- they existed before the demand did, and before the development pathways were there.

Here in WA, I am the only full time TT equipment manufacturer in the whole state -- it's an area the size of Western Europe, but with only two million residents).

And despite looking around for a while now, it seems I am also (apparently) the only manufacturer of competition standard TT equipment Australia has.

Every other Australian TT brand is stocking chinese-made equipment. Most of it is cheaply made and just not up to snuff.

The larger Aussie TT brands (and there aren't that many frankly) currently aren't investing huge money on juniors or the local TT scene, because most of these brands are either owned by supermarket chains, or by people who don't love the sport enough to grow it. They secretly want to keep all the money they make by selling their complete junk.

Developing TT juniors, and growing a sport nationally, is always a chicken and Egg situation, and everyone keeps arguing which bits of the sport need to come first with whatever meagre funds may be available.

The answer is always invest in industry first, by buying local. You need something sustainable driving continued investment in the sport over time, and for that, you need people with substantial vested interests, and substantial money to spend... as nobody without both of these is going to care that much.

Yes, governments can invest more in the sport -- but they won't, as there's so many other things they need to provide.

Yes, foreign brands sponsor local tournaments and players... But it's typically a pittance compared to what they invest locally, within their own countries, where the benefits and payoffs are usually so much larger for them.

I love my job, I love the sport, and I love helping people. Frankly I would love nothing more than to invest hugely in the sport locally, by donating loads of equipment to local schools, and by sponsoring as many promising juniors as I could possibly find.

But doing so now on a large scale with my current tiny business would quickly send me broke. The best I can currently do, is donating whatever equipment I can spare or afford to schools and juniors, as often as I can spare it... Which is nowhere near as often as I want to, and nowhere near as much as I could POTENTIALLY do, if only my business were bigger.

But everybody locally keeps buying from Butterfly, Donic, Andro and DHS.

So many people don't even bother to try my products, so fixated are they on all the marketing nonsense from the majors, or whatever it is that Ma Long currently happens to be fanning through the air.

And so the rot continues.

You want better UK juniors? Support your local manufacturers and bladesmiths, no matter how small. They're doing it for the love of the game, not to consolidate their massive market power or dominate the sport worldwide.

Find one that cares about the sport, who makes great gear, support them as much as you're able, and encourage them strongly to give back to the sport as they grow.

It's not a quick fix by any stretch, but over the long term, history suggests it's the most sustainable one.

Eggs don't lay themselves, so go breed yourself a big, fat, generously-minded chicken.

Good luck with it 🙂
 

NDH

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@Wakkibatty, I’ll not quote the whole message 😅

There are a few immediate problems I see with your post.

1. As far as the UK goes, I don’t know of any decent blade maker and absolutely no manufacturers who make rubbers.

Do you make rubbers as well?

2. At a guess, I’d say less than 2% of players actually care about the sport in the context we are talking here.

They play because they enjoy it, but they don’t care about equipment, or the running of the sport on a national level (let alone global level).

There would be zero incentive for them to pay more and get “local” equipment for example.

Those players who do care, often will want the “best” equipment, and whilst that may be achievable with blades, it’s likely unachievable with locally sourced rubbers, balls etc.

I appreciate I’m back to highlighting the negatives without offering any positives…..

I wonder what makes something like Paddle Ball so attractive, as that has come from no where to gain a HUGE following and seems to be taking over the world.

Yet, I don’t see it on TV or in the shops that much.

Maybe the lower skill level required for entry is more attractive…..
 
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One "easy" fix would be to get the UK properly on the WTT circuit so that our youngsters have easier and cheaper access to international events. My daughter is highly ranked in England in her age category and should (based on her playing ability) be active on the WTT circuit, but for me to put her on the WTT circuit (even just playing locally in Europe to keep the costs down) I'd still be looking at about £500 per tournament once all costs are factored in. And you've got to do these things on a regular basis to maintain ranking position etc. Realistically I'd need to be throwing about £1000-1500 per month at it to do it properly. TTE don't offer any support because when you're playing on the WTT circuit you're technically not representing England, it's an individual thing (TTE do cover or contribute costs when she is representing England at international level).

We have a small population of juniors playing table tennis to begin with...that small population then gets massively smaller when you eliminate all the parents that can't throw that sort of money at it on a regular basis.
 
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@Wakkibatty, I’ll not quote the whole message 😅

There are a few immediate problems I see with your post.

1. As far as the UK goes, I don’t know of any decent blade maker and absolutely no manufacturers who make rubbers.

Do you make rubbers as well?

2. At a guess, I’d say less than 2% of players actually care about the sport in the context we are talking here.

They play because they enjoy it, but they don’t care about equipment, or the running of the sport on a national level (let alone global level).

There would be zero incentive for them to pay more and get “local” equipment for example.

Those players who do care, often will want the “best” equipment, and whilst that may be achievable with blades, it’s likely unachievable with locally sourced rubbers, balls etc.

I appreciate I’m back to highlighting the negatives without offering any positives…..

I wonder what makes something like Paddle Ball so attractive, as that has come from no where to gain a HUGE following and seems to be taking over the world.

Yet, I don’t see it on TV or in the shops that much.

Maybe the lower skill level required for entry is more attractive…..
All fair points, and you are quite right - many people simply don't care that much.

As to your questions:

1: I don't make rubbers currently, but I have investigated it. Haifu are willing to manufacture OEM rubbers for us, and conduct the whole ITTF approval process as well. My life partner and I went part-way down that road, but pulled out half way through. It's only cost-viable if you sell 1000+ rubbers a year, every year. We'd struggle to do that currently, but once our turnover increases we will look at it again. The test rubbers we developed up weren't half bad -- they weren't AA level tensor level rubbers, but they weren't rubbish either (think Bryce level speed, but Srriver level spin. Going tacky however would make them even better). As we weren't continuing immediately, we had to put the whole project on ice for now. Hopefully we'll be back finishing their development in a year or two.

As for local bladesmiths / manufacturers, I'm saddened (but not that surprised) to hear you don't know of any. Maybe there are none, maybe their marketing effort isn't sufficient to spread the word and become well known. Either way, you can't support what isn't there, so that's fair enough.

Quick question: if there WERE a manufacturer (local or otherwise) heavily supporting UK community clubs & juniors with equipment & sponsorships, would you then support them back (with word of mouth promotion, if not by buying their products yourself?)

I ask because quite frankly I'd LOVE to sell more equipment into the UK than I currently am. I can't just rely on my local market to survive, WA's population is just too small and spread out 😔

I'm not a UK company, or UK citizen, and as as you rightfully point out, most people don't care enough to do anything.
I however actually DO care quite a lot -- about supporting the game in general, and about supporting junior players.
I already do what I can to support TT at the community level here in WA, and im perfectly happy to do it elsewhere as well - I just don't want to go broke doing it.

I freely admit us supporting community TT is partially marketing and PR for Jenna and I, but it's also the kind of advertising and promotion we really like -- something that actually delivers benefits to the community in general and to the game itself. (You don't start a business like ours if you want to be get rich - there just aren't the margins for it 🤣🤣).
 
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One "easy" fix would be to get the UK properly on the WTT circuit so that our youngsters have easier and cheaper access to international events
Thie would be an ideal solution, but WTT has its own problems, but it is easy to acsess and apply if you have the correct ways to get there.

Clubs in England such as Archway do this, with thier youngsters playing WTT tournements quite regularly.
 
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Thie would be an ideal solution, but WTT has its own problems, but it is easy to acsess and apply if you have the correct ways to get there.

Clubs in England such as Archway do this, with thier youngsters playing WTT tournements quite regularly.

I'm not saying there's a problem with accessing and applying to play in WTT events. I'm saying that the cost of doing so is prohibitive unless you're in a position where you can spend £1000+ per month on your child's table tennis. I'm aware of Archway and that they sent players to these events...but as far as I'm aware these entries are still being charged the going rate...but maybe the club is covering those costs if they have the financial ability to do so?
 
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says toooooo much choice!!
says toooooo much choice!!
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Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel, just a small dot, but it's there!
The academy that I coach at, has 3 qualified coaches, the coaching is FREE. Players play for table time. we are not profit making as such, spare cash goes towards balls, nets, equipment etc
We have a healthy waiting list of youngsters and adult learners that want to learn how to play, So there is interest in the sport.

One of the local leagues made an enquiry with us last year about trying to get a junior local league up and running, this is still a work in progress.
One thing the league has done, is to have 3 match card formats -
Bulk standard match card. (no junior players)
Junior AWAY match card
Junior HOME match card
Because the numbers of juniors actually playing local league matches is pretty limited, the junior match cards are only for 1 junior playing in 1 team, both the home and away junior cards have the junior player, playing games 1, 3 & 5, this means the player can get away earlier, no late nights!!! This works REALLY WELL, opponents have taken this on board, they can see for themselves that the sport is getting 'older' new blood needs to come thru. They were not so keen on being taken to the cleaners and losing!!!
IF we start to get teams with more than 1 junior playing, then options become more limited, and I would think we would have to revert back to the standard match card. If enough clubs get 2 juniors wanting to play matches, then the possibility of a 2 person / team league for juniors becomes a real possibility.
 
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NDH

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Quick question: if there WERE a manufacturer (local or otherwise) heavily supporting UK community clubs & juniors with equipment & sponsorships, would you then support them back (with word of mouth promotion, if not by buying their products yourself?)
I guess this can go a few different ways.

It's possible that the Juniors who are used to using Manufacturer X will continue to do so as they play into adulthood (and start spending their own money).

Or.... The marketing of a Butterfly (or similar) take over and they opt for that.

I think it would be easy to say that we would support a manufacturer who is helping the sport at a local level, but I'm just not sure I see a way for that manufacturer to come out of it profitably.

Out of interest, what price points do your blades hit?
 
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NDH

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Maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel, just a small dot, but it's there!
The academy that I coach at, has 3 qualified coaches, the coaching is FREE
Is that free because the coaches volunteer, or because there is someone/something subsiding the cost?

There just aren't enough people nationwide who are willing to give up their time to do it for free anymore (and I don't blame them).

At the same time, the money isn't really there to be able to pay these people a worthwhile amount for their time either!
 
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What I like about Wakkibaty's post is the reminder that to grow a sport, you need to build industry around it.

Is tennis really that much more TV friendly than table tennis is? I am not entirely sold. Not even sure football/soccer is that entertaining either if you come to it as an adult and never played as a child. But the histories of the sports are pretty different and because tennis has always negotiated TV deals and had a large mebership base, it works.

Popularizing hardbat next to to table tennis would be the easiest way to get the sport growing again. The whole idea of that ridiculously meaningless TT alternative that the WTT was trying to sell was nonsense. Hardbat is already able to do great things, it just needs to be aggressively revised.

Experimenting with the size and height of the table and the height of the net is somehow frowned upon in our incredibly conservative sport. Limiting the size of the court or inceeasing it as a variant can help and also create new dimensions/constraints to work around while turning space limitationsof the sport into a beneift and not a curse. But if experiments are done to create new variants that can work for people, the sport can have a better chance of growing.

However, this ultra juiced and boosted rubber with fastest racket is going to struggle to attract interest without having a strategy for reducing the space costs tied to the sport and enhancing aspects of the experience.
 
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I'm not a really hardcore table tennis guy, but i was watching some major league tt matches on YouTube and found out that the best player is a French guy called Enzo Angles who i'd never heard of before.

After watching a few of his matches, i have no doubt that he would beat any English player apart from maybe Pitchford, and this Enzo guy doesn't even seem to be a top 10 French player?

We are levels behind everyone else.
 
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However, this ultra juiced and boosted rubber with fastest racket is going to struggle to attract interest without having a strategy for reducing the space costs tied to the sport and enhancing aspects of the experience.

This is a problem. In the modern game the most effective way to play the sport is to be an attacking two-winged looper with fast high -spin rubbers...but that isn't the most attractive of styles to watch unless you're really into the sport and know what you're looking at. It's too fast and the rallies don't generally last long enough. Ally Pally was full to the rafters when it hosted the World Championships of Ping Pong a few years back. Granted the marketing around that event was pretty good compared to standard TTE marketing on conventional table tennis...but the Ping Pong was much more enjoyable as a spectator sport because the ball was moving slower with less spin and the rallies lasted longer; 8-10 shot rallies are common place in Ping Pong, but in conventional table tennis the average rally is something like 4-5 shots and most 8-10 shot rallies would be highlight reel material rather than something to be expected!
 
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I think funds should be going into getting more juniors playing. When I first started playing my interest was first peaked via a school teacher doing classes and it progressed from there and this was the same for many of my friends. But I was amazed at my club that there isn't any junior activities but I was told that you had to be a Level 2 coach to do this, incredible. Sadly, I imagine this is for insurance purposes but if you could remove this requirement or put funding into getting more level 2 coaches especially for school teachers and motivated club members I think things could improve.
 
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