French Pro A 2024-2025

[ThePongCommenter]

yep, hence I said it is a good move for him, with a brand that pays attention to him
very important to have a bond.
but then careful, all these forumers will want every information they can get on how indeed Joola is good for him haha,

Come on lol, you're better than this. "All these forumers"? I asked how vendor relations help a washed player to regain lost form and you gave nothing beyond extreme vagueness and are acting like I was pushing you for insider details (which for reasons I'll keep between us out of respect, is very ironic) and now acting like you predicted this recent turnaround in form for Pitchford.

But yeah, you really nailed it. When Pitchford inevitably goes on a bad one month stretch of league or WTT results again I suppose then it is because JOOLA forgot to pay him attention and there are no other factors at play?

however, this all started with me saying a private league like MLTT isn't really attracting all stars and are really just a tier 2 status in terms of league difficult.
maybe next season we will have more of an all star bunch, with up to 3 x 2800+ committed, and maybe a 4th if my discussion with Mimi goes well. I mean, wouldn't it be nice to have a CNT A team player in the MLTT too?

Nobody ever said that MLTT wasn't a Tier 2 or lower league in terms of difficulty. No need to re-frame your argument because you don't want to acknowledge in front of @Matt Hetherington from JOOLA (and MLTT) that you were insisting on multiple occasions that Pitchford is washed up and the MLTT is just a retirement home for veterans with little chance to grow as a league, rather than a place where some world class table tennis can still be on display and that there is a chance to grow in future seasons.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Nobody ever said that MLTT wasn't a Tier 2 or lower league in terms of difficulty. No need to re-frame your argument because you don't want to acknowledge in front of @Matt Hetherington from JOOLA (and MLTT) that you were insisting on multiple occasions that Pitchford is washed up and the MLTT is just a retirement home for veterans with little chance to grow as a league, rather than a place where some world class table tennis can still be on display and that there is a chance to grow in future seasons.

if you read what I said, I said MLTT must not be seen as a league for "down the hill players".
I said, they need to sign more (youger) super stars.
And then nextlevel and you went on about Pitchford, while the focus was on MLTT and next season.
I already said, I am helping MLTT upping its level and lowering its age on high level players.

I also said, there are already many leagues in the world for washed up players, who can still earn good money and those leagues are known for either up and coming unknowns players or players in there 40s. The purpose for those older players there is pure income and not a league for personal improvements.

All I said is facts and you not trying to debate the facts. but hey, just focus on 1 player ..... and make it weeks of stupid discussion and unwilling to accept that MLTT is a tier 2 league, but always want to say, but Pitchford is playing, so how can it be weak...

I am glad there are younger 2800+ players going.
oh, and last time I mentioned this, you or was it somebody else saying I don't know what is 2800+ levels.
yeah, i know nothing

 

[NextLevel]

if you read what I said, I said MLTT must not be seen as a league for "down the hill players".
I said, they need to sign more (youger) super stars.
And then nextlevel and you went on about Pitchford, while the focus was on MLTT and next season.
I already said, I am helping MLTT upping its level and lowering its age on high level players.

I also said, there are already many leagues in the world for washed up players, who can still earn good money and those leagues are known for either up and coming unknowns players or players in there 40s. The purpose for those older players there is pure income and not a league for personal improvements.

All I said is facts and you not trying to debate the facts. but hey, just focus on 1 player ..... and make it weeks of stupid discussion and unwilling to accept that MLTT is a tier 2 league, but always want to say, but Pitchford is playing, so how can it be weak...

I am glad there are younger 2800+ players going.
oh, and last time I mentioned this, you or was it somebody else saying I don't know what is 2800+ levels.
yeah, i know nothing

Everyone can decide whether what you said werre "facts" or pushing your own agenda to support your own activities to get players into the league. Calling a player like Pitchford washed up at 31 years old was plainly ridiculous no matter what stats were used to support it - it was much more reasonable to say he was going through a tough period but was clearly still a world class player. That was my point but you pushed the argument as hard as you wanted to. Anyone who considers MLTT to be for washed up players hardly follows global TT, many of these supposedly washed up players are or could still be the top players on their national teams but play in MLTT for one reason or another.

Table tennis is a sport where skill can keep someone playing at a high level into their thirties. Anyone who thinks these players in MLTT are washed up either doesn't watch a lot of TT or has their own agenda. Many players even in the top leagues are older than Pitchford . It was just bad form to continue to use stats to put down Pitchford to support your argument against MLTT.

 

[Metaxa]

Nobody ever said that MLTT wasn't a Tier 2 or lower league in terms of difficulty. No need to re-frame your argument because you don't want to acknowledge in front of @Matt Hetherington from JOOLA (and MLTT) that you were insisting on multiple occasions that Pitchford is washed up and the MLTT is just a retirement home for veterans with little chance to grow as a league, rather than a place where some world class table tennis can still be on display and that there is a chance to grow in future seasons.

Come, come, world top is relative. There are indeed some top and sub-top players but the majority are sub-sub players. You can hardly call Damian Provost a sub-topper. He played one season here in the Greek league but deliberately chose the lesser matches due to other commitments elsewhere. But maybe next season will be expanded again with even better players if enough dollars flow.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Come, come, world top is relative. There are indeed some top and sub-top players but the majority are sub-sub players. You can hardly call Damian Provost a sub-topper. He played one season here in the Greek league but deliberately chose the lesser matches due to other commitments elsewhere. But maybe next season will be expanded again with even better players if enough dollars flow.

Again, Nobody ever said that MLTT wasn't a Tier 2 or lower league in terms of difficulty, at the current time. The discussion was whether the league, in its second season, was headed down a bad path and an unserious retirement home because some of its best players were over 30 years old, which I pointed out in another posts is the exact same case in the TTBL this season. I never called Damien Provost a "sub topper" or really said anything about his level so I'm not sure why you're bringing him up. He's 14-19 in the MLTT this season FYI.

By the way, it's not maybe - next season is confirmed to be expanded with 2 additional teams and several more world class players coming in.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

if you read what I said, I said MLTT must not be seen as a league for "down the hill players".
I said, they need to sign more (youger) super stars.
And then nextlevel and you went on about Pitchford, while the focus was on MLTT and next season.
I already said, I am helping MLTT upping its level and lowering its age on high level players.

I didn't go "on and on about Pitchford", but I did respond to a couple of your comments where you noted his 33.3% winrate in Pro A which was comprised of 6 matches, 2 against the Lebruns, as a sign of him being washed up. Or where you brought up his ranking chart which as you know and as MH pointed out earlier is far more complex than just a number after the ranking system has changed.

I also said, there are already many leagues in the world for washed up players, who can still earn good money and those leagues are known for either up and coming unknowns players or players in there 40s. The purpose for those older players there is pure income and not a league for personal improvements.

Everyone knows this, no debate here. And I don't think anyone ever disputed that there are some players who are out there collecting a paycheck. But what you kept asserting is that MLTT wouldn't survive like this and for other reasons. Why have those other leagues with paycheck collectors continued to survive then?

All I said is facts and you not trying to debate the facts. but hey, just focus on 1 player ..... and make it weeks of stupid discussion and unwilling to accept that MLTT is a tier 2 league, but always want to say, but Pitchford is playing, so how can it be weak...

I am glad there are younger 2800+ players going.
oh, and last time I mentioned this, you or was it somebody else saying I don't know what is 2800+ levels.
yeah, i know nothing

I brought the facts to the 33.3% winrate discussion and the average age of MLTT vs TTBL discussion. I thought it was mostly a good discussion but again, you are better than this last line. Nobody said (and certainly I didn't say) you don't know what a 2800+ level is or you know nothing, when you make big claims some people may question them or ask for elaboration.

 

[NextLevel]

Come, come, world top is relative. There are indeed some top and sub-top players but the majority are sub-sub players. You can hardly call Damian Provost a sub-topper. He played one season here in the Greek league but deliberately chose the lesser matches due to other commitments elsewhere. But maybe next season will be expanded again with even better players if enough dollars flow.

I opened this thread in part because there wasn't a dedicated thread and I like watching the matches. Just like the Bundesliga thread, I will pop in with matches,

The main argument was someone (Tony, pilgrim. joshuamak10) saying that the MLTT is mostly for players past their prime because Kou Lei was one of the best players and older than 35 years old. My main argument was that Kou Lei is still a world class player who could perform well on tour if he dedicated himself to it, but for whatever reasons he was not interested, probably because of the WTT requirements to maintain a ranking. Eugene Wang, another world class player in the league in his late 30s, proved this recently with his performance in the Pan American Cup where he could definitely have beaten Kanak Jha. The MLTT has a lot of players with good pedigree and using their age as the primary consideration to argue against the quality of the league is not fair to table tennis in general, skills allow high level play into older age.

Then it expanded into arguments about Pitchford etc. Damien Provost made the semi-finals of the French national championship a few years ago. Whatever you think of him, he is a world class player, soft style, but a world class player. Not everyone can play or wants to play in Pro A or Bundesliga or Polish League, there just are not enough spots for everyone and some people have other priorities.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I already said, I am helping MLTT upping its level and lowering its age on high level players.

They are doing just fine on their own in this regard. To my understanding, Princeton owners will be the main reason that one particular high profile KNT player is getting brought in, unless you happen to be servicing said player as well? Are you going to mention who these incoming young high level players are or is it all prohibited by an NDA that allows you to perhaps name them implicitly but not explicitly?

 

[Metaxa]

I opened this thread in part because there wasn't a dedicated thread and I like watching the matches. Just like the Bundesliga thread, I will pop in with matches,

The main argument was someone (Tony, pilgrim. joshuamak10) saying that the MLTT is mostly for players past their prime because Kou Lei was one of the best players and older than 35 years old. My main argument was that Kou Lei is still a world class player who could perform well on tour if he dedicated himself to it, but for whatever reasons he was not interested, probably because of the WTT requirements to maintain a ranking. Eugene Wang, another world class player in the league in his late 30s, proved this recently with his performance in the Pan American Cup where he could definitely have beaten Kanak Jha. The MLTT has a lot of players with good pedigree and using their age as the primary consideration to argue against the quality of the league is not fair to table tennis in general, skills allow high level play into older age.

Then it expanded into arguments about Pitchford etc. Damien Provost made the semi-finals of the French national championship a few years ago. Whatever you think of him, he is a world class player, soft style, but a world class player. Not everyone can play or wants to play in Pro A or Bundesliga or Polish League, there just are not enough spots for everyone and some people have other priorities.

I like Damien's style. Plays with a lot of feeling, a little bit Waldner style. But he is a sup-sup topper. Despite not featuring in the WTT circus, he would not be a top-100 player either in my humble opinion. In fact, he has now become too old for that too at 40. But he did choose a different form of professional income. The fact that he now lives in Monaco will also have its reasons, and that is of course his full right.

 

[NextLevel]

I like Damien's style. Plays with a lot of feeling, a little bit Waldner style. But he is a sup-sup topper. Despite not featuring in the WTT circus, he would not be a top-100 player either in my humble opinion. In fact, he has now become too old for that too at 40. But he did choose a different form of professional income. The fact that he now lives in Monaco will also have its reasons, and that is of course his full right.

Playing for a country like France makes it harder, there are lots of good French players who will never get the professional investment to be top 100 players. But Damien is not the #1 on his team in MLTT, Lebesson is, and is Lebession a sub sub topper because he no longer plays for France and is over 35? No Lebesson is a legit world class player, any top league will do well to have such a player. But back to Damien, the point here is that the league is very strong right now, the fact that Damien is 40+ is not how to judge the league, you don't find many leagues where players like Damien are team #2. Those leagues are all world class leagues or better. Are you confident that the best players in the Greek league are better than the best players in MLTT?

Look at Jin Ueda as another example of a player whose national team keeps him off the rankings. Or Yuto Muromatsu. Both had to play in Bundesliga to keep their faith going. Bit none of this is news to you, you are wiser about table tennis than myself. I just don't like it when people make simplistic statements about how age impacts playing quality in table tennis.

 

[Metaxa]

Playing for a country like France makes it harder, there are lots of good French players who will never get the professional investment to be top 100 players. But Damien is not the #1 on his team in MLTT, Lebesson is, and is Lebession a sub sub topper because he no longer plays for France and is over 35? No Lebesson is a legit world class player, any top league will do well to have such a player. But back to Damien, the point here is that the league is very strong right now, the fact that Damien is 40+ is not how to judge the league, you don't find many leagues where players like Damien are team #2. Those leagues are all world class leagues or better. Are you confident that the best players in the Greek league are better than the best players in MLTT?

Look at Jin Ueda as another example of a player whose national team keeps him off the rankings. Or Yuto Muromatsu. Both had to play in Bundesliga to keep their faith going. Bit none of this is news to you, you are wiser about table tennis than myself. I just don't like it when people make simplistic statements about how age impacts playing quality in table tennis.

I don't think Tony really meant it that way. There are VERY and many good players between 35 & 40. The fact is that the MTTL does not (yet) really represent the young violence. If Lebesson and Provost, for example, still want to get their share, so be it. Money lures players in all countries and leagues, it always has been and always will be. But... the danger (and that is very real) is that once again no young players from the club get the chance to make their mark. I see and have seen many domestic players leaving their countries to play abroad. Here in Greece they understood very well that it could not go on like this and as of this season it was no longer allowed to field more than one foreign player in one team. I can only welcome that. On the other hand, young players should also learn something from the older ones, a match against Karakasevic for example (who also played in the Greek league but is now almost 50) is something a young player can learn from. All in all, it is and remains a difficult exercise to start an attractive league anywhere in the world.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

But... the danger (and that is very real) is that once again no young players from the club get the chance to make their mark. I see and have seen many domestic players leaving their countries to play abroad.

What's the danger? MLTT teams aren't tied to actual clubs where players are expected to train and develop at.

Same as UTT.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I don't think Tony really meant it that way. There are VERY and many good players between 35 & 40. The fact is that the MTTL does not (yet) really represent the young violence. If Lebesson and Provost, for example, still want to get their share, so be it. Money lures players in all countries and leagues, it always has been and always will be. But... the danger (and that is very real) is that once again no young players from the club get the chance to make their mark. I see and have seen many domestic players leaving their countries to play abroad. Here in Greece they understood very well that it could not go on like this and as of this season it was no longer allowed to field more than one foreign player in one team. I can only welcome that. On the other hand, young players should also learn something from the older ones, a match against Karakasevic for example (who also played in the Greek league but is now almost 50) is something a young player can learn from. All in all, it is and remains a difficult exercise to start an attractive league anywhere in the world.

yep, you know exactly what I am saying
especially when NL ask me about timo boll and chuang.
it is all relative to playing performance and not only age, Pitchford's playing performance was not there, both in France and both on WTT and a clear trend over the past 3 years of it declining.
how NL can't spot the facts, I don't know. The other "old" players, have a very stable performance, despite their ages. so i'm talking about declining players, and he thinks its about age and struggling with the number big time.
there is no ways he missed all those stats I posted of said decline
never the less, I wasted enough energy on this matter. Should Pitchford stay next season, men's side, he would have more fearsome competition.

Greek to 1 player, that actually hurt me a bit.
I had a top team that is ready to take a player from me, but now with only 1 allowed... I am looking elsewhere.
I understand this is good for the locals, so fully support that.
Austria allows 2 too, and there isn't much young Austrian getting opportunities.
It is good to have a balance, so can't deny that.

 

[Metaxa]

What's the danger? MLTT teams aren't tied to actual clubs where players are expected to train and develop at.

Same as UTT.

I absolutely do not know the US league. I only know that at the time a Belgian, Norbert Van de Walle started playing in America.
Now, the MLTT (actually, this should come in the other topic) should perhaps revise its format and MUST insert at least a few of its own young players from the US league. It might be a boon for the organisation....

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I absolutely do not know the US league. I only know that at the time a Belgian, Norbert Van de Walle started playing in America.
Now, the MLTT (actually, this should come in the other topic) should perhaps revise its format and MUST insert at least a few of its own young players from the US league. It might be a boon for the organisation and JOOLA....

There is already a requirement to roster American players on each team in the league so that is taken care of. Not sure what JOOLA has to do with this though.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't think Tony really meant it that way. There are VERY and many good players between 35 & 40. The fact is that the MTTL does not (yet) really represent the young violence. If Lebesson and Provost, for example, still want to get their share, so be it. Money lures players in all countries and leagues, it always has been and always will be. But... the danger (and that is very real) is that once again no young players from the club get the chance to make their mark. I see and have seen many domestic players leaving their countries to play abroad. Here in Greece they understood very well that it could not go on like this and as of this season it was no longer allowed to field more than one foreign player in one team. I can only welcome that. On the other hand, young players should also learn something from the older ones, a match against Karakasevic for example (who also played in the Greek league but is now almost 50) is something a young player can learn from. All in all, it is and remains a difficult exercise to start an attractive league anywhere in the world.

Yes, but is young violence high level table tennis?. Which top league would you argue represents the young violence? The French Pro A which is almost exclusively the Lebruns for young world class talent? Or you think Quadri and Freitas who lead the top teams also qualify? The German Bundesliga where players like Dima are still sporting some of the best individual records? Is Jin Ueda a spring chicken? Many of the best leagues in the world have similar issues to the MLTT.

There is US trained talent in the MLTT, even if Adi Sareen is Australian, and the Naresh brothers are still trying to make their mark. Nikhil Kumar might not play much longer, but that is life. Not sure whether Darry Tsao is still playing. The main point I'm trying to make is that the league is not that different from other leagues in the world and while it has its limitations, the quality of the players is not a significant one. I suspm.ect if the league becomes viable enough, there will be some rules around using foreign players, but right now, even getting players to take TT seriously in the USA is a problem.

Can the league use better players? Of course, any league can. But are the problems related to age unique to the MLTT in some way? Of course not. Branding it that way is IMHO pushing an agenda.

 

[Metaxa]

There is already a requirement to roster American players on each team in the league so that is taken care of. Not sure what JOOLA has to do with this though.

Apology regarding Joola, that shouldn't have been there.

 

[NextLevel]

yep, you know exactly what I am saying
especially when NL ask me about timo boll and chuang.
it is all relative to playing performance and not only age, Pitchford's playing performance was not there, both in France and both on WTT and a clear trend over the past 3 years of it declining.
how NL can't spot the facts, I don't know. The other "old" players, have a very stable performance, despite their ages. so i'm talking about declining players, and he thinks its about age and struggling with the number big time.
there is no ways he missed all those stats I posted of said decline
never the less, I wasted enough energy on this matter. Should Pitchford stay next season, men's side, he would have more fearsome competition.

Greek to 1 player, that actually hurt me a bit.
I had a top team that is ready to take a player from me, but now with only 1 allowed... I am looking elsewhere.
I understand this is good for the locals, so fully support that.
Austria allows 2 too, and there isn't much young Austrian getting opportunities.
It is good to have a balance, so can't deny that.

You pointed out that Pitchford was playing worse as a way of saying that the league did not have top talent. His declining performance was a mix of personal reasons, WTT ranking participation etc. but even with the declining performance, there were wins over players like Dima in there. I was trying to point out how silly it was to say that someone aged 31 was going to accept being washed up, but you felt your stats were all that mattered. Even Freitas had periods where people thought he was finished and then he comes back to get silver, beating Alexis and almost beating Felix for his best performance at the European singles level in a continental event. The point here is that you can use your stats to push your agenda. I have made my point.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yes, but is young violence high level table tennis?. Which top league would you argue represents the young violence? The French Pro A which is almost exclusively the Lebruns for young world class talent? Or you think Quadri and Freitas who lead the top teams also qualify? The German Bundesliga where players like Dima are still sporting some of the best individual records? Is Jin Ueda a spring chicken? Many of the best leagues in the world have similar issues to the MLTT.

There is US trained talent in the MLTT, even if Adi Sareen is Australian, and the Naresh brothers are still trying to make their mark. Nikhil Kumar might not play much longer, but that is life. Not sure whether Darry Tsao is still playing. The main point I'm trying to make is that the league is not that different from other leagues in the world and while it has its limitations, the quality of the players is not a significant one. I suspm.ect if the league becomes viable enough, there will be some rules around using foreign players, but right now, even getting players to take TT seriously in the USA is a problem.

Can the league use better players? Of course, any league can. But are the problems related to age unique to the MLTT in some way? Of course not. Branding it that way is IMHO pushing an agenda.

There is also Daniel Tran, Amy and Lily, Andrew Cao, Edward if we are counting North American, and arguably Jishan.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

WTT ranking participation etc.

I used win rate.. this is percentage and not participation....

there were wins over players like Dima in there.

correct, and also losses to ones that are not good for his win rate.

I was trying to point out how silly it was to say that someone aged 31 was going to accept being washed up, but you felt your stats were all that mattered.

his win rate has been dropping, if this stat isn't important, then what is? potential win rate or current win rate?

Even Freitas had periods where people thought he was finished and then he comes back to get silver, beating Alexis and almost beating Felix for his best performance at the European singles level in a continental event. The point here is that you can use your stats to push your agenda. I have made my point.

yes, compare win rate/stats if you want
facts are facts, potential, then that means we opening a can of worms and ignoring actual stats.
then we can just argue that WCQ is the GOAT already