What is the most important area to jump from 1900 to 2100?

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The longer this thread goes on, I think the more and more loosing hope it becomes

If tb can't even read his own spin when he serves
of course he won't be able to read anyone's spin

this is why I said:

you need to know how to generate these kinds of spin, for you to be able to know how to read it, and then for you to be able to know how to return it.

 

[Khimmi]

Hi, this thread is very interesting for everyone. It offers very positive feedback on how to improve.
It doesn't just help @TB. It's helped me a lot.
It's one of the most useful threads I've ever read.
Thank you.

 

[JJ Ng]

Hi, this thread is very interesting for everyone. It offers very positive feedback on how to improve.
It doesn't just help @TB. It's helped me a lot.
It's one of the most useful threads I've ever read.
Thank you.

Agree. Very helpful thread. And entertaining thread too

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hi, this thread is very interesting for everyone. It offers very positive feedback on how to improve.
It doesn't just help @TB. It's helped me a lot.
It's one of the most useful threads I've ever read.
Thank you.

you are right
that is why I gave so much energy into it, as I know this is a common problem for many players.

Its a tough one, spend money or not, self learn or not. What to focus on, or rather, how to improve the understanding of the "Spin", or what we say for European players - how they feel (control) the ball.

 

[Ghostzen]

Appreciate the advice.

I think right now, what I need most is to find the motivation to practice. Like I said, after beating my 2140 chopper friend, I completely stopped playing for 4 months. I felt like I basically played as well as I could reasonably play, and I wasn't going to get any better after that. I couldn't find the motivation to pick up a paddle after that.

Only 2 weeks ago I picked up a paddle again. On my first day, I was pretty bad. I tried playing a 1600-1700 level friend and lost. On my 2nd day back, I was a bit better and surprised myself by beating a 2000 level guy that I usually have a 25% win rate against even when I'm in practice. But I haven't played since then. I can't find the motivation to play, partly because I don't truly believe I can get any better from here.

The reason I opened this thread was to maybe find 1 area to really focus on that could help me get to the next level. That might bring me some motivation to start playing again.

What's your actual playing leve?, if you don't mind me asking. Do you play league, events etc. Did you take the win against your chopper friend at an event or league? Or social practice /training.
There's definitely always room for improvement. Whatever age, standard be it younger players starting out or older players trying to improve or hold their level.

 

[JJ Ng]

you are right
that is why I gave so much energy into it, as I know this is a common problem for many players.

Its a tough one, spend money or not, self learn or not. What to focus on, or rather, how to improve the understanding of the "Spin", or what we say for European players - how they feel (control) the ball.

I find the thread entertaining because people throw out different ideas, showing that there are many routes to 2100. And I agree with that.

As for coaching, I know what TB is referring to. I see that at my club as well. Some former top players turning coaches have burned out on the sport and just feed forehand forehand and backhand backhand drills endlessly and mindlessly. But it is also student's responsibility (since they are paying the bill) to request exactly what they want.

I started playing when I was 13. My Chinese coach and his wife set me up. The training was pretty boring growing up just like how TB described it. My coaches were very old school. Every kid stands next to the table (that was also in the 1990's). Nobody dared to fool around. No kid dared to giggle. You know the drill (no pun intended).

However those drills did set me up for the next few decades even though I would take 1-3 years away from the sport from time to time.

I only started to piece things together as an adult on my own. I am a late boomer in that aspect.

I have had other coaches since then. I have tried taking lessons sporadically. What I have noticed is, the more lessons I take, the less I hit with the coach. The reason is that the fundamentals are there. It is either execution problem (meaning I need more repetition and more practice) or a strategy issue. I used to take one-hour lessons but I am too old to be doing that. For the rare 30-min lessons I get nowadays, I spend about 10 minutes hitting and 20 minutes talking and picking the coach's brain. And trust me. The coaches are more than happy to talk and not have to hit for 30 minutes straight! They are more than happy to answer any question I throw at them just as long as they don't need to pick up the paddle themselves OK I over exaggerated a little bit but you get the point.

In my area, I have taken lessons from five coaches and only two I would continue to take lessons from. There are many former Chinese provincial team members coaching in the area but I don't really care about that credential. Nowadays I care more about if the coaches can explain the nuisances to me and if not, I move on. You have to make your own decision.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Nowadays I care more about if the coaches can explain the nuisances to me and if not, I move on. You have to make your own decision.

Yep, and I fully agree.

I have had adult students telling me this. One of them is Hk's DHK's university teacher, who visited Taiwan for holiday and through DHK, I gave the teacher about 15-20 hours of coaching (less than 10 sessions over 2 trips).

The teacher said, the way I explain things makes her understand easier and makes her thinks more.
Something, her HK coaches couldn't do - after a year long (she is just over a year of playing).
She told DHK about my coaching style, and DHK was quite impressed.

I do believe there is a difference in amateur adult learning and semi pro/pro youth learning.
and you do have coaches out there that can do both - as you have experienced.

 

[JJ Ng]

What's your actual playing leve?, if you don't mind me asking. Do you play league, events etc. Did you take the win against your chopper friend at an event or league? Or social practice /training.
There's definitely always room for improvement. Whatever age, standard be it younger players starting out or older players trying to improve or hold their level.

He is solid 1900. To have a win rate of 25-30% against 2000-2100 level player, solid 1900 sounds about right. Any lower (like 1700 or 1800), the win rate would be almost 0.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

He is solid 1900. To have a win rate of 25-30% against 2000-2100 level player, solid 1900 sounds about right. Any lower (like 1700 or 1800), the win rate would be almost 0.

i'm also eager to hear if it was practice matches
or rating matches where wins/losses are at stake.

 

[Tyce]

Yep, and I fully agree.

I have had adult students telling me this. One of them is Hk's DHK's university teacher, who visited Taiwan for holiday and through DHK, I gave the teacher about 15-20 hours of coaching (less than 10 sessions over 2 trips).

The teacher said, the way I explain things makes her understand easier and makes her thinks more.
Something, her HK coaches couldn't do - after a year long (she is just over a year of playing).
She told DHK about my coaching style, and DHK was quite impressed.

I do believe there is a difference in amateur adult learning and semi pro/pro youth learning.
and you do have coaches out there that can do both - as you have experienced.

Interesting! Other than adults generally being able to grasp more abstract concepts and kids generally being more in touch with their body intuitively, I'm curious about the differences

 

[songdavid98]

Reading through this thread a few days later.

it's clear the answer is just serve, serve return, and first attack. As far as I know, only me and Matt Hetherington are above 2100 in this thread and we both said the same thing.

There's a separate conversation (that needs a separate thread) about coaches doing drills instead of serve, serve return, and first attack.

When I coach, I focus on serve, serve return, and first attack. But I only do so after I make sure the student's foundation is already present (so mainly the people who are good at practice and are bad at games).

If you are a person who is good at games and bad at practice, I would do the multiball and drills for a little bit, and then quickly turn it into something serve related or serve return related.

EDIT:

If i knew the answer i would be already 2100 many years ago...

IMO the answer is not simple and isn't unique. Every player is unique and there are many dimensions in a TT player. Some players may not be able to play a BH loop at all, but if they have a very good footwork and can play all-FH its ok. Or if they can't really attack but can retrieve everything in defence... etc...

I think there is no fundamental difference between 1900 to 2100 or 2100 to 2300 or 1700 to 1900.
You have to improve your game overall until everything clicks and you get more wins.
sometimes you have some real improvement in part of your game but weaknesses which are too obvious.
if weaknesses can be fixed then suddenly there is a "jump" in level, because those weaknesses were costing too many points.

There are many many details to work on. foot placement, balance, footwork , balance , grip form , timing etc...
i can't understand anyone can say i can't get better. There are tens of things we could improve on.
This year I took the new initiative of taking some notes about opponents in tournaments and writing down important advice so i don't forget about it.

I keep on training with coaches 1 on 1. Been doing so for more than 10 years. Improvement in RESULTS has been slow. But i believe I'm on the right track. With my current coach (GC), what i think is EXCEPTIONAL compared to my previous coaches is that he's been with me to tournaments and seeing me play live. So he could see the real level i'm playing at, the issues I need to fix, and we're working on that.

I think one cannot improve if one doesn't like training and practicing. because results don't come easily and quickly. Tony is right, its important to train with people of (much) higher level else you can't get there. But equally important to play with people of same or lower level, and of many many styles. In tournaments, i'm actually more in difficulty with those slow knuckle balls or serves or LP that i don't play enough in practice.

I think working on fundamentals, and doing footwork or multiball is never a waste of time. nor are serve drills, or 3rd ball drills etc. the most important is having short term and long term goals and not waste your time at the table.

My "long term" goal is to perform well at Asian Veteran tournament in October at Yokohama. I could lose 100 matches before that, a few good wins there will be worth it.

Your theory about "no difference between 1700-1900, 1900-2100, and 2100-2300" is mostly wrong. The only way your theory is right is if you work on all skills in parallel rather than in series.

Working on all skills at once is a terrible way to improve since it spreads your attention too thinly. You end up with brain overload. Too much advice in your brain.

If I truly had to categorize each rating, it would look something like this:
0-2100 Focus on really good serve, serve return, and first attack.
2100-2300 Focus on really good response to first attack + improvements to above
2300+ Focus on rally + improvements to above

 

[TensorBackhand]

Reading through this thread a few days later.

it's clear the answer is just serve, serve return, and first attack. As far as I know, only me and Matt Hetherington are above 2100 in this thread and we both said the same thing.

There's a separate conversation (that needs a separate thread) about coaches doing drills instead of serve, serve return, and first attack.

When I coach, I focus on serve, serve return, and first attack. But I only do so after I make sure the student's foundation is already present (so mainly the people who are good at practice and are bad at games).

If you are a person who is good at games and bad at practice, I would do the multiball and drills for a little bit, and then quickly turn it into something serve related or serve return related.

EDIT:


Your theory about "no difference between 1700-1900, 1900-2100, and 2100-2300" is mostly wrong. The only way your theory is right is if you work on all skills in parallel rather than in series.

Working on all skills at once is a terrible way to improve since it spreads your attention too thinly. You end up with brain overload. Too much advice in your brain.

If I truly had to categories each rating, it would look something like this:
0-2100 Focus on really good serve, serve return, and first attack.
2100-2300 Focus on really good response to first attack + improvements to above
2300+ Focus on rally + improvements to above

I'm glad that there seems to be some consensus that serve and receive are really what wins points. This is also true of sports like Tennis and Badminton, but I think the effect is even greater in Table Tennis.

Within the scope of receiving well, would you say that being able to loop against long serves and short push against short serves is the most important element?

 

[songdavid98]

I'm glad that there seems to be some consensus that serve and receive are really what wins points. This is also true of sports like Tennis and Badminton, but I think the effect is even greater in Table Tennis.

Within the scope of receiving well, would you say that being able to loop against long serves and short push against short serves is the most important element?

Loop REALLY HARD against long AND half long serves. And short push on short serves that aren’t topspin.

The most important parts are success rate and quality.

There are a couple of things I will mention too: Aim your attack where your opponent sucks at blocking (usually their forehand). If the opponent can forehand counter, either you didn’t hit hard enough or your opponent is 2500.

Hitting hard enough. I feel lots of players don’t push their limits. I highly encourage everyone below 2100 to start looping as hard as they can. Push your limits and know your limits. You will make your top limits usable. Most players can block loops that are 60km/h and 100 rotations/second. Maybe they can counterloop balls that are at 40 km/h and 80rps. But if you loop the ball at 80km/h and 150 rps, everything they know becomes useless. Opponents knowns to be good blockers suddenly cannot block even 1 ball ( for example, pips/junk rubber players).

Ability to read the ball is included when talking about short push and looping serves and first attack. It is crucial for success rate. And the harder you loop, the more reading matters. Maybe the ball is 4cm lower than usual. Maybe the ball is medium backspin instead of light backspin. Not noticing stuff like this will make you fail a lot.

 

[Angerer]

In another thread you said it because you using LAC

In another thread he said it because he was using Moon 12 Blue

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I highly encourage everyone below 2100 to start looping as hard as they can. Push your limits and know your limits. You will make your top limits usable.

OP doesn't feel the need to train FH drills that coaches offer
and make use of training partners that can't block balls.
have you saw all those videos?

so, how could he train looping hard, if either one loop, the ball goes off, or after the block, the ball goes off.
and then multiball feed from the partner, is probably more hurtful than helpful.

It is no brainer if any serve is long, you must punish it.
I see with lower level players, they tend to serve long more often.

 

[lightspin]

While I agree you should encourage all students to loop long serves, or even loop kill them, telling a 1900ish student to loop hard against half long serves is a horrifically bad idea. They probably cannot tell if the ball is half long or going to bounce a second time on the table. If you want them to break their hand and get injured, then that is great advice.

You could theoretically tell the student to try to judge if the ball is going to bounce twice. Then you can teach the student how to attempt to loop a half long ball with control in a manner they do not injure themself. There are techniques out there when looping a half long ball to minimize potential injury. Once they know how to judge the ball, modify their loop so they don't hurt themself and have some consistency, THEN AND ONLY THEN DO YOU TELL THE STUDENT TO LOOP KILL HALF LONG SERVES.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

While I agree you should encourage all students to loop long serves, or even loop kill them, telling a 1900ish student to loop hard against half long serves is a horrifically bad idea. They probably cannot tell if the ball is half long or going to bounce a second time on the table. If you want them to break their hand and get injured, then that is great advice.

yeah, especially with no training for half long or long and to try that out in matches.
I foresee rubber sales increase
but if they can hard topspin half longs, they are not 1900, not even 2100, maybe more.

You could theoretically tell the student to try to judge if the ball is going to bounce twice. Then you can teach the student how to attempt to loop a half long ball with control in a manner they do not injure themself. There are techniques out there when looping a half long ball to minimize potential injury. Once they know how to judge the ball, modify their loop so they don't hurt themself and have some consistency, THEN AND ONLY THEN DO YOU TELL THE STUDENT TO LOOP KILL HALF LONG SERVES.

Key word - judging (or reading) the ball.

for TB, I just suggest him to hire someone, even if it was 20 dollar or 50 dollar, to record serves for him to study
or maybe if he doesn't have cash on him to spare, to do a barter deal - swap some of his EJ inventory in exchange for service videos

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

should practice this for service return - hard loop/ attack anything that is half long or long

 

[Grumms]

1) Fitness and stamina
2) Serves
3) Receives
4) Topspin strokes
5) Counter loops

Question for 2100+ players. What area do you think is most important to improve from 1900 to 2100? How would you rank them in order?

It depends on your weakness. Mine were FH and footwork. Yours will be different. We all are different and don't start with the same qualities and flaws. So to jump, you have to improve your flaws and master your qualities.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Not sure 1900===>2100

But for 2500===>2700
1. Being able to loop winners while looking relax and not sweating.
2. Be photogenic for the cameraman.