What is the most important area to jump from 1900 to 2100?

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2) There are 2 coaching TT clubs in my city so I play at both. Some of these coaches played in WTTTC representing the US, some won the WTTC, some play in the MLTT and SEA Games. I see how they conduct their coaching lessons, and I don't really feel that it would be super helpful for me and the areas that I want to improve.
It is fascinating that you think that coaches with that caliber couldn't help you improve but asking this forum will. As a coach I am probably biased but I have seen people at different levels make the decision that "I don't need a coach anymore, I know what I need to work on at this point so now it's just a matter of practice" and pretty much every time those people end up stuck at the same level approximately.
 
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There are a million ways to get to 2100. And the best way to get from one level to another is going to really depend on each individual person to the point that it is hard to come up with a general answer. But if you have to choose one then serve/receive as said already and also the next few strokes after that. If at the 1900 level you are spending 90% of your training on drills doing repetitive topspin drills like so many players do there's a good chance it isn't what is really going to elevate your level. Start with a serve or a receive. Focus on your 3rd/4th ball and taking control of the rally in the shot after that either through quality or placement or both.

Footwork and fitness isn't really that important if your end goal is to get to 2100. Which, given your resistance to getting coaching, is probably the likely limit.
 
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For 1900 -> 2100?
Definitely not fitness or counter topspins or rallying.

It's brute quality on serve, serve return, and first attack. Let's call the people who have these skills "the punishers". They can punish anything loopable with a strong loop.
////////////////////////////////

I went from 0 -> 2100 from the year 2012 -> 2014.
There is generally 1 main reason people cannot reach 2100: They cannot win against the punishers.

If you rely too much on long or half long serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble serving short, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble reading serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't punish a long serve, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't push short, you lose to the punishers.
The list goes on...

Technically you can reach 2100 without being a punisher, and that's by surviving the punishment. At that point, you are like an Adam Bobrow or a Richard Dewitt. But it's way harder to be a statistical anomaly than a normal punisher.
 
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For 1900 -> 2100?
Definitely not fitness or counter topspins or rallying.

It's brute quality on serve, serve return, and first attack. Let's call the people who have these skills "the punishers". They can punish anything loopable with a strong loop.
////////////////////////////////

I went from 0 -> 2100 from the year 2012 -> 2014.
There is generally 1 main reason people cannot reach 2100: They cannot win against the punishers.

If you rely too much on long or half long serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble serving short, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble reading serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't punish a long serve, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't push short, you lose to the punishers.
The list goes on...

Technically you can reach 2100 without being a punisher, and that's by surviving the punishment. At that point, you are like an Adam Bobrow or a Richard Dewitt. But it's way harder to be a statistical anomaly than a normal punisher.
Agreed with everything except reliance on long or half long serves. With how easy it is to flip nowadays many have gone the way of serving half long to long and withstanding or counter attacking the opponents opening, even at levels way higher than 2100
 
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Agreed with everything except reliance on long or half long serves. With how easy it is to flip nowadays many have gone the way of serving half long to long and withstanding or counter attacking the opponents opening, even at levels way higher than 2100
After several years of the later gen ABS balls, many players have discovered just how damn easy it is to hit through topspin and underspin... so many players are doing pretty much what PC is explaining... players and previously unheard of levels (who are receiving competent training) now flip the daylights out of any underspin short serve... and the server now has an easier time to counter-attack that attack... and the receiver tries to hit that counter-attack.

If serve is long, one step is removed and it is bang away on both sides, since it is easier to do so.

Given this, placement and consistency win.
 
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Hi, I'm going to address your 2 points out of courtesy. I'm not looking for a debate. I respect that you have your opinion. I simply have a different opinion and I will explain why.

1) On Ejing: Firstly, like I said, I'm not doing much EJ right now. I have a setup that sits in my bag, and that's just what I use. It's not the absolute best paddle, but I trust that it does what it needs to do. When I have an error, I know that it is my error and not the paddle. I think improving my technique or reading of the game is a lot more important that finding the perfect paddle.

2) There are 2 coaching TT clubs in my city so I play at both. Some of these coaches played in WTTTC representing the US, some won the WTTC, some play in the MLTT and SEA Games. I see how they conduct their coaching lessons, and I don't really feel that it would be super helpful for me and the areas that I want to improve.

What I really want most, is to have 20 different great servers just do 500 serves to me each. Then I could just get the repetitions. I feel repetitions is what I need most. But this is not easy to arrange.

And just for context, I have already exceeded the level that I wanted to get to. I started playing about 4 years ago and I just had 1 goal at the time: I wanted to be able to loop with some power. I didn't know how to loop at that time. Fast forward to 2025, and in the best match of my life I beat a 2140 rated LP chopper (former top 3 player in the US). I didn't win by luck, I won because I was looping all of his chops and broke through. So with zero coaching (mostly just coaching myself), with zero systematic training, I have already exceeded what I thought I could achieve. I can beat 2000 and 2100 with some regularity (say 25-30% win rate). So I think I can play at that high level, but I just can't do it all the time. I think the biggest thing that holds me back (not equipment) is the reading of serves.
and just imagine (based on the training videos you shared), if you had a proper training partner, who can give you quality balls.
you would be 2400 by now and not asking about 2100 questions.
those top players/ turned coaches are also very good sparing partners.
especially you have WTTC world champions around the corner.

you can only improve as much as your training partners allow you to.

and 20-30% win rate is not you beating 2000 or 2100, it could be the they loosing against you.
So, is it you playing 2100, or they playing 1900. Most times, it is both players meeting in the middle, but that doesn't mean you from 1900 becomes 2100. For you to become or have the level to be there, I would say the win rate needs to be 60% or higher.

so good on you with zero coaching by getting thus far.
I'm sure ttd free coaching can help, but by how much.... you can share with us.

and ps, you don't need 20 great servers
you just need to learn to read spin and one great server is enough.
 
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There are a million ways to get to 2100. And the best way to get from one level to another is going to really depend on each individual person to the point that it is hard to come up with a general answer. But if you have to choose one then serve/receive as said already and also the next few strokes after that. If at the 1900 level you are spending 90% of your training on drills doing repetitive topspin drills like so many players do there's a good chance it isn't what is really going to elevate your level. Start with a serve or a receive. Focus on your 3rd/4th ball and taking control of the rally in the shot after that either through quality or placement or both.

Footwork and fitness isn't really that important if your end goal is to get to 2100. Which, given your resistance to getting coaching, is probably the likely limit.
This is actually why I don't want to get coaching. Whenever I see the coaches, they are doing drills focused on these repetitive topspin drills. Hit a BH, hit a middle FH, hit a wide FH, return to BH, etc. They look rhythmic and fancy, but they don't really simulate winning and losing points. I'd much rather focus on the key issues that result in winning and losing a point. As many people seem to agree, it is the first 3 or 4 touches.

Not to mention, coaching is expensive. Let's just say $80 per session. There are literally 200 things I would rather spend $80 on...
I'm not trying to be a pro, just playing for fun. And as I said, I've made a lot of progress on my own just playing for fun.
 
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For 1900 -> 2100?
Definitely not fitness or counter topspins or rallying.

It's brute quality on serve, serve return, and first attack. Let's call the people who have these skills "the punishers". They can punish anything loopable with a strong loop.
////////////////////////////////

I went from 0 -> 2100 from the year 2012 -> 2014.
There is generally 1 main reason people cannot reach 2100: They cannot win against the punishers.

If you rely too much on long or half long serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble serving short, you lose to the punishers.
If you have trouble reading serves, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't punish a long serve, you lose to the punishers.
If you can't push short, you lose to the punishers.
The list goes on...

Technically you can reach 2100 without being a punisher, and that's by surviving the punishment. At that point, you are like an Adam Bobrow or a Richard Dewitt. But it's way harder to be a statistical anomaly than a normal punisher.
Thanks. This makes a lot of sense, and is generally what I concluded as well.

But let me ask you, to avoid the punishers, are you basically just left to serve short every time? What serve can you do other than just a short serve with some kind of underspin?
 
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Thanks. This makes a lot of sense, and is generally what I concluded as well.

But let me ask you, to avoid the punishers, are you basically just left to serve short every time? What serve can you do other than just a short serve with some kind of underspin?
actually long serve but “hide” the spin
the pro serve is not slow, they are fast
what i mean “fast” is: they make the ball “jump” to you and give you little time to determine what spin it is
 
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Thanks. This makes a lot of sense, and is generally what I concluded as well.

But let me ask you, to avoid the punishers, are you basically just left to serve short every time? What serve can you do other than just a short serve with some kind of underspin?
You don’t have to serve short underspin.

You can serve short sidespin or short sidetopspin. Just punish the flick.
 
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For receive, I would take the opposite side and have my friend do 100+ serves to me and I would try to loop it. As long as the serve was long, I felt like I was doing pretty well and successfully looping 80%-90% of the serves. (Actually when I beat my 2150 chopper friend, one of the key differences is that I looped his serve). The area that gave me trouble was when the ball was landing just long of the table. I could never find the angle to loop the ball without hitting myself on the table.
It depends on your opponent whether you should loop it or not. Some opponents that are strong in the open rally will pressure you harder if you loop the serve. So a push might be the better option against these opponents.

Some opponents have a very strong 3rd ball after a push, so if you manage to loop of flick their serve, you can completely dismantle their game.
 
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It depends on your opponent whether you should loop it or not. Some opponents that are strong in the open rally will pressure you harder if you loop the serve. So a push might be the better option against these opponents.

Some opponents have a very strong 3rd ball after a push, so if you manage to loop of flick their serve, you can completely dismantle their game.
that is so true.
this is why it is impossible to have text book answers for real life situations.

one needs to train well for both.
and pushing to different locations, with different spin (variations), or looping with different location, spin (variation) and arc. will all yield different behaviors from the opponent (back with they own styles/skills)
 
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1) Fitness and stamina
2) Serves
3) Receives
4) Topspin strokes
5) Counter loops

Question for 2100+ players. What area do you think is most important to improve from 1900 to 2100? How would you rank them in order?
6) Defense, even more important than serves and receives when they don't work. If you can take a big shot even once, then your odds of winning increases substantially.
 
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This is actually why I don't want to get coaching. Whenever I see the coaches, they are doing drills focused on these repetitive topspin drills. Hit a BH, hit a middle FH, hit a wide FH, return to BH, etc. They look rhythmic and fancy, but they don't really simulate winning and losing points. I'd much rather focus on the key issues that result in winning and losing a point. As many people seem to agree, it is the first 3 or 4 touches.

Not to mention, coaching is expensive. Let's just say $80 per session. There are literally 200 things I would rather spend $80 on...
I'm not trying to be a pro, just playing for fun. And as I said, I've made a lot of progress on my own just playing for fun.
Ahahahahahaha but so very observant true.

There are very good reasons why such coaches should and many do insist on at the table drills for strokes, footwork, and combinations.

Such coaches rarely link what they are doing and why as to how you can see the ball better and how these practices make you better able to know and cope with the likely things that happen and how to win points, games, and matches.

This is a whole other area of teaching that many high paid coaches do not get into much, so do, many do not.

I totally understand Tensor BH's reluctance to commit big money to a process that he believes will not benefit him as much as he financially and emotionally pays.

it is tough to find a knowledgeable and balanced coach who can work with adult learners to get them in the right effective direction of becoming fundamentally sound and how to subconsciously think, act, and win.
 
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There are a million ways to get to 2100. And the best way to get from one level to another is going to really depend on each individual person to the point that it is hard to come up with a general answer. But if you have to choose one then serve/receive as said already and also the next few strokes after that. If at the 1900 level you are spending 90% of your training on drills doing repetitive topspin drills like so many players do there's a good chance it isn't what is really going to elevate your level. Start with a serve or a receive. Focus on your 3rd/4th ball and taking control of the rally in the shot after that either through quality or placement or both.

Footwork and fitness isn't really that important if your end goal is to get to 2100. Which, given your resistance to getting coaching, is probably the likely limit.
We can go on and on and on about what constitutes quality for every basic shot - serve, receive, push, loop, rally ball, etc... but having sound fundamentals, a good read of opponent's ball, and variation, placement, consistency all contribute to higher level at all levels.

I appreciate the comment about quality of shot being important.

We should have a complete different discussion on what makes quality of each kind of shot.

That would be at least 5 or many more different outstanding discussion that would benefit all.
 
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Ahahahahahaha but so very observant true.

There are very good reasons why such coaches should and many do insist on at the table drills for strokes, footwork, and combinations.

Such coaches rarely link what they are doing and why as to how you can see the ball better and how these practices make you better able to know and cope with the likely things that happen and how to win points, games, and matches.

This is a whole other area of teaching that many high paid coaches do not get into much, so do, many do not.

I totally understand Tensor BH's reluctance to commit big money to a process that he believes will not benefit him as much as he financially and emotionally pays.

it is tough to find a knowledgeable and balanced coach who can work with adult learners to get them in the right effective direction of becoming fundamentally sound and how to subconsciously think, act, and win.
While I understand why such "anti" comment on such coaches exist, and while not all coaches are the same. I also understand how such drills, are good for service return too.

The 1900 players may think he is only doing topspins of bh, fh, wide fh, then back in bh. While I'm sure many 2100 + plaeyrs will agree with me here is that what 1900 doesn't know is when he is doing all this, there is the full movement - footwork, weight transfer, spinning of the ball, recovery, reading of the spin, generating of the spin - both physical and mental gains.

Just based on some of tb's videos, his footwork isn't great. So I won't be surprised he will be late or in the wrong position for his service return shots and probably slow recovery and what not. I said many times in his training videos thread, that training partner quality is not great. the partner is not forcing him to move better, or to be more prepared.

I would imagine, those WTTC champions, are way better than his partner and would force him into uncomfortable positions, of which tb will struggle (even look really ugly) -and if he can cope with it one day, or master it, his understanding of the game will be better, and so will his understanding of service return - of which is just the understanding of spin, and the control of the ball in the returning of the service, backed with correct footwork movment, timing and execution.

BH top spin, is the same logic as BH flick.
FH top spin, is the same logic as FH flick
Footwork movements of tops spin, is the same logic as pushes (drop or long)
Brushing the ball is brushing the ball, no matter if it is top, side or bottom of the ball.

While USA is very expensive on one one one coaching, and maybe tb sees zero value. I also see zero value with his freebie training partner (I know that is harsh words, but reality is reality).
He needs trainers to make him better, and he needs someone there speaking with him.
Else, you get what you pay for. Maybe he could find another trainer for free, or maybe he needs to find higher levels and pay some or little money for better quality, because it is only possible if there is some trade - not everyone operates like a charity and will be willing to do it longer terms.

I have learnt something as a coach, especially with adult learners and tb has the same problem.
he thinks going from 0 to 1900, is successful and he did it over what, 4 years. This is good on him, but what he doesn't know is, this zero to something growth is normal, because zero to anything is expected and achievable with self learning. But the problem is, once you get to a certain level and need to move up even more, ie, from 1900 to 2100, or 2100 to 2300, or 2500 to 2600 for example, those climb are a lot harder and will require specialists.
Especially he will need to unlearn bad habits he has in his self learning.

And the most important part that I spoted is, tb is very adament on what he wants. his cup is probably full.
so, could he take in things like what I am saying? I don't think so, because he may only want to hear things that suits him and would probably brush off anythign that has anything to do with coaching. So he would continue to explore his self learning. Maybe it will work (which I will bless him if it does), or maybe it doesn't work. You do get crowds that think coaching is not necessary, which is okay - but I am typing all those, so readers can have a different view on how topspin drills do add value to overally play and I see it so often on how some little coaching, helps with the table tennis IQ improvement, and therefore leads to various improvements in the game.

Recently I'm helping a player on her BH topspin - living underspin balls.
while working on her BH loop, her BH flick also improves greatly.
And then you have those that think it is two different things and why waste time on the foundation, and just want to start off some where else (on a higher floor). While I work with semi pros most of the time, the theory of foundation is really the same.
 
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I actually feel this is where Victor's post will help.
He had a world champion turned coach coaching him and he improves greatly.

While tb "almost beat" Victor in a friendly, of which Victor was probably fooling around (his words to me was since he was in between matches in a tournament and wanted to rest and not play), but....he had to play with tb and in tb's eyes, it could be another match he almost beaten 2300 players. According to tb, the scores were all close, like 7 or 8 points if I recall, but Victor said the gap in level different was quite vast.

This is where seeing some of Victor's training videos of that world champion is really needed. :)
 
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