What is the most important area to jump from 1900 to 2100?

[schrodingerskoalabear]

To echo a few other comments, this has been a very helpful thread for me personally. I am in the same boat as @TensorBackhand in terms not having any coaching currently but for budgeting reasons.

In the absence of that, I found that I have been able to improve my game play by relying primarily on (a) diligently video-taping my training & games and then watching them over for issues in basic technique, etc (b) playing more but with specific focus points and (c) asking better/same rated players to play/train with me with me

I recommend watching yourself play to everyone who wants to improve, even if you have a coach. It really has been a game changer for me. It really is a horror movie at first lol but it gets better.

In terms of the discussion, for me personally ( a bang average intermediate player), all of my focus in the last 4 months has been (a) serve receive (b) serve recovery (c) 3rd balls (d) intangibles (watching the ball onto racket, etc.) Serve is definitely going to be on that list now.

Just wanted to pipe in to thank everyone here. This thread is what makes this forum a joy to be in as an aspiring TT hobby player loll

 

[schrodingerskoalabear]

Your issue with receiving the serves was not really that you didn't read the spin correctly, it is that you didn't read the depth correctly and were not able to cover the fast serves to the middle and backhand.

What is the best way to approach reading the depth of the serve? Does this mean, just like one tries to watch contact point and racket movement, that one should focus intently on where the first bounce of the serve is?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

What is the best way to approach reading the depth of the serve? Does this mean, just like one tries to watch contact point and racket movement, that one should focus intently on where the first bounce of the serve is?

Yep, this.

 

[Grumms]

When going up the ladder how do you guys play more "aggressive"?
In training when doing drills I am performing really good etc. but in an actual match I am blocking more or go 100% loops that go out. I tried lowering from 100% to like 50% but then they can chose where to block and I am in the backfoot. That pressure makes me want to loop 100% or safely block nothing in between.

Match I am talking about: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/club-championship.37289/ I am the one in black/red
I feel like all those forehand topspin trainings was for nothing when I am 80% of the time forced to block because I can't or didn't practise counterlooping enough. And a 2300RC showed us in the last tournament when he beat the best player in my county (1900RC) that you can win without having to counterloop a single time anyway.
I also watched this match many times and feel like I couldn't predict where he is gonna place his serve or balls on my side and once he got a topspin going it never ended. So I want to understand what and how I can improve in terms of my placement and everything.
Is it because I practise my drills in way where I loop in a way that my practise partner can block it safely back that I forgot how to loop in a way to make it harder for them to bring it back? How can I reach the next level - someone like me I mean. Please don't just say footwork and placement. Be a bit more concrete if possible. Maybe better players can go through their thought process on what they think about where they need to loop (placement wise) in a match. In my game it felt like he had no specific weakness that I could have abused more.

3 first point, you step back right after you hit the ball. Victim attitude. Change your attitude, don't be afraid of the return shots of your opponent.

 

[songdavid98]

What is the best way to approach reading the depth of the serve? Does this mean, just like one tries to watch contact point and racket movement, that one should focus intently on where the first bounce of the serve is?

No, you just look at how fast and high it goes.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

No, you just look at how fast and high it goes.

Which you can get a read on by looking at what he mentioned before the ball is actually moving, and at which point you'd probably be too late to react to a fast long serve.

 

[songdavid98]

When going up the ladder how do you guys play more "aggressive"?
In training when doing drills I am performing really good etc. but in an actual match I am blocking more or go 100% loops that go out. I tried lowering from 100% to like 50% but then they can chose where to block and I am in the backfoot. That pressure makes me want to loop 100% or safely block nothing in between.

Match I am talking about: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/club-championship.37289/ I am the one in black/red
I feel like all those forehand topspin trainings was for nothing when I am 80% of the time forced to block because I can't or didn't practise counterlooping enough. And a 2300RC showed us in the last tournament when he beat the best player in my county (1900RC) that you can win without having to counterloop a single time anyway.
I also watched this match many times and feel like I couldn't predict where he is gonna place his serve or balls on my side and once he got a topspin going it never ended. So I want to understand what and how I can improve in terms of my placement and everything.
Is it because I practise my drills in way where I loop in a way that my practise partner can block it safely back that I forgot how to loop in a way to make it harder for them to bring it back? How can I reach the next level - someone like me I mean. Please don't just say footwork and placement. Be a bit more concrete if possible. Maybe better players can go through their thought process on what they think about where they need to loop (placement wise) in a match. In my game it felt like he had no specific weakness that I could have abused more.

Serve short, push short, attack first, attack hard into his forehand.

Lots of players like you think you should mix long and short serves. But your long serve isn’t even very good. It’s better for you to just only serve short.

For context, I have more trouble against a 1700 who only serve short no spin than against a 2000 who does every serve variation. The 2000 player just gives me free easy points right away. The 1700 doesnt.

Variation sucks when you are picking options that suck. Variation is good when you are picking options that are good.

 

[OvrChkn]

yeah, these are always not fun. Do you go in and push, or do you attack.
Attacking requires very good judgement and skill.
Most of the time, we just do BH flicks (since BH flicks is the solution to 99% of the serves today), but I'm still old school and if there is just some chance of that ball landing the second bounce on that white line/edge, it is long enough for me to top spin over the table.

So either top spin over the table, or wait for it to go past the table and top spin.

But the 1st one.... you could need to buy new rubbers if your judgement is out

If they are just high enough short or half-long, I'll attack on FH. Otherwise, I'll push, but the sidespin makes it tricky to return. I just misjudge the spacing I need to lift it and it'll go into the net half of the time. I think I just don't let the ball develop like I need to, but I will try to BH flick it more on that side.

I'm slowly converging to the Hybrid -> Chinese rubber pipeline with my longer strokes.

most people have no idea how important short game and pushing is.

Return serve with short push, or deep long push are some times one of the best serve return techniques and I often have to tell players not to over complicate matters.

Your decision of pushing long to get the rally going is perfect, because you are taking away the advantage from his serves and making it open play and equal chance for both of you to win the point - very very good decision. Better than risking a bad service return and giving the points away.

This is chess - if you tame your opponent long enough, especially not allowing him to have his way of serve and 3rd ball, and if he gets agitated, then that is perfect strategy and hopefully it suits your narrative more.
Now this is more like court side coaching now - something I'm guessing tb has never experience before. There is so much to learn from coach side coaching that I think he is missing out.

I want to get better at the short push. Deep long on what I think will be their weaker side or based on hip angle is typically my go to. If I see the hips are more 45 degrees, I'll push to the hip that's in front. Square hips I'll make more of an adjustment and go more mid to their hips to get them to make a decision on which side to take. At my rating (~1400-1600), this works well to give me the spacing to set up my loop. I'm just inconsistent with my own movement, spacing to the table, and strokes at this point in my training. Trying to focus more on not rushing and taking my time in matches to have success.

 

[Zezima]

3 first point, you step back right after you hit the ball. Victim attitude. Change your attitude, don't be afraid of the return shots of your opponent.

I am tall 196cm I cant just stay close to the table. Entire middle is my elbow which means that I cant play an effective ball and my predictment of the next ball has to be even faster when close to the table. I can't even do that when I am a bit further away.

 

[Zezima]

Serve short, push short, attack first, attack hard into his forehand.

Lots of players like you think you should mix long and short serves. But your long serve isn’t even very good. It’s better for you to just only serve short.

For context, I have more trouble against a 1700 who only serve short no spin than against a 2000 who does every serve variation. The 2000 player just gives me free easy points right away. The 1700 doesnt.

Variation sucks when you are picking options that suck. Variation is good when you are picking options that are good.

This is my big points currently. I do too many variations of services but feels like I didn't perfect anything (except maybe sidebackspin serve) but I get a push (from his FH or BH back) that I can't attack well its either half long spinny or I just push it back but he gets to attack because I can't keep that half long push of his short enough.


I actually feel like as long as he doesn't return my long serves parallel I was getting some points even though they were bad. If I do them too fast I am not ready for the return aswell. So I agree I should stick to more short serves but again if I can't attack his return I end up blocking the entire rally again.
My strength is my block and topspin from mid distance. Over table I am not so effective. I need a slow long ball to dominate the rally. And that is hard to achieve with a short serve. Because those get flicked or they push easily short/half longish back.
I will practise more to keep the short return of them short back or just attack it. Its painful when they get to attack first on your own serve.

 

[Khimmi]

Hello, your opponent is playing very slowly.
You have plenty of opportunities to counterattack.
When you serve with a slice backhand, you hit the first backhand topspin well.
I think your opponent doesn't like shots with a lot of spin. Again, I think he's slow. If you counterattack his body or his backhand, I think you'd beat him.
Best regards.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Hello, your opponent is playing very slowly.
You have plenty of opportunities to counterattack.
When you serve with a slice backhand, you hit the first backhand topspin well.
I think your opponent doesn't like shots with a lot of spin. Again, I think he's slow. If you counterattack his body or his backhand, I think you'd beat him.
Best regards.

He has no chance of beating his opponent, because his opponent isn't even trying in this video. The reason he is playing slow is because TB is so far below his level but he is being friendly and letting him at least have a small chance to make a few shots.

 

[Khimmi]

Sorry, I meant @Zezima. Hugs.

 

[Der_Echte]

I think you touched on a very important part.

these are adult learners, with little hours and trying to achieve something (on their own, with no professional help), that is considered technique and experience related.

if I was tb, I would pay stronger players to just serve to me.
but maybe he doesn't even want to do that (some people don't want to spend money on anything.)

Ahahahahahahah.

This is EXACTLY what I do when a much better player offers to do anything for 5-10 minutes if he or she has available.

I am the crazy one who does not ask to do macho man stuff, but to practice serve return. Always a surprise to a better player, they expect some power hit practice reps.

 

[Der_Echte]

All the ones that look the same (the ones that he serves the most) are all sidetopspin.
He serves 1 fast no spin to you down-the-line.
His reverse sidespin serve has some backspin.

I don't know Victor's level, but he's clearly just babysitting you

Victor is 2200 USATT level like for appetizer starters, but he makes his rating look like an organ donor fire sale at times so he can skull fux hiz opponents at big tourneys.

A LOT of LA and So-Cal and Bay Area rolls that way..

 

[Der_Echte]

waiting for OP (tb) to answer.
probably practice/fun match, because he did say he doesn't play in rating/competition tournaments

The area his is in has gazillions of legit 2000 usatt level players sporting 1500 ratings.

It is a competitive sport down there to see how under-rated you can be and turn it on occasionally to shock the monkey.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I see Victor is a min 2200, and has crossed 2300 just few months ago.

https://usatt.simplycompete.com/userAccount/trn/164612

what tb is lacking is actual matches (real ones).
without real matches, and the experience gained, you could be legit 2000 but sporting 1500, means you only look good, but you can't win.

LYC I know is a solid 2800 player, but lacks international experience.
so he could become a 2700 some times (or lower), and like last night, a 2900

training and match experience goes hand in hand

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I agree that Victor is only playing 50%.
Serve and receive is difficult. We’ve touched this topic many times. First learn to receive when you KNOW what serve it is.
So if there is some serve you don’t know how to receive just ask him to serve the same 20 or 50 times (or more !).and learn a few possible receives

Then next step is to be able to see the serve. Which I suck at but even pros tell me sometimes you just don’t know right away and you have to watch the ball. So learn to be patient and not play the ball too fast but watch it more is key.

 

[SleepyMaster]

I see Victor is a min 2200, and has crossed 2300 just few months ago.

https://usatt.simplycompete.com/userAccount/trn/164612

what tb is lacking is actual matches (real ones).
without real matches, and the experience gained, you could be legit 2000 but sporting 1500, means you only look good, but you can't win.

LYC I know is a solid 2800 player, but lacks international experience.
so he could become a 2700 some times (or lower), and like last night, a 2900

training and match experience goes hand in hand

What rank you estimate this players would be according to usatt? I did trained with one of them

 

[TensorBackhand]

What rank you estimate this players would be according to usatt? I did trained with one of them

I think shot quality is 2400-2500?? You both seem to be playing at a noticeably higher quality shots than the top players in our area. But there are also a quite a few errors. So i dont know how the results would be. Is there any rating system in Ukraine?

In our area, the top serious players only really get to about 2400. The hobby players who are just playing for fun peak around 2100

Btw i also often play with a Ukrainian guy here who is about 2200. I think he gives Victor a good challenge as well usually